Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Source

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Dnderhead
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by Dnderhead »

sulfur dioxide is used to remove the sugar from "green" or unripe cane.i thank its a proses similar to ripening fruit with ethylene? gas.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by rumbuff »

The other thing to remember about flavor is the yeast. I know there's been a lot of discussion about which yeast to use, and I have been using Fliechmans baking yeast, but my very fist batch had lalvin 1116, as well as the baking yeast, so I did that on my latest batch. It also has 5th generation dunder in it, but the aroma is totally different than last time, not that it was bad before, but there's strong notes of vanilla and caramel, and it smells sweeter! I cant wait to run it, I think the next batch will be 1116 only, just to dial in my yeast. But I would definatly recomend using dunder.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by Dolmetscher »

I definitely want to talk about yeast. I've been told by basically everyone that yeast is the dark horse, that few pay close enough attention to, but can make or break your flavor. I've seen that some high quality distilleries like "Labbot & Graham" that make Woodford Reserves Bourbon have a highly specific strain of yeast cultured specially for their bourbon. That's incredible, and I'm sure that is a master chemist with a $150,000/yr salary for perfecting the process.

From a home distiller's perspective, I do not have a background in chemistry. I basically rely on what "the community" suggests. Then I narrow it down to a couple of choices, and then I choose, and tweak. Same goes for yeast nutrients. I see recipes that have simple additives like crushed up Flintstone's vitamins, all the way up to specific chemical additives. I take a "less is more" approach for home distillation; for two reasons.
  • I'm not trying to maximize profit by ensuring that every microgram of fermentable sugar be converted into ethanol. If I thought I would get a 14.6% ABV mash, and it only made it to 12%... C'est la vie.
    I know that distilled spirits used to be made in caves, in jungles, and in grass huts, with crushed rotten fruit and kettles of boiling cane poles... breaking out my Mr. Wizard's World Chemistry Set seems to cheapen the experience for me. But that's just me.
That being said, however... Just because the idea of "keeping it real" sounds and feels romantic to me, there's no reason to ignore basic science. I'm not willing to use esoteric chemicals to steroid up my yeast cells, but if adding some citric acid from the health food store, or crushing up a multivitamin or two will yield a better rum... let's do it!

All of that being said... Does anyone have some reference material for which yeast one should use to make what product? Brewing beer is easy... use Lager yeast for lagers, and Ale yeast for Ales. You can get fancy and maybe use a Montrechet yeast for a fruit-based beer, or champagne yeast for a honey-style beer. But for Rum, Vodka, Bourbon, Brandy, etc... how do you know?

And Yeast Nutrients... What's the deal? I would love some material on that subject. All my internet searches produce a ton of variations on the theme, but there is no chemistry as to WHY this works, or what yeast really need. I thought they just ate sugar, pissed out ethanol, and farted carbon dioxide; end of story. But when it comes to the subject of yeast nutrient, people tend to just kinda trail off, and say something like, "Well yeast cells need other nutrients to really thrive." But the "other" seems to be difficult to define.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by Dnderhead »

with yeast I tend to go along with what the product is derived from..whisky is distilled beer,so beer yeast it is.and from the pick of them I like the scotch ale yeast the best...brandy,,this is made from wine,white wine makes the best unless your making fruit brandy,in this case you are after the "fruity flavors" so use a yeast that complements the flavor your after.rum I dont do enough to give a good answer.but I did help one other member and we came to the conclusion bread/bakers yeast was as good as any.with neutral from sugar,the answer to this is DONT STRESS THE YEAST.any yeast "pushed",or fermented at high temperatures can produce esters some down right nasty.so keep the percent fairly low and a cool slow ferment is the key and let the wash clear racking it off the trub as it does so.
now for nutrients,yeast use or can use a variety, many of witch is in fruits or grains and molasses so not much has to be added to these.
refiend sugar,honey,maple sap lack all nutrients .some of witch mite/mite not be in your water.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by zouthernborne »

I agree with Dunder on the bread yeast. I have tried 8 different yeasts trying to reach that "Jamaica" flavor that I love in my rums. I even ordered a packet of yeast online that was supposed to provide banana esters into the final drink. It was good, but nothing so far has given me the body and flavor that bread yeast has. I use 2 gallons of food grade molasses and 4 pounds of brown sugar per 10 gallon wash. I always aim for 10% or so, I keep my fermenter in a room that stays pretty steady at 90 degrees F, and I don't mess with it. The rum knows what it's doing. I get my molasses and sugar at Cash & Carry, and buy 1 lb bricks of yeast at Winco. My total cost for a 10 gallon wash, not including using flour or electricity, is around $20. And I come away with easily a gallon of nice rum each time.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by zouthernborne »

And when it comes to the nutrients that yeast need, and I mean actually need, not what people add to make the fermentation more aggressive, the molasses provides all that. And usually a couple of B vitamins crushed and thrown in will do a good job if you feel they are being malnourished.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by Dnderhead »

some place ,I thank in novice graveyard there is a whole list..?
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by rtalbigr »

rumbuff wrote: I know there's been a lot of discussion about which yeast to use, and I have been using Fliechmans baking my very fist batch had lalvin 1116, as well as the baking yeast, so I did that on my latest batch. .
Lalvin 1116 (K1) is a "killer" yeast, so even though you have baker's yeast in as well, the K1 killed it all, you just fermented with the K1.

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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by Dolmetscher »

Okay... This is all very good. Here is the recipe that I am assembling for this first run of Rum. Please comment all the pros and cons you see with my recipe.

Batch Size: 5 Gallon Mash
#1 Sugar Source: 1 Gallon unsulphored baker's molasses
#2 Sugar Source: 2 lbs. Raw Turbanado Sugar (Sugar in the Raw, brand.)
Yeast Nutrients: 1 B-Vitamin; crushed
Yeast: One 4 oz. jar Fleischmann's Instant Yeast.

METHOD:
Combine the molasses and sugar with 2.5 gallons of bottled "Spring Water," my local water smells like a fart. I'll have the other 2 - 3 gallons of Spring water in the freezer becoming ice cold but not frozen. Bring the sugar mixture to a boil to kill as much bacteria as possible. Once the water boils for 5 minutes or so... I'll pour the ice cold water into a 6.5 gallon brewer's bucket, then pour the hot sugar/molasses water into the bucket as well, add the crushed B vitamin, and let it cool to pitching temperature, 75 degrees F (???)
Meanwhile I will scoop out a quart of the sugar mixture to rehydrate the dry yeast and "activate it." When the wort is cool enough, I will stir in the yeast, fix the airlock, and let her go until she stops bubbling, then I'll let it sit with no activity for 3 more day, just to make sure that all the fermenting is done. Then I will rack it off the yeast sludge, and run it through the still.

This run would be just to get the "Dunders." I will immediately use the Dunders from this batch to repeat for the next batch. The first run, I will use the Rum to make whatever flavored garbage my friends might like; maybe some crappy daiquiris, or Rum and Cokes... The second, and subsequent batches, I will "age" by floating some charred oak chips in each quart jar for at least a year, and sample every couple of months or so.

QUESTIONS:
When you guys said that one should use "Bread Yeast," I took that to mean literally grocery store, instant break yeast. If you guys were using a term that I don't know about, please let me know.

YEAST:
1. Is one jar (4 oz.) of instant yeast too much, too little, fine?

2. I've always heard that a fermentation should be as cold and long as possible to avoid off flavors and harmful headache/hangover causing fusel oils etc. But now I'm reading that Rum may be distilled in a room that stays 90 degreed F? That is very hot to me. Anybody else have an opinion?

DUNDERS
Since this will be a sugary solution that has been raised to almost boiling point and cooled back down several times, I imagine that it has got to become a Petri dish for harmful bacteria.
3. How do you store it?

4. Should you bring it to a boil each time you use it to make the next batch?

5. How many revolutions can you put it through before it's best to throw it out completely and just start over? I imagine that I will do 5 runs or so, and then blend them together a year or so from now. This will be fun to see the difference between the runs, and how much difference the Dunders make. Not a bad hobby for a combined cost of about $100 in sugars for 5 full gallons of boutique Rum.

WOOD CHIPS
I made a lot of Apple/Pear/Plum fruit brandies over the years. I always put charred oak chips in the jars, and I really loved the color and flavor it brought. But the wood chips were purchased by a friend of mine, and they were always in this generic clear plastic bag. So I don't know what kind they were, where they came from, how to get them again. Online there are dozens of different wood adjuncts. Any tips on which wood, and which level of char Rum producers usually go for?

This site is AMAZING! I promise to stick around and help out any Rum newbies as time goes on. I really appreciate everyone's help.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by rtalbigr »

1. 1 to 1 1/2 Tbl is plenty, 4 oz way too much. It needs to be re-hydrated in sterile water, not the concentrated sugar solution. If you want to do a starter then once re-hydrated add to some diluted (SG of 1.020-1.030) solution.
2. Ferment temps and duration are yeast dependant. With baker's yeast around 80F is good, higher temp will yield more esters which is often desirable. I don't think you'll go wrong at 90F but don't go beyond that.
3. Bacterial/fungal infection is what makes aged dunder and gives it character. Mine just sits in a covered container to keep out insects.
4. Ya, I boil mine.
5. I just replenish my dunder pit. I have it built so I can draw and add w/o disturbing the cap. I guess my kids will throw it out when I die.

With rum aging on oak is up to you. Many leave it white, but even then giving it time will improve it's flavor profile.

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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by heartcut »

What big R said.
I start rum ferments at 65 degF and then let them rise to whatever (just less than 90). Minmizes some of the nastier flavors and still lets the good ones develop.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by HookLine »

Treacle (here in Ozland at least) is much more refined and cleaner than molasses. Still pretty tasty though, and certainly worth trying.

Don't dismiss blackstrap molasses too quickly. Not just the fermentable sugar level (ie yield) that matters, there is a lot of flavour in blackstrap.

Yes, there are a whole bunch of specialised yeasts. But plain standard bakers yeast, like you buy from the supermarket for making bread, is a pretty good default yeast for neutral and rum. Grain and fruit based ferments are where the yeast type gets more critical. Don't know about tequila.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by Dnderhead »

"Treacle (here in Ozland at least) is much more refined "
from what i found "treacle" or most of it is boiled/concentrated cane juice befor the sugar is removed.
but can be molasses.which is after some/most sugar is removed.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by MitchyBourbon »

Well fellas,
This has been a really good read. I just picked up 3 gallons of molasses today that I'm planning to use in my next rum run. I don't make a lot rum but my wing man (son) has convinced me to do so. I'm kinda excited, I haven't done a rum since I was in college and now I'm gona do one with my son who's in college... Turn the page.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by zouthernborne »

You going to do the full 3 gallons in a 10 gallon wash?
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by shinendine »

going to try some of this "panela" you speak of. Found some at navarro.com. $1.29/16oz with free shipping over $25.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by LWTCS »

shinendine wrote:going to try some of this "panela" you speak of. Found some at navarro.com. $1.29/16oz with free shipping over $25.
That is a very good price.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by whiskeytripping »

I just bought some panela made in El Salvador from a local Mexican market here in Texas. It was $2.08 for a 24oz bar wrapped in a dried bandanna leaf (or corn husk) I also picked up some Grandmas brand molasses

Now I need to actually find a recipe that people have made a couple of times with good results for the molasses and panela mix. I have a couple of 8 gallon fermenters that I'm going to dedicate just to rum. If I make a traditional rum recipe in the tried but true, do I substitute pound for pound panela for sugar? Or does it just stretch the molasses? :crazy:

any advice is much appreciated :D
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by Dolmetscher »

whiskeytripping wrote:I just bought some panela made in El Salvador from a local Mexican market here in Texas. It was $2.08 for a 24oz bar wrapped in a dried bandanna leaf (or corn husk) I also picked up some Grandmas brand molasses
Hey whiskeytripping...

Could you do me a favor? I am very interested in doing a taste test. Could you...
1. Take 4 glasses and fill them with 8 oz of water or so. Just try to make them all the same in volume.
2. Add a Tablespoon or so of Molasses, Brown Sugar, Panella, and White Table Sugar, one per glass... and stir them until it is completely dissolved.
3. Smell each one of them and make a note of how different each smells. You don't have to describe the smell as much as just tell me how different one smells from the other. I imagine the Table sugar will smell pretty neutral, and then work backwards from there to the Molasses... which I imagine will smell the "weirdest."
4. Then do the same, but this time tasting. And just make notes.

You might also try to have a glass of white rum around to smell and see which one smells/tastes the most similar. This part would be a stretch, but it might be interesting. We don't have fancy gas chromatographs, brix profilers, and calorimeters... so we have to use our noses and tongues. Learning from each other, I think, is always worth the trouble.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by whiskeytripping »

I definately will try that when I do get ready to mix up a batch of rum, I'm really interested in he color and taste of the panela though, I've never tried that at all
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by LWTCS »

The panela is simply evaporated cane juice. Shelf life of the juice is very short...so this basic processing method is quite useful for the poor farmers that produce panela.

No sugar has been rendered from the juice. When heated and liquified it will have a nice mild molasses scent...The salts and other unfermentables are not as concentrated as say,,,, black strap. And as a result will ferment very well...The taste is rich with a very pleasant molasses note. Panela (or the like) is the original brown sugar... Folks in the English speaking areas may refer to this product as Sugar Loaf.
Sugar is a bit like likker made with fruit,,,,, and by that I mean that depending on where it is from we may call it something different......Kinda like how brandy has many names,,,,,so does panela.

I have more recently started using 10 pounds of panela and 4 cups of black strap with a tea spoon of yeast nutes for a 25 liter total volume. Ferments nice and steady

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K6XKadWWq8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by whiskeytripping »

Awesome LWTCS, thanks for the info and recipe :thumbup:

I'm having a hard time finding a blackstrap around here without the preservatives, but I'm sure the Grandmas brand molasses will work just fine :)
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by whiskeytripping »

Really cool video you posted also, after watching it though :wtf: I realize, there might be flies in my panela. :D LOL, it didn't look like they had to worry about the food and drug administration or OSHA for that matter. If we were to make panela here in america it would cost 20$ for that same brick I paid 2$ for. :sarcasm:
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by LWTCS »

The grand ma's will have a bit more sugar and not as many salts on a ppm basis....you'll do fine.
I only recently was able to start using a bit of black strap,,,,,,or any molasses as it was cost prohibitive for me....
But My new best friends from the sugar industry gifted me this here 5 gallon bucket I got now...
Up till then all of my ferments were from Panela only.

more on Panela:
What Is Panela?
Panela is unrefined whole cane sugar, typical in Central and Latin America, which is basically a solid piece of sucrose and fructose obtained from the boiling and evaporation of sugarcane juice.
Panela is the original brown sugar and can be fermented quite steadily with no additional nutrients as the sugar is rich with nutrients.
While preparing to ferment, panela has a familiar molasses note that comes across very nicely. Panela can be fermented on it’s own for a lighter finished product. Or, if you need to stretch that bucket of molasses and boost your gravity. Supplement your recipe with panela for a more full flavored rum profile with little to no sacrifice in yield.

A little bit about panela from the wikki:

The nutritional value of sugar cane depends on numerous factors, ranging from cane variety used to the type of soil and climate characteristics and milling conditions.

Among the products of higher domestic consumption in areas in which it is produced, panela is soluble in any liquid and retains many of the components of raw cane juice, but in higher concentrations.

Some facts about nutrients in the panela:

Sugars are basic nutrients, from which an organism obtains energy to sustain metabolic processes. The carbohydrates present in cane are sucrose, which is the most abundant sugar, and lesser quantities of reducing sugars or inverted sugars, which have a higher biological value to the body than sucrose.
There are quantities of mineral salts, which are 5 times greater than those of brown sugar and 50 times more than refined sugar.
The calcium content in the panels contributes to the formation of a better teeth and bones stronger, and aides in the prevention of cavities, especially in children. In pediatric populations where the diet includes brown sugars, the incidence of caries is significantly low, this is explained by the presence of phosphorus and calcium that are part of the tooth structure. The alkaline minerals (potassium, magnesium, calcium) neutralize excessive acidity, a major cause of tooth decay. These minerals are also essential for regulating muscle contraction, heart rate, nervous excitability. They also help correct bone deficiencies, like osteoporosis, that occur in adulthood.
The iron content in the sugarcane prevents anemia. The percentage of this mineral in the newborn is consumed within a few months, which is why infants require a diet rich in iron, so that the hemoglobin level remains stable. This nutrient also strengthens the immune system and helps prevent infant respiratory system diseases and urinary tract infections.
Panela provides phosphorus, an important pillar of bones and teeth and an ingredient in the metabolism of fats and carbohydrates through oxidative phosphorylation processes. A deficit in these inorganic materials can lead to de-mineralization of bone, poor growth in childhood, and can cause rickets and osteomalacia.
Magnesium is a transport chemical in the nervous system, acting on muscle excitability and serving as an activator of several enzymes such as serum hosphatase. Children who have normal levels of this element are most active.
Potassium is essential in maintaining the balance of intracellular fluids, affects the heart rhythm and is involved in regulating nerve and muscle excitability.
Vitamin A is retained in panela, which is essential for the growth of skeletal and connective tissue as well as visual purple.
Panela also retains the B complex vitamins, such as B1, involved in the metabolism of acids and lipids. Vitamin B6 is involved in the metabolism of essential fatty acids and is essential in the synthesis of hemoglobin and cytochromes.
Also retained are Vitamin D, which increases absorption of calcium and phosphorus in the intestine, and Vitamin C, necessary to maintaining the intercellular material of cartilage, dentin, and bone.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by LWTCS »

whiskeytripping wrote: I realize, there might be flies in my panela.
Hahahaha there likely are. Least there is in mine :lol:

Actually Panela is more recently regarded as a food product rather than a sweetner. And as such The processing requirements are going to hurt the poor farmers that depend on the income.
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by HookLine »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCLEYmugfDw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by whiskeytripping »

Thanks Hook, that video was informative as well
Since its going to be a couple of months till I make my rum, is it a good idea to mix up some panela and molasses to start a Dunder pit so it can get funky and start building up some flavor? Or is it just best to wait and start a Dunder pit after I make my first run? I'm really new to the whole idea of rum, but have found it pretty interesting, and the Dunder is like the Sourmash of raw sugars
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by Dolmetscher »

I thought that Dunder was the left overs from distillation of a fermented sugar solution; be it molasses, panela, or what have you. After the sugars have been converted to ethanol and then the ethanol extracted by the fermentation process, the mineral-rich, by product "dirty" water is retained and called Dunder. Correct?

And then when you make a second/third/fourth... batch, you just keep using that same dunder, adding fresh water as needed to dissolve the new molasses/panela solids for fermentation. Please correct me if I am wrong on any of this.

Now, I do not plan on becoming a constant turn-over micro distillery. So, what will become of my dunder if it sits for months in between batches? I do not have the freezer/refrigerator space to freeze/store it. I find it hard to believe that a mineral rich substance like that, left, just in a bucket, even with an airlock lid, won't spoil and turn rancid/poisonous. LWTCS, you seem to be the resident expert here on Rum. Any guidance?

Thanks to all who have and are contributing to this thread. This is awesome!!!
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by whiskeytripping »

Dolmetscher, that is correct about how the true Dunder is made, I just didn't know if I could combine some of these sugars and let them go through a mini ferment and bacteria take place so when I DO make my rum I could add some of this stuff. Maybe you cannot go this, I'm not totally sure. Because from what I'm reading, untill you have a good Dunder with all the nasties in it you cannot make a strong flavored rum, the best way to learn this I guess is to start a batch huh? :D
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Re: Making Quality Rum: The Final Word on Molasses/Sugar Sou

Post by LWTCS »

You don't have to use a full blown pit and recover every drop of spent rum beer. You will only need a total of 25% of the boiler charge if you plan on cycling into the next ferment. You don't have to age the dunder if you don't have the room. Tater uses no dunder and i bet his rum is good.
I bet you have enough room in your fridge to pick up a more narrow 2 liter pitcher to keep some spent beer in your fridge?
Only need to find what works best for you. There is more than one approach .
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