Organic Ethanol Spirits

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Koula
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Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by Koula » Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:07 am

There does not seem to be a pre-existing discussion regarding the concept of organic or certified organic ethanol production, how to make it, what the difference would be from conventional ethanol (your opinions), etc. Many natural health tinctures in the US for instance, will utilize a carrier of "organic ethanol or alcohol".

A few considerations, as usual with organics, could be around the organic nature of the ingredients used. A few red lights would go off for GMO Corn, especially as a source of dextrose, other GMO sugar crops (sugar-beets), or conventional grapes/fruit sources. It's well known that western grape farming ("modern") are considered one of the top ten sprayed crops in the world. Other red lights are the obvious additives that brew shop owners are so eager to peddle, whilst turbo clear seems to be a harmless biproduct of prawns, there are other considerations like the addition of sulfates in yeast packets.

Page 13 of the below GMO guide considers dextrose and all non-cane sugar to be GMO suspect.
http://www.ssjphila.org/documents/Resou ... opping.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

So what would it take to produce an organic ethanol? - to make a product that would fully qualify as certified organic ethanol.

I've read the FAQ at the website below, and naturally, purchasing their product is not an option, but it's worth a skim-over for the interested or skeptical.
http://organicalcohol.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts on this one... Cheers! :moresarcasm:

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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by Buccaneer Bob » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:34 am

If you're looking to make some "organic" liquor, you can do that a million different ways.

Beyond that, though, what's the point? Are you planning on taking some of your illegally produced liquor to have it certified as "organic"?

If you do, please make sure you take a video camera with you, film your dealings with the federal government, and post the video on youtube, because I wanna watch. :lol:

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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by Prairiepiss » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:33 am

Certified organic grains and or sugars. And most yeast (other then turbo crap) would be organic. Not hard.
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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by Dnderhead » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:12 pm

depends what you call "organic" some describe it as using artificial means or chemicals.so you cant use anything refined,in the states that includes most all sugars except honey and maple syrup. grain? maybe some Mormons but most of them just have some one do the things that they are not supposed to.

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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by Prairiepiss » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:32 pm

Dnderhead wrote:depends what you call "organic" some describe it as using artificial means or chemicals.so you cant use anything refined,in the states that includes most all sugars except honey and maple syrup. grain? maybe some Mormons but most of them just have some one do the things that they are not supposed to.
How bout something like Sugardaddy's panela? It's organically grown. And all they do is cook the cane juice down solid. Would be the closest thing to unrefined sugar I can think of. Well unless you could get fresh squeezed cane juice. From cane that was organically grown.
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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by Koula » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:40 am

Prairiepiss wrote:Certified organic grains and or sugars. And most yeast (other then turbo crap) would be organic. Not hard.
Seems many yeasts have other preservatives included. What's the deal with Turbo yeast, everyone here is against it, some even claiming it's GM. So is Turbo Yeast genetically modified?

The local farmers market sells freshly squeezed cane juice, but for a pretty price. I've noticed that certified organic raw cane sugar is available, and therefore permissible. However, I don't suppose there's any cane farmers here (a dying breed as I understand), I'd like to hear about how heavily sprayed their crops are...

Any chemists here? would pesticide/insecticide/fungicides that make their way into cane juice, refined to sugar crystals, and finally fermented, still be present in a distilled product? If only we could legally send samples to the ag labs to be tested for residues... only costs about $300 for farmers... of course growing vegetables is still legal.

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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by Doogie » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:56 am

The theory, as stated in many other posts, is that Turbos not only yield many off flavors in the final likker (to this I attest), but also push the greed side of distilling instead of making good quality likker (and I can see this). I do not think it has anything to do with GM issues.

With regards to sugar, and testing, it may be easier to ask the manufacturer of the products you use if they are organic. You would have to test each product yourself otherwise. As for quantity in the final product, it would be possible as you never produce 100% pure ethanol ... there are always other components in there. As for GM, you would have to factor the ingredients, how they change, and then how they are distilled, and then also the unfermentables that get inevitably transferred into the likker. Dunno - if you eat a GM product, then is yer turd GM also? This is basically the yeast function.
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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by rad14701 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:02 am

There is truly nothing all that special about the yeast in turbo yeast... It's the excessive amounts of chemical nutrients that make it "turbo" and creates the off tastes and smells and difficulty in clearing that everyone complains about... The yeast itself is merely hybridized over successive generations so it is still organic, more or less...

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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by Prairiepiss » Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:37 am

rad14701 wrote:There is truly nothing all that special about the yeast in turbo yeast... It's the excessive amounts of chemical nutrients that make it "turbo" and creates the off tastes and smells and difficulty in clearing that everyone complains about... The yeast itself is merely hybridized over successive generations so it is still organic, more or less...
What would make it not organic is. All the crap they add to the yeast to make it a turbo.

Yeast is a living creature. It's not really an ingredient. It's a tool needed for the process of making alcohol.
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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by Doogie » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:59 am

yes, but if you have organic beef, you in theory can have organic yeast ...

If the nutrients are not organic in themselves (so chemicals), would it not disqualify them as organic if they consume the chemicals?

Just thinking out loud ...
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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by Prairiepiss » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:05 am

That's what I said. The crap they add to turbo yeast would make it not organic. And you are feeding the yeast with what you make your wash or mash with. So if you only use organic ingredients. They are only eating organic ingredients.
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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by kungpo » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:41 am

As an aside, I did look in to this, and as far as the UK is concerned, Water and Yeast cannot be considered Organic by the very nature of them, so inclusion in an organic product is considered ok.

So a beer made with organic malt and organic hops but using an off-the-shelf beer yeast and tap water could be considered organic.

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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by rad14701 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:53 pm

Correct... The yeast itself is organic, regardless... But the chemicals that make it "turbo" disqualify it as an "organic" ingredient...

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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by Koula » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:34 am

I think it's absurd that governments [most likely lobbied by coca-cola and such multinationals] are stripping clean pure water of it's organic status in place of systemically tainted mass medicated fluoridated water. How bizarre! Therefore, use of such tap water would in fact be contaminating an organic product. I don't believe that any organic certification body would allow municipal tap water as an ingredient in an organic beverage.

Thanks for the votes of non-confidence in Turbo yeasts. I understand yeast is a living organism, and therefore "natural". But greenwashing is rampant in corporate culture, and even chlorine is legally classified as "natural". Jeez, wouldn't it be great if there was mandatory GM labeling including derived from products?

In the PDF (from the HD homepage I believe) wine_for_distilling.pdf by Mikrobios, he goes into some detail regarding yeast selection. This is also where the concept of GM yeast originated (at least for my posts).
Mikrobios' wine_for_distilling.pdf wrote:
"I now suspect that this yeast was a
strain genetically modified for super-fast fermentation in a continuous industrial process; nonsettling
was in fact a requirement. At the end of the circuit the yeast would have been pulled
out of suspension by a cell-separator."
So I guess yeast nutrients are a huge question to produce organic ethanol. What would be a good organic yeast nutrient?

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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by rad14701 » Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:23 pm

I think you've lost me with this whole organic kick thingy... :crazy: Ethanol is not going to be organic because of the process of manufacture... And with pure ethanol it really doesn't matter what it was originally derived from because ethanol is ethanol is ethanol, and ethanol isn't healthy for you anyway...

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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by googe » Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:22 pm

Here's to alcohol, the cause of, and solution to, all life's problems.
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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by varocketry » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:24 pm

Koula:

My brother is a certified ORGANIC miller and flour producer. I've helped him enough with his business and trade show engagements to answer the question for you.

Certified Organic is both a marketing and an actual difference in the product. A farmer has a number of things he needs to do to achieve his organic cert including non-GMO seed source and use as well as organic production techniques and no chemical pesticides.

A producer like my brother or the local Organic Distillery near me has to use both organic grain and ingredients in his production as well as quality production processes to qualify as Organic for certification. There are allowable "ADDITIVES" in organic production processes and I don't know if YEAST (or type of yeast) is considered an ingredient or an ADDITIVE. A telephone call could resolve it easily.

I could see where IF all ingredients of a Turbo Yeast were organic, there'd be no issue. But I'm just extending logic there , not stating any specific knowledge of Turbo Yeast. :ewink:
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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by Prairiepiss » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:44 pm

rad14701 wrote:I think you've lost me with this whole organic kick thingy... :crazy: Ethanol is not going to be organic because of the process of manufacture... And with pure ethanol it really doesn't matter what it was originally derived from because ethanol is ethanol is ethanol, and ethanol isn't healthy for you anyway...
It's so the hipsters can do something bad. And feel better about doing it. Not from doing it. :lol: :crazy:

False since of security. Oh hey this alcohol is organic. It has to ne better for me. :lolno:
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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by FortyNiner » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:18 pm

Not that this would be "certified" organic, but Birdwatchers recipe can be made using all organic ingredients, kinda. Organic tomato paste (readily available, I get it at Costco), organic lemons or lemon juice, organic cane sugar (Costco had 10 pound bags of C&H brand for awhile, but haven't seen it at my store in a about a year), yeast (organicness covered earlier in this thread) and water is all you need. The optional pinch of Epsom salt is a mineral mined from the earth, so I think that this would be neutral or organic friendly but I can't say for sure. There you go, clean, organic (kinda) neutral spirits. So there.
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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by Sugar Daddy » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:37 pm

Our usda certified evaporated cane juice / panela is organic and the pro distillers mark it as such on their label. Not sure if it makes it healthier, but it sure gets them into different health markets ;)

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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by sl3 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:25 am

Koula wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:07 am
There does not seem to be a pre-existing discussion regarding the concept of organic or certified organic ethanol production, how to make it, what the difference would be from conventional ethanol (your opinions), etc. Many natural health tinctures in the US for instance, will utilize a carrier of "organic ethanol or alcohol".

A few considerations, as usual with organics, could be around the organic nature of the ingredients used. A few red lights would go off for GMO Corn, especially as a source of dextrose, other GMO sugar crops (sugar-beets), or conventional grapes/fruit sources. It's well known that western grape farming ("modern") are considered one of the top ten sprayed crops in the world. Other red lights are the obvious additives that brew shop owners are so eager to peddle, whilst turbo clear seems to be a harmless biproduct of prawns, there are other considerations like the addition of sulfates in yeast packets.

Page 13 of the below GMO guide considers dextrose and all non-cane sugar to be GMO suspect.
http://www.ssjphila.org/documents/Resou ... opping.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

So what would it take to produce an organic ethanol? - to make a product that would fully qualify as certified organic ethanol.

I've read the FAQ at the website below, and naturally, purchasing their product is not an option, but it's worth a skim-over for the interested or skeptical.
http://organicalcohol.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts on this one... Cheers! :moresarcasm:

Were you able to find any good resources or discussions on this? I’m hoping to get some clarity and direction on this as well, for making tinctures/extracts... This would include whether or not it being worth sourcing sugarcane juice vs. making juice/syrup from organic granules.

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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by Expat » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:34 am

sl3 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:25 am
Koula wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:07 am
There does not seem to be a pre-existing discussion regarding the concept of organic or certified organic ethanol production, how to make it, what the difference would be from conventional ethanol (your opinions), etc. Many natural health tinctures in the US for instance, will utilize a carrier of "organic ethanol or alcohol".

A few considerations, as usual with organics, could be around the organic nature of the ingredients used. A few red lights would go off for GMO Corn, especially as a source of dextrose, other GMO sugar crops (sugar-beets), or conventional grapes/fruit sources. It's well known that western grape farming ("modern") are considered one of the top ten sprayed crops in the world. Other red lights are the obvious additives that brew shop owners are so eager to peddle, whilst turbo clear seems to be a harmless biproduct of prawns, there are other considerations like the addition of sulfates in yeast packets.

Page 13 of the below GMO guide considers dextrose and all non-cane sugar to be GMO suspect.
http://www.ssjphila.org/documents/Resou ... opping.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

So what would it take to produce an organic ethanol? - to make a product that would fully qualify as certified organic ethanol.

I've read the FAQ at the website below, and naturally, purchasing their product is not an option, but it's worth a skim-over for the interested or skeptical.
http://organicalcohol.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts on this one... Cheers! :moresarcasm:

Were you able to find any good resources or discussions on this? I’m hoping to get some clarity and direction on this as well, for making tinctures/extracts... This would include whether or not it being worth sourcing sugarcane juice vs. making juice/syrup from organic granules.
Couple of things,

First, this thread is pretty stale, so you likely won't get an answer from any of the original participants. Just setting your expectations.

Second, organic food is a scam; you're paying a massive premium for the use of different pesticides, note not NO pesticides. Have a read of the following if you want to understand better.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/sc ... riculture/

If you look around the site you'll be able to see that several of the members have had product samples tested.... None of these have reported back the presence of anything out of the ordinary.

So make a new pure neutral from regular sugar (or any tried and true) and create whatever tincture you prefer; you won't see a bit of difference, except for free time and more money left in your wallet.
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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by seabass » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:47 am

Many of those organic certified pesticides are far less effective and far more dangerous to the environment that the modern ones. You aren't getting safer food by buying organic. You are shelling out money to corrupt anti science organizations.

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Re: Organic Ethanol Spirits

Post by StillerBoy » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:53 am

Expat wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:34 am
So make a new pure neutral from regular sugar (or any tried and true) and create whatever tincture you prefer; you won't see a bit of difference, except for free time and more money left in your wallet.
I agree with the statements made by Expat..

I also make herbal tincture and herbal liniment tinctures made from a regular white sugar wash spirit, but from a recipe that is health for the yeasts used, and double spirited for a clean neutral, then diluted with spring water..

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