Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Source

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rtalbigr
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by rtalbigr »

My dunder pit is about two years old, I guess. It's not in a sealed container, it's just covered well to keep bugs out and I never open it. I have it built so I can take and add through tubing w/o disturbing the cap. To my understanding the longer it "ages" the better it is.

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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by Barney Fife »

Whiskeytrip, I don't save-up a bunch of dunder and let it get funky, and I make what I consider a -very- full-flavored rum. I like to reuse my fresh, still hot dunder for many generations(up to 6 or 7), but I've never gotten into the dunder pit thing. I did try to at one time, but having severe allergies to mold, when i saw a thick top layer forming in my dunder pit, I got spooked and tossed it all. My rum's just fine the way it is(and beats most any commercial rum already, in my non-humble opinion. ;) .

The dunder pit deal will surely add to the profile, but it isn't a necessity, is what I'm trying to say.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by whiskeytripping »

Good deal Barney Fife , thanks for your info, the whole Dunder pit thing would give my wife just 1 more thing to nag at me about :ebiggrin:
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by frozenthunderbolt »

Hey W.T.

I recycle hot dunder to disolve molases/sugar for my next ferment. THink i'm up to about gen 15?16? now. I also have a dunder 'pit' - a 10L plastic bucket with a lid I keep under my computer table.

When i want to use some (either boiled and added to a ferment, or in the still with a strip run) i pour some out, and then once the dunder from the still is blood heat I top it back up again.
I haven't ever had a cap like LWTS or some of the other have had on top, but it does get good and mouldy and adds a woderful depth of flavour to my rum. It took about 8-9 generations useing 25%-50% hot dunder before I started to get a really good rum. It will only get better as i start to add aged dunder into the equation. :mrgreen:
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by HookLine »

frozenthunderbolt wrote:It took about 8-9 generations useing 25%-50% hot dunder before I started to get a really good rum.
That is my experience. Takes a few generations, and just gets better the more you recycle it.

•••••••••
Barney Fife wrote:The dunder pit deal will surely add to the profile, but it isn't a necessity, is what I'm trying to say.
Agree with that. Can make perfectly good rum without using microbe matured dunder.

•••••••••

Dolmetscher

Dunder has two meanings, best I can tell.

1. The liquid remaining in the boiler after the wash (stripping, low wines) run has removed all the alcohol is generally known as stillage. Rum stillage is called dunder.

2. The yeast rich foam on the top of active rum ferments that is used to seed the next ferment with live yeast.

Most here use the first meaning.

You can just recycle the hot dunder from the boiler back into the fermenter to help dissolve all the ingredients, and pasteurise the fermenter, and mostly to add a bunch of flavour. (Let the ferment mix cool down before adding live yeast, of course).

Or let the dunder mature with the right microbes in a loosely covered container for a few months or longer, then use some of it in the final spirit run, or add to ferments.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by King Of Hearts »

thecroweater wrote:If i can't get preservative free molasses I use brown sugar . It has a nice light rum flavor , thinkin still be more flavor than treacle and the like :? not sure why anyone would consider it unresearched or be worried about it . Its molasses and sugar no big mystery about it
Light or dark brown sugar? Also making dark caramel from white sugar is pretty easy. I've done it for a Scotch ale I made, totally ferment-able. I bet that would add some good flavors.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by rumbuff »

I started adding aged dunder to my rum a month or so ago, and it makes a big difference! I just age in a 5 gallon glass carboy with a coffee filter on top, and I add back whatever I take out. I don't bother to boil it first either, just straight into the fermenter with the yeast. I notice alot more complexity in the aroma, and more smells of butter and caramel. I haven't tried it yet, as I just did the spirit run last weekend, but I'm really looking forward to it!
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by whiskeytripping »

I FINALLY found Pure blackstrap molasses, it was Brer Rabbit brand, blackstrap molasses, unsulphered molasses no preservatives. MAN that stuff is Expensive :wtf: 4.99$ for 12oz. But I'm gonna use this along with the easy to obtain Grandmas molasses, and Panela to hopefully make some kick ass Rum. I advise people looking for it to never give up, its just TOO expensive to use it exclusively to make Rum, but I'm just wanting to supplement it to get a good Dunder pit up and going then I will just use the panela and Grandmas. I will be needing to do the math on this to figure up a 6 gallon batch so I can get started.

I also found this online if anyone is looking for it. It seems to be some pretty good quality stuff. I'm just happy to have found it. :D
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by kobold »

my process: at the moment i use 4l stock feed/blackstrap molasses + 4kg raw cane sugar for a 28l wash. i always recycle the dunder and i like the results ... and i guesstimate it will need longish aging on oak, maybe even a year or more... so, just today i bought 25kg of sucanat (aka muscovado or rapadura). i will be using 6kg/28l of this without any molasses, but still recycling my original dunder. i am hoping this will result in smoother & lighter rum for immediate consumption, so i can let the rough one age undisturbed. i paid $155 for the sucanat, but it's organic.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by thecroweater »

King Of Hearts wrote:
thecroweater wrote:If i can't get preservative free molasses I use brown sugar . It has a nice light rum flavor , thinkin still be more flavor than treacle and the like :? not sure why anyone would consider it unresearched or be worried about it . Its molasses and sugar no big mystery about it
Light or dark brown sugar? Also making dark caramel from white sugar is pretty easy. I've done it for a Scotch ale I made, totally ferment-able. I bet that would add some good flavors.
Sorry about the delay in replying musta missed this post
Light brown I add brown and raw sugar to my sulfured molasses and found that way it will still fully ferment out but I have tried just brown and raw sugar and it also makes a very light white rum drink that is quite drinkable
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by PisgahViewDistillery »

Way late on my post, but hey I still found it. In the states the best molasses I have found for the price is made by " Golden Heritage Foods" marketed under sweet select and barkmans. It is very high quality food grade molasses made for the restaurant business. My local Cash and Carry stocks it for $12.99g usd. In my recipe I use half molasses and half brown sugar with aged dunder. I use brown sugar mainly because I am buying it wholesale for just pennies more than white sugar. To maintain consistency I suggest finding a yeast strain you like and propagating yourself. It's very easy to keep a good yeast culture and it results in a much quicker start with a more reliable wash.
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Re: Define "sugarhead"

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Alchemist75 wrote:I used grandmas molasses and the ferment finished out in less than 3 days at what I calculated to be less than 1% ethanol.
Alchemist75 wrote:Is it really possible to do a decent rum with nothing but molasses and water?
Yes its very possible, how do you think most of the rum distilleries world wide make their rum, they sure dont add extra sugar.
Its how Ive made all of my rum for a long time now.
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Re: Define "sugarhead"

Post by thecroweater »

There are lots of types of molasses and some have a lot more fermenables than others. I'm not sure of the exact industry terms but the first strike molasses where they have removed the raw sugar it still sweet to taste and highly fermentable. After that some chemicals (mainly sulphur) is added and its stripped an gain and maybe even again. This stuff is good for stock feed as its high in nitrogen and other trace minerals but darn low in sugar and quite bitter to taste. Than ya got molasses from the refined raw sugar and that molasses is very high in sugar after the first process, in fact it can crystalize if left sitting around and reprocessed it will be just like the stock feed molasses. Adding sugar back to this is stripped out molasses is absolutely not a sugar head in my view as if you and reading raw sugar to stripped molasses you are not actually adding something extra but replacing what was removed to return the product to a more natural unaltered state.
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Re: Define "sugarhead"

Post by Saltbush Bill »

thecroweater wrote:After that some chemicals (mainly sulphur) is added and its stripped an gain and maybe even again.
Why do the fellas from the local mill tell me that there is no sulfur used in the process Crow ?
Happy for you to show documentation that added sulfur is the case.
As far as I am aware there are only two main types of molasses produced in AU.
Stockfeed Molasses is what is left over after the cane syrup is boiled under vacuum and the sugar crystals are removed.
Most Stockfeed is more than adequate for our purposes, having said that I know that there are areas in the south of the country were people seem to get an inferior product.
The other variety is what is sold for "human consumption" and it comes from the molasses that remains in / on the raw sugar crystals before they are further processed to make white sugar.
I know that at least a couple of fellas who kick around the different forums have experience in the industry, maybe they could pipe up and put in their two bobs worth.
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Re: Define "sugarhead"

Post by thecroweater »

There are a few thousand gallons of a third kind of molasses just up the road from me which was extracted by refining raw sugar. I only know what I've read but next time your down we can go to the local CRT and pull the lid off a pot. The sulphur smell will make your eyes water, its so bitter you can't hardly keep it in your mouth. The fermentable sugar so low the yield is just crazy, maybe one litre or so out of an 80 litre ferment. So after cuts you would be lucky to get a bottle at drinking strength, cheaper to buy Bundy.
I should mention I don't use that crap anymore and I don't know if stuff is done to it once it leaves the mill which is for sure possible. I will say even the molasses I do use now seems well down on sugar to what a lot of you northern types report, it will ferment without re-added any sugar back into it but the yield is a bit disappointing. The way I see it the work is about the same the result is about the same and the gas cost is the same for a poor yield as a good yield so until I get higher brix molasses I'll be replacing the raw sugar.
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Re: Define "sugarhead"

Post by tuner »

thecroweater wrote:There are a few thousand gallons of a third kind of molasses just up the road from me which was extracted by refining raw sugar. I only know what I've read but next time your down we can go to the local CRT and pull the lid off a pot. The sulphur smell will make your eyes water, its so bitter you can't hardly keep it in your mouth. The fermentable sugar so low the yield is just crazy, maybe one litre or so out of an 80 litre ferment. So after cuts you would be lucky to get a bottle at drinking strength, cheaper to buy Bundy.
I should mention I don't use that crap anymore and I don't know if stuff is done to it once it leaves the mill which is for sure possible. I will say even the molasses I do use now seems well down on sugar to what a lot of you northern types report, it will ferment without re-added any sugar back into it but the yield is a bit disappointing. The way I see it the work is about the same the result is about the same and the gas cost is the same for a poor yield as a good yield so until I get higher brix molasses I'll be replacing the raw sugar.

Hi All,
You are so rigth "thecroweater" - I got one of these 20 litre pails of molasses to make RUM. Was bitter with a sulphur smell, was hoping that it would change with fermenting - after 4 weeks - I put in in the still last nite to do a stripper run and stopped at 50% ABV cause the sulfer was over powering.. don't know what I'm going to do with the STRIP but the dunder is going down the drain! Going to stick with all grains for a bit. To bad we can't send smells over the Web!
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by LWTCS »

Here in the states the best they can do is render out the sucrose to 50%. Any extraction beyond that becomes a waste of energy.

50% is definitely an acrid, gawd awful, metallic mouth feel.
Once the farmers started buying to supplement livestock feed, the cost really got expensive.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by Tapeman »

LWTCS wrote:Here in the states the best they can do is render out the sucrose to 50%. Any extraction beyond that becomes a waste of energy.

50% is definitely an acrid, gawd awful, metallic mouth feel.
Once the farmers started buying to supplement livestock feed, the cost really got expensive.
I can get Crosby's molasses (from Nova Scotia) for around $9/gallon at Sam's Club. That's a food grade with plenty of sugars but it still needs a bump of brown sugar to make a worthwhile brix. It makes a decent strong flavored drink with good yield.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by thecroweater »

Try to get raw (turbinado) nothing wrong with brow sugar per say but it is after all white sugar with a little molasses added. Kind of seems a waste of money if you have molasses handy, pretty much can say you are adding white sugar to bump your rum wash. If you read back in this thread you will see I have used brown sugar when stuck and it makes a very light maybe Bacardi style rum / molasses vodka, its not bad but not a real rum. I used it to make various styles of coconut rum. I have done molasses and white sugar too but raw sugar is miles better.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by The Baker »

Just found my eight (?) year old pail of molasses, probably sixteen litres left.

Tasted it, sweetish, no sulphur smell, little if any bitterness. Bought it from the local dairy supply.
When I catch up with what I already have to distil I will try some rum.

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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Goooooo Baker , dont go messing that up by putting sugar in it ...let that molasses shine :thumbup:
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by thecroweater »

yeah the molasses I get now from central highland molasses is much better, no sulphur and readily ferments but its not really what you would call sweet. I get around 8 to 8.5% with the sugar so I expect without it I will get between 3.5 and 4.5% , not shocking but still on the low side.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by Saltbush Bill »

thecroweater wrote: but its not really what you would call sweet.
If you think good Molasses tastes sweet Crow your sadly mistaken.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by thecroweater »

I know that but I also know what your local guy supplies and its not the same product as we were getting here. That krud from CRT would make ya wretch, I asked them what in blazes was in it and they couldn't/ wouldn't tell me. As I said that stuff is much better, I need to order more so when I ring Jim I will ask him if he ended up getter a refractometer ( a while back he said he was getting one) and if he has I'll ask what the brix is. The really weird thing is I found out about this supplier not from locals but from a guy in South Australia as he supplies the CRT stores there but not the ones around here, crazy.
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