Burn taste in final spirit

[Adam78k]

So currently I have 7 spirit run's under my belt and I've noticed even after taking the heart cut from the run, which for me is usually between 75%-60% has a burn in the final taste, even after aging for 4-6 months plus. My current setup is a 15.5 gallon pot still in which I do 3, 10 gallon stripping runs for a final spirit run. From all the stripping run's I throw the foreshot's out and also take the first qt jar of all the stripping runs. Then comes the final spirit run which I run slow pencil led size stream.

I'm just currently trying to figure out why there is always a burn in my heart cut? Thanks guy's I appreciate the time.

[Usge]

Hey Adam.
Yes..that can be frustrating. By burn...I'm assuming you mean "it burns"...and not that it's a burnt taste ?

The first most obvious place to look at is your cut. You mentioned your cuts on low-wines (fores and first quart each strip run)...but you did not mention much about your cut on the spirit run.
You said 75-60%. What was the starting proof? Usually on such a run it would start somewhere around 85%...and commonly from there the first cut would start somewhere around 80%. But, it's all taste anyway, and your cut range certainly doesn't look too out of whack to me. I would say just off top my head...you like more "corn" /bourbon/whiskey taste and are being very, very diligent about the heads. Maybe more than you should be (depending upon what proof your run started at). You might try leaving your low-wines intact (save the fores if you want) and see if that doesn't shift things enough to make it tollerable.

It's just a subjective thing..its a bit hard to relate without sitting together tasting it...but I can offer a few things from my own experience that might help. First...I find the range from upper 70%s to be the starting transition point of flavors in the run from the heads side...to the tails side. There are 2 main flavor shifts that occur...the flavor that is predominant as the heads fade..that can be quite nice as well..but more neutral...and the bourbon more whiskey like flavor that transitions in the middle...then becomes stronger until it gets a big cardboard/box. tasting. In the middle...there is this notable transition....and this is where that caustic jar will come up. In the upper 70s% (*ie., 78-77-76%) it taste quite like whiskey to me and is usually sweet, pleasant and smooth. But, from around 70%...if your starting ABV was above 85%. or around 60% if your starting ABV was below 85%....is where it can spit out a really nasty, caustic jar. I don't know exactly what it is...but it's just the temp range where something compounds with the ethanol that gets very pronounced and it has a burning sensation and is highly caustic and unpleasant.

Now, here's the deal..sometimes it's not too pronounced...and sometimes its really bad. I never nailed down why...maybe ferment temps changed or ? Could be anything. But, invariably...it's something to do with whats in your pot (ferment , ingredient, yeast, temps..etc or addition of feints). When it's not too pronounced...I find that blending it with a wider cut (or more jars) makes it go away enough that it's not unpleasant. Sometimes the only choice is to throw that jar out..and blend with the less objectionable ones. But, I can tell you...it always happens somewhere in the middle...somewhere in the transition from heads side flavor to tails side. And it's right in that range where you cut is concentrated. So, that's something to look for.

There's a certain "burned" like flavor (sometimes like grape) that happens when the flavor shifts through hearts. When it's good..it's subtle and the distllate is still smooth and sweet. When it's bad..it's pronounced and has an almost alkaloid caustic burn to it. When I find that...I throw it out. There's nothing in the rule book that says you have to keep "everyjar" linearly. You might also try running your spirit run just a touch "faster" through that range.

[Prairiepiss]

Sounds to me you are using a sugarhead recipe. And the burn you are getting is from the sugar. I personaly have noticed this burn or as I call it a sugar bite. I've always noticed it in rum. And it was very cornfusing to me when I first started. I come to realize it is my taste buds. Others don't notice it as much as I do. I figured it out at a tasting of store bought spirits one night. We had tasted some nice vodka and some ok whiskey. Didn't have that bite. Then the rum hit me like a brick wall. There is that bite. Shortly after that I got a nice care package from Big R who does AG stuff. It wasn't there no bite. Except for his rum it had it. Then a sample from Rockchucker of a AG with no bite. Then my own AG no bite.

Not saying this is your problem. Just something to think about.

[Usge]

That makes sense P. Certainly could be the issue (if not a part of it)

[Husker]

Not sure about a 'sugar bite'. I wonder if your 'bite' (PP) is from pushing the wash to a higher ABV, than the AG's.

I have gotten VERY smooth sugar head washes. But I also do not push over 10% (well, I might fudge that a point or so at times). It may also be on how cuts were made. Heads even in tiny quanities can bite like an SOB. That is one of the reason I almost can not drink ANY commerical swill. I can not stand the burn from all the heads they have in them.

H.

[Prairiepiss]

I try to stay in the 10% to 11% range with my sugarheads. I've also talked to Big R about this before. He gets the same bite from sugarheads as I do. I mite try dropping the ABV down and see if it still comes through. And I still get the bite from all the rums I've ever tasted. And I don't find it in other spirits that are made with something other then sugar.

But this thread ain't about me. I'm working in going AG for everything. So that will be my fix. I was just giving the op something else to think about. I have tried to get others that have tasted my stuff to find that bite. But they don't seam to find it. So it seams to be one of those taste things that not everyone can find.

And I'm not saying cuts aren't a major contributer to things like this. Good cuts are a must. But if infact there is this bite on sugarheads and you think the problem is actually the cuts you made. It can be very discouraging. Trying over and over to make cuts so its not there. Trust me it had me pulling my hair out at one time. Trying to figure out what I had done wrong and why no one else noticed it. But I am a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to stuff like this.

[Usge]

These kinds of things can be hard to track down. But, I think from description of his cut (75% down to 60% on a double run) it doesn't on it's face sound like a heads cut issue. However, I do agree cuts probably the most common cause of harsh distillate that wont' go away. But unless he's getting blanked runs because of his ferment (ie., heads for hearts) his description sounds like something I've experienced before. I reviewed some of my run notes and find that this can happen during temp transitions and most often happened to me either around 70% or so if my starting run was above 85%. Or around 60% if my starting run abv was below 85%. (I'll correct my post above to reflect this) It's a temp transition past the middle in the side of tails. The jar after this rancid jar is always "obvious" tails and doesn't have this burn. So, I called it ....the "fores" of tails.

As I said before, not sure exactly what makes it worse sometimes than others. But, my guess is it's higher alcohols that come out during the temp rise in the transition to tails. Perhaps the higher gravity issue makes this worse? Dunno.

[Tater]

Agree with abv of wash being kept 10 or so proof Seemed to me it can also be caused by fermentation temps . And yeasts.If were talking about same burn taste seems I get it more when doing sugar mashes rum/ fruit when its hot weather.Ec1118 seems worse for it then the distillers yeast. However distillers yeast tolerates hot weather better then the wine yeasts by its nature.Also seems less problem when running with condenser water cooler rather then warmer.

[Dnderhead]

i just went threw this,,"hot" taste is caused by higher alcohols,,these are created by stressed yeast,bacteria,hi temps,to much sugar,low nutrients,competition with other things like bacteria,wild yeast,toxins , that mite be in water...this is why most including me thought it was caused by refiend sugar is that when making "sugar head" most tend to make a high SG wash. this stresses the yeast.so if you make a sugar wash at say 5%? alcohol then you should not have the "hot taste"
ethanol has 2 carbon molecules,,these higher alcohols have 3..

[Adam78k]

I'll be a little more specific on my process. The burn taste is still coming from my AG washes also. My washes generally 8% abv and I ferment them at 72 F. The yeast strain I use is wyeast 1968 a london brewer's yeast in all the washes. I do not clear the washes before I run the wash through the still. I'm know I'm not lacking nutrient's on my washes usually from my brewing experience but I do know in of my fermentation vessel's there is an infection because I can taste it and smell it. When I start up my still on stripping run's and spirit run's I turn the heat on full blast on my propane burner till the pot head start's to get warm. Then I throttle the heat back half way and start the cooling water on the lieberg. Then I crank back the heat almost all the way way when the pot head is to hot to touch. I've tasted all of my low wines of the stripping runs before and I'm not getting the burn taste that I do in the spirit run cut of the heart's.

So I hope this help guy's really do appreciate all the help.

[Usge]

You aren't likely to taste it even if it's present in your low-wines because the proof/concentration of the alc isn't high enough to really make it nasty. This is probably why they start showing up once you do a spirit run and the concentration (alc to water) gets higher. Lower proof/% helps with the issue in so far as it dilutes it more.

As to Dnder's points...I never found an "exact" cause for what creates it in a given fermentation...but I knew it had to be something that was going into the pot causing it. It would also make sense that the "higher alcohols" that Dnder is speaking about...would occur at higher temps in the run...(placing it more towards the later half of the run as I've experienced it). If you have such conditions in your ferment to create these higher alcohols...they are more than likely going to compound and come out in the area I was talking about in the transition to tails. Further, the more you try to separate it by running slow, etc...the worse it's going to get..because it bonds/compound with ethanol and all you'll be doing is reducing the water and concentrating the alcohols (including the upper ones). The fact that Adam seems to concentrate his cut more to the deeper side ..(ie., taking 75-60%...as opposed to 80-65%)...might also add to the intensity of it making it even worse.

I've found that sometimes..if it's concentrated mostly to a particular jar...that you can simply cut that jar out and it will be ok. You can dilute it back some with water, lower the proof, and it can help take some of the edge off (but won't get rid of it). But, I think the lesson here in sum is to pay attention to your ferment conditions, and not to push abv of your wash/mash too hard. In your case Adam...doesn't sound like you are pushing abv "that" hard. But, the infection might be part of the problem. As to Tater's point, you might try a different yeast profile just for kicks too. And you might also try letting it clear more before running it. As far as your run procedure on your pot..it looks fine. Mostly, just run it by the proof of what's coming out. Sometimes you have to experiment a bit to find the best flow-rate for your paticular still and any given recipe. You might also try doing a spirit run a bit faster than you normally do and see how that impacts your distillate. That's about all I can think of right now.

[Dnderhead]

you want to look at a distilled ferment much like you whould a beer ferment,I just did a bunch of research/reading.
thats why I could say its he "higher alcohols" the infection probably is not helping..my research explains why most
distillers ferment lower % and ferment is finished in 1-day.it also explains why "sugar head" is usually "hot".. really found little on line.most came from books but here's
one...

http://www.winemakernotesblog.com/2006/ ... inish.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Usge]

Thanks Dnderhead.

From the article:

“Alcohol” in wine is predominantly ethanol: the 2-carbon alcohol which is the primary by-product of the anaerobic metabolism of sugar by yeast. Pure ethanol does not taste “hot” – though it is astringent on the palate (if you were to drink ultra-pure ethanol your mouth would feel dry inside). However, the “alcohol content” of a wine may also include some isomers of higher alcohols – alcohols with 3 carbons or more in their structures – which DO taste very hot. And some of the oxidation products of alcohols (ketones) taste even hotter. In fact, it is the presence of very small quantities of higher alcohols and ketones – which are called “congeners” in distilled spirits – that make a wine taste hot.

So you are wondering why your hot wine has congeners in it. The answer is pretty simple – stressed fermentations. When yeast are stressed, they start to pump out all sorts of junk, some of which are congeners.

I would say this also goes to the old adage...the art of making whiskey/brandy is to concentrate the congeners and esters that bring the flavor you want...while avoiding the ones that you dont want. And the information would seem to imply the most influence you have over that is during your fermentation. Could you expand on the ferment finished in one day? (didn't quite get that?). As far as I know..the distilleries I've visited (as a visitor..not any other capacity) made fairly high gravity corn mashes (around 9%) and used their own proprietary/cultivated yeast (they have chemical engineers who do the work for them) that finished every 3-5 days (according to them). I would also note that "all" of them used open fermenters never sealed/closed and in less than sterile conditions (blowing off enough co2 that it didn't need it).

Question for Dnder: Am I correct in assuming that these 3 carbon alc compound with Ethanol when the run passes through their corresponding temp range (as alcohols)? And secondly...is there any method/way after the fact to deal with them or minimize them during distillation other than refluxing to the point of neutral (ie., passing through those temp ranges where they might compound or occur at much lower temps)?

Perhaps a better way to phrase that for you Dnder would be....is the bonding process of congeners/keytones with ethanol one that can be separated by distillation temp? Or is its bond with ethanol such that no matter how much you concentrate the ethanol (lower boiling point) they will hang on? Interested to see what your books say.

Also, what is this saying:

"And some of the oxidation products of alcohols (ketones) taste even hotter"

Not sure what this means.

What are the books? (titles)? you used for reference? Is it something we can perhaps reference or find online? Or are they those $$$$ chemical engineering books that make my head (and wallet) hurt

Lastly...as cut and dried as some of this seems....it's like chasing your tail sometimes. Iv'e had wild yeast ferments that were "Slow" and took quite some time to finish or that stressed out and died and had to be restarted ...that ended up producing quite flavorful distillate "without" the burn. And I've had vigorous..strong..ferments that finished quickly that were nasty as hell and burned like hell. So, while I get that it's something chemical that happens during ferment...I'm not so sure that these things are good indicators of it.

So, the exit question boiling it down would be.....what "are" the indicators during your ferment that would give a clue that yeast were producing "unwanted" congeners? Or is it more accurate to say...screwed up congeners given the understanding that congeners are also part of what makes good flavor?

[Dnderhead]

if you want the books there part of ADI training..
my eyes hurt so dont read much any more..
if i remember right these alcohols along with acids change into "flavors"
similar to how they make "artificial" flavors..(look that up if you want)
this happens over time and is part of the aging proses..

now you probably seen as Iv said other places some of the rum (the cheep stuff?) is ran off as a neutral. the heads and tales are combined
in the right combinations along with a catalyst (a catalyst speeds the proses up)to create the "rum flavor" then added back ..when i read that two things
came to mined ,,"rum flavor" must be simpler to create and having no/little regulation on how its made they can do this.
(this is done in a lab)
with whiskey the "flavor " is much more complicated,and regulations,,therefor they have not been able to do it yet but coming closer..

(ok for all this writing you owe me a monitor it keeps going blank! LOL)

[Usge]

You monitor keeps going off? Is it set to go to sleep?

Thanks Dnder. I have in fact looked up some basic information about industrial distillation in some books. But the engineering books make my head hurt

I appreciate you taking the time. That's probably more than I've seen you write in a while. (about 3 posts worth)

[Dnderhead]

"You monitor keeps going off? Is it set to go to sleep? "
i thank the back lighting is taking a crap...
(this has floresent lights to light screen)

[Usge]

Drag! I know my computer crashed once (had a power outage) and it reset some of my custom settings to default. One was the screen saver, etc. And I kept wondering why it would just shut off on me. hahaha.
Usually a clue is...if hitting a key on your keyboard wakes it back up or makes it come back on....it's a setting somewhere. (if laptop..it's your power management) if it's regular computer..it's in the control panels (ie., Display).

Could be bad or loose cable too.

[Adam78k]

The percentage started at 84% and I stiled the spirit run at 20% So from my cuts I thought I was only taking narrow cut of hearts.

[Buccaneer Bob]

Did I miss something? I am trying to figure out why you are making your cuts on your stripping runs, rather than on your spirit run.

On a pot-still, heads get "smeared" into the hearts quite a bit, but they get smeared more on stripping runs than on spirit runs because the viscosity of the initial wash causes the ethyl acetate and whatnot to be released more slowly -- so more smearing.

On the spirit run, you'd be starting with roughly 40% alcohol, 60% water, and not much of anything else. This mixture would have an extremely low viscosity, which should allow the ethyl acetate and whatnot to be released more easily and more quickly -- so less smearing.

I'm thinking you would benefit greatly by making your cuts on the spirit run, rather than on the stripping run, since there is less smearing in the spirit run.

The heads would be more compacted that way.

Now then, let's look at this from a statistical perspective.

Let's say that your cut is off by 10% on each stripping run -- that you have 10% too much heads in your heart cut. You are aggregating three stripping runs into a single spirit run, so that's 10% too much heads + 10% too much heads + 10% too much heads ... that's 30% too much heads going into your final liquor.

So let's say that you don't make any cuts on the stripping runs, you make a single cut on the spirit run and you're off by the same 10%. That's just one time that you have 10% too much heads.

Statistically speaking, you should be able to produce liquor that is three times cleaner if you make a single cut on an aggregated spirit run like your are doing than if you make three cuts on three stripping runs.

Of course, that's just "statistically speaking", and statistics can break one way or the other, once you put theories into practice.

But perhaps between the viscosity concept and the statistical concept, you can see some value in making a single cut on an aggregated low-viscosity spirit run, rather than making three cuts on three different higher-viscosity stripping runs.

Just my thoughts on your situation. I don't know, I might have gotten confused trying to understand your situation.

Edit: One other thing that kind of jumps out at me is that you seem to by tying your cuts to alcohol percentages.

I don't even use a hydrometer when I'm stilling. I do everything by taste.

And I'm hardly "Mr. Tastebuds", but I do manage to do okay, I think. Most everybody seems to enjoy my hooch, anyway.

If I'm trying to figure out my cuts on an unknown wash, I usually collect my distillate in jars, label each jar, start tasting in the center, work my way to the edges, and make my cuts based on taste.

Then later, once I've run the same wash several times and I seem to be coming up with pretty much the same results every time, I can make my cuts at, say, the 1000 ml mark and the 4000 ml mark, or whatever.

And even then, I double check with my tastebuds.

As far as I'm concerned, the only time a person really needs a hydrometer is when they are diluting their heart-cut to "barrel strength" or "drinking strength".

And even then, they can do it using the burn tests in Tater's Distilling Advice.

[Dnderhead]

you can take some fores on the low wines then make fores/head/and tale cuts on the spirits run..
now another way is to make cuts on all runs and put what you removed back into the previous run.,

[Usge]

Buc, I think you are also misunderstanding the OPs issues. His problem is that on his "spirit" runs...the entire run is blanked. Meaning...there is a chemical like burn that runs all the way through the hearts of it.

And, AFAIK (As Far As I Know)...distillation/separation doesn't occur through viscosity (a fluids resistance to flow). It works by temp/boiling point. Heat (or running too fast) is what would cause smearing and that can occur on any run (spirit or strip). Strip runs are usually run fast..at much higher heat levels...and they would have more smearing. I would also mention that there are plenty of people here who do single slow runs on wash/mash as opposed to double running (strip/spirit). However, given the original posters comments about his run...that he ran it slow with a small pencil lead sized stream...it appears unlikely that smearing was his problem. Beyond that, the fact that he removed fores "and" the first jar of every strip run...would mean there would be "less" overall impurities (and ethanol) going into his final spirit run...not more.

And while I don't think the use of a hydrometer to measure the abv of his cut ...had any bearing on the problem, I certainly agree with all your comments about sensory methods!

[Dnderhead]

one thing Ive seen on here is "take it off in a pencil lead size stream", this might be so for you still that is made to hold 10gal/45L
but the guy that has a a still that holed 2gal/9l is not going to have the same amount of vapor coming off ,so you wont have the same size stream.iv seen a 300gal still at work,,and beleve me there is a much bigger stream than a wee 10 gal..

[Buccaneer Bob]

And, AFAIK (As Far As I Know)...distillation/separation doesn't occur through viscosity (a fluids resistance to flow). It works by temp/boiling point.

I know it's more theoretical than anything.

But imagine that you have to choose between swimming across a pool full of water or swimming across a pool full of molasses. Obviously, you will choose to swim across the pool full of water, right?

So a molecule of ethyl acetate has to swim around in a wash for awhile before two conditions line up: one condition being that it makes it to the surface of the wash and the other condition being that it has enough energy (heat) to break free from the surface and evaporate.

So that first condition, being at the surface of the wash when it has enough energy to break free, is going to be effected by the viscosity of the wash.

The more freely that molecule of ethyl acetate can swim, the easier it will be for the molecule to make it to the surface at just the right time when it can break free.

Yeah, I know it's not going to make a big difference in most washes, but I have actually seen it come into play stripping some thick, pulpy plum wine last year.

Everything was smeared from here to Timbuktu and back again on the stripping run, you know.

But on the spirit run, it was really amazing how much everything compacted.

Beyond that, the fact that he removed fores "and" the first jar of every strip run...would mean there would be "less" overall impurities (and ethanol) going into his final spirit run...not more.

Did he make cuts on the spirit run, too? From his original post, all I can tell is that he made cuts on the stripping runs.

[rad14701]

I'll go out on a limb and say that based on the original post that there are two problems... The first is greed, caused by pushing for high gravity washes... The second is improper cuts which may also be due to greed... Never be afraid to set aside any jar to be added to feints for a feints only run... You'll eventually get that alcohol out and it will be much cleaner if the next run is done properly... We see members panicking repeatedly over recycling an extra ounce or three only to come here wondering why their spirits are always just a little inferior to what they expected when it is their own greed that is the problem...

There are several great topics which cover making proper cuts and that would be the best starting point... Also focus on blending... Just because a jar smelled decent when it first came off the still doesn't mean it will blend with the rest of the jars and result in a decent blend... Start with the middle hearts jar, or just the middle jar, and alternate outward in each direction a jar at a time... Only blend jars that you really really think make the cut because it only takes one off jar to mess up the whole lot... If a jar seems a bit off, set it aside as feints... When in doubt, collect in smaller amounts (half as much volume) in the heads and tails ranges... Also, don't be afraid to hold out one extra jar from each end as feints... These concepts have all been covered extensively so I won't delve further into the subject here...

[Adam78k]

On my spirit run I stated tasting from the middle jar outward. Without making any cuts I still noticed a destinctive burn in of all the heart jars

[Dnderhead]

let me add ethyl acetate that has been blamed for "bite " has a "fruity tooty" smell ( the nail polish remover)and its some times wanted in wine.but to much is bad..

[HolyBear]

Adam, I wonder a couple things after reading this post a few times...

Are you diluting the samples down to taste them? Dilute in a spoon to an estimated 40% or less to taste with cool clean water.

Do the sample jars burn yer eye if you put yer face sealed over the mouth of it then open yer eye?

How fast is yer spirit run? Should be very slow, braided trickle...

[Adam78k]

Was the same burntaste that I couldn't get rid of. Should I remove 2 or 3 jars on the first part of the stripping run to limit heads even more?

[Dnderhead]

from my research its in the tales .not heads..it can be aged out.but mite take time.

[Adam78k]

So Dnder do you think I might be running my stripping run's to fast which created to much smearing or would running my spirit run a little faster help instead if a small trickle? thank's again for all the help on the topic your knowledge is very valuable.