Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

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Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by Antler24 » Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:54 pm

I've always dissolved my sugar in hot water, then let it cool before adding to the fermenter. I recently read a post where a guy said he didn't dissolve, he just topped his fermenter up with water/backseat and dumped the sugar in.

Anyone else do this? Anyone see anything wrong with it?
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by still_stirrin » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:07 pm

Timing.

The dissolved sugar will be readily available to the yeast faster...quicker, more healthy ferment.

Dumping it in will eventually dissolve, but it will take longer, posibbly even days before it does. No sense in wasting time for that just because you're lazy. At least stir it until it's dissolved.
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by S-Cackalacky » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:08 pm

Never tried it, but I would think dissolving it would make it more available to the yeast. If you just dump it in and maybe give it a stir, anything that doesn't dissolve would just settle to the bottom and not be available, or at the very least slow down the ferment. But, that's just basically speculation.

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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by Kegg_jam » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:12 pm

I've found dissolving in hot backset to work good.

I've 'dumped it in' cool before but stirred until dissolved. Longer lag time and over all ferment time for me. Still finished fine though.

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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by jedneck » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:14 pm

Kegg_jam wrote:I've found dissolving in hot backset to work good.

I've 'dumped it in' cool before but stirred until dissolved. Longer lag time and over all ferment time for me. Still finished fine though.
I agree. When I run uj I dissolve sugar in hot backset and add cold water to cool to yeast friendly temp. Ferment starts right off.
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by Antler24 » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:54 pm

Slower fermenting is enough reason for me not to do it. My basement sits around 17-18C so ferments are a little slow as it is, don't need them any slower. Thanks for the info!
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by cranky » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:55 pm

I like to invert my sugar by dissolving it with a bit of lemon juice in boiling water. I assume dissolving it in hot backset does the same thing. It converts the sugar to one the yeast can make better use of. At times I have just added sugar in and stirred to dissolve and it does go a little slower but ferments out fine. Just dumping it in without stirring, the sugar will eventually dissolve but I don't see the point. If you stir the sugar in you are also aerating the wash which also helps the yeast.

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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by raketemensch » Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:16 pm

I find myself only having time for a run every two weeks, maybe three sometimes. Slow ferments work well for me, so I've been thinking about not making the simple syrup to run a slower ferment, but it may not be necessary. I've read about people going 2 months between generations of UJSSM, and it seems like letting a wash sit for a bit may be a good thing anyway.

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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by Bagasso » Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:50 pm

I've have usually just dumped and given a quick stir and it always worked off in about a week but I live in a very warm place.

The idea was that the yeast would be happier because of the lower OG and the stuff at the bottom always dissolves in time, like a stepped fermentation but, without aiming for a high ABV.

ETA: I have dissolved and even inverted but I never noticed a difference.

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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by MitchyBourbon » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:53 am

Ever stir a spoonful of sugar into a cup of tea or coffee? Even when it is hot, the last sip is noticeably sweet. Some of the sugar remains un-dissolved and precipitates on the bottom. When this happens in your fermenter, you've created a killing/stress zone for yeast. Yeast are not motile, they can't just swim away when they want to. Any yeast that remain in close proximity will become stressed. Because we use top fermenting yeast, most of the yeast will be fine. Which is why it might seem not to matter. Your results just won't be as good as they could be if you don't fully dissolve the sugar first.
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by FreeMountainHermit » Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:46 am

Inverting sugar was a popular topic for a time here. I haven't seen it mentioned lately.
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by bearriver » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:33 am

FreeMountainHermit wrote:Inverting sugar was a popular topic for a time here. I haven't seen it mentioned lately.
I usually dissolve my sugar in 50 gallon batches. It takes anywhere from 50-100 pounds of sugar to be adequate in a 50 gallon ferment. Figure since I'm already doing the pain in the ass process of boiling 20 gals of water and dissolving 100# of sugar in it, that I might as well invert it also.

Gives me a slightly smaller yield for a faster working ferment. Tried and True.

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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by S-Cackalacky » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:43 am

FreeMountainHermit wrote:Inverting sugar was a popular topic for a time here. I haven't seen it mentioned lately.
There was some little discussion of it very recently, but I wouldn't have a clue as to how to find it. The discussion compared sugar inversion to the resulting sugars from doing an AG mash. Something about the processed white sugar being converted from sucrose to glucose - that in a ferment the enzymes produced by the yeast can work on it easier without having to break the longer chains first, or some such. Anyway, the idea was that it might help to eliminate some of the sugar bite. I probably butchered the explanation, but I think that was the gist of it. Anybody remember that discussion?

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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by Ferment_It » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:53 am

It was in booners casual all corn thread. Don't know how to link using tapatalk. Sorry.

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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by Rastus » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:17 pm

Before my run is done i have the sugar and molasses sitting in a kettle measured out and waiting....

soon as i wrap the run i pour that hot backset into the kettle and it dissolves right quick and nicely....

then i add a bunch of cold water to the dregs in the bottom of my fermenter, bout half way up and then pour that hot stuff into it.

most always i get it at about 90f.... which works good for the next round to get fired up....
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by Braz » Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:59 pm

I routinely invert the sugar for any sugar wash - almost always All-Bran. It just works for me and my ferments are very consistent every time.
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by MitchyBourbon » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:13 pm

Whether you use invert sugar or not, it should have no effect on fermentation. It will have no effect fermentation speed. It will have no effect on yeast health. It will have no effect flavor. I should note there are circumstances that can change this.

Yes, it is true that yeast do not directly consume sucrose (table sugar). The sucrose must be broken down into fructose + glucose. Yeast readily do this by secreting invertase which is an enzyme that works outside the cell to hydrolyze the sucrose molecule into its components — glucose and fructose. Yeast produce this enzyme during reproduction, so they are gonna make the stuff whether the sugar is inverted or not it's what they do. Like all enzymes, invertase acts as a catalyst to help a reaction occur, but it does not under go any changes itself. So it's not going to create any additional or different flavor compounds whether you use inverted sugar or not. The invertase work is completed long before the reproductive phase is done so there is no speed benefit either.
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by still_stirrin » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:38 pm

Mitchy,

How would this "to invert...or not" be effected if in lieu of cell reproduction during the aerobic phase, if the wash was over-pitched, i.e. - by pitching 3x to 5x the required cells?

Would the inverted sugars start the active fermentation process sooner?

And, if it was "over-pitched" wouldn't that also generate byproducts which could affect the flavors, i.e. - esters and aldehydes?

I'm just curious...not disagreeing with your facts at all.
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by MitchyBourbon » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:09 pm

still_stirrin wrote:Mitchy,

How would this "to invert...or not" be effected if in lieu of cell reproduction during the aerobic phase, if the wash was over-pitched, i.e. - by pitching 3x to 5x the required cells?

Would the inverted sugars start the active fermentation process sooner?

And, if it was "over-pitched" wouldn't that also generate byproducts which could affect the flavors, i.e. - esters and aldehydes?

I'm just curious...not disagreeing with your facts at all.
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Your scenario is precisely the circumstance I had in mind. If you over pitch (I'm thinkin 10 x) and you don't aerate you'd better be using inverted sugar. Under this circumstance, you will be skipping most of the reproductive phase. Because invertase is produced during mitosis (reproduction), there will be much less invertase produced. In this case, if the sugar was not inverted the ferment would most likely stall or if at least some invertase was produced it might ferment very slowly and very badly.
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by still_stirrin » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:21 pm

Thanks Mitchy.

You've confirmed exactly what was rumbling in my mind too. You've explained the process very well too. I just hope that other (new) members will read this topic and discussion so that they can avoid asking the same questions. (what are the chances of that?)

Thanks again.
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by Ferment_It » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:34 pm

Bold statements Mitchy. Can you back up your claims regarding invertase production in yeast being tied to reproductive cycles? If I understand correctly, you are saying yeast will make an enzyme irregardless of whether the enzymes are needed and it is always made just after they bud (undergo mitosis).

Quote MitchyBourbon:"Yeast produce this enzyme during reproduction, so they are gonna make the stuff whether the sugar is inverted or not it's what they do."

According to your claim how might you explain the process used by yeast when we add non inverted sugar (sucrose) to standing populations of yeast on spent grains (eg gumballhead) or UJSSM generations? These are severely "overpitched" and often poorly aerated but still finish out fine. According to your predictions these "would most likely stall or... ferment very slowly". Additionally, why would yeast make an enzyme that is specific to a process without checking to see if it is needed in the first place?

If, as generally assumed, yeast produce this enzyme only when it is needed, and it has some cost associated with it (it isnt free to make) then I would argue that it would have an affect on fermentation and is worth looking into further.

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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by FreeMountainHermit » Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:19 pm

I thought I'd stick this in with the thread for those that may be interested rather than highjack the conversation.

http://homedistiller.org/sugar/sugar/invert" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

or

https://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/ ... ert-sugar/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by Bagasso » Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:15 pm

Ferment_It wrote:According to your claim how might you explain the process used by yeast when we add non inverted sugar (sucrose) to standing populations of yeast on spent grains (eg gumballhead) or UJSSM generations? These are severely "overpitched" and often poorly aerated but still finish out fine.
Was thinking the same since I only inverted on my first couple of washes and aerating for me means causing a little splash when I fill my fermentor and I have only had one slow wash that got a little funky, after years of doing things pretty much the same.

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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by MitchyBourbon » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:36 am

Ferment_It wrote:Bold statements Mitchy. Can you back up your claims regarding invertase production in yeast being tied to reproductive cycles? If I understand correctly, you are saying yeast will make an enzyme irregardless of whether the enzymes are needed and it is always made just after they bud (undergo mitosis).

Quote MitchyBourbon:"Yeast produce this enzyme during reproduction, so they are gonna make the stuff whether the sugar is inverted or not it's what they do."

According to your claim how might you explain the process used by yeast when we add non inverted sugar (sucrose) to standing populations of yeast on spent grains (eg gumballhead) or UJSSM generations? These are severely "overpitched" and often poorly aerated but still finish out fine. According to your predictions these "would most likely stall or... ferment very slowly". Additionally, why would yeast make an enzyme that is specific to a process without checking to see if it is needed in the first place?

If, as generally assumed, yeast produce this enzyme only when it is needed, and it has some cost associated with it (it isnt free to make) then I would argue that it would have an affect on fermentation and is worth looking into further.

People make wort, yeast make beer. Happy yeast = happy people.
I read this from an abstract I came across a couple of years ago which claimed Saccharomyces cerevisiae produced invertase during mitosis without the presence of sucrose. I have not been able to find that abstract. I did find a partial abstract that does not specifically invertase can be produced in the absence of sucrose but it at least speaks to the behavior of yeast secreting invertase during mitosis. My second post regarding skipping reproduction incorrectly indicates invertase is only secreted during mitosis. I wrote that post based off the paper I read regarding the production of invertase during mitosis in the absence of sucrose.

In answer to your other questions; I would conclude that yeast will produce invertase in the presence other carbon sources, not just sucrose.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC458398/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by S-Cackalacky » Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:46 am

This is a good discussion/debate about sugar inversion, but should it be split off into it's own thread by a Mod? This would seem to be off the topic of the OP.

That said, I've come to take much of what I read here in relation to science and theory with a grain of salt. This would seem to need some more in depth research. WHEN invertase is produced may only scratch the surface of the issue. What else happens when sucrose is converted to the simpler sugars? Are any other compounds being produced that could effect flavor? Sometimes when we do the research we stop when we see the obvious and ignore some of the underlying and more subtle processes that are going on. We already know that many other compounds and alcohols are being produced during the fermentation process. Is it not possible that non-inverted sugar (sucrose) may cause the production of some of those compounds. Feel free to take what I've said here with a grain of salt.

Sorry to be the cynic, but I know of threads here on the forums that present unsubstantiated scientific information that is at best misleading and in some cases downright wrong and remain unchallenged because of who posted them. It makes me a bit gun shy when I see bold statements being made and members here accepting it as some kind of gospel because of who said it.

Mitchy, that last paragraph was in no way directed at you. In many cases, non-scientist members (including myself) tend to take these things at face value. Just saying that there may be other things at play that may need a closer look.
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by Condensifier » Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:57 am

This is a good discussion. I did some googling and found an interesting article on how Saccharomyces cerevisiae uses invertase here https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.ph ... production
Fermentation of alchohol

Saccharomyces cerevisiae is able to perform both aerobic and anaerobic respiration. The process begins with the yeast breaking down the different forms of sugar in the wort. The types of sugars typically found in wort are the monosaccharides glucose and fructose. These sugars contain a single hexose, which is composed of 6 carbon atoms in the molecular formula C6H12O6. Disaccharides are formed when two monosaccharides join together. Typical disaccharides in the wort are galactose, sucrose, and maltose. The third type of fermentable sugar in the wort is a trisaccharide. This trisaccharide is formed when three monosccharides join together. Maltotriose is the trisaccharide commonly found in the wort and is composed of three glucose molecules. The wort does contain other sugars such as dextrins but it is not fermentable by yeast10. These dextrins contain four monosaccarides joined together. In order for the yeast to use the disaccharides and trisaccharides they first must be broken down to monosaccharides. The yeast does this by using different enzymes both inside and outside the cell. The enzyme invertase is used to break down sucrose into glucose and fructose. The invertase catalyzes the hydrolysis of the sucrose by breaking the O-C (fructose bond)10. The other enzyme used is maltase, which breaks down maltose and maltotriose into glucose inside the cell. The enzyme does this by catalyzing the hydrolysis of the sugars by breaking the glycosidic bond holding the glucose molecules together.

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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by Bagasso » Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:50 am

This seems to be saying that yeast carry invertase with them. I think the confusion arises from these enzymes being called "secreted proteins". They are secreted from one part of the cell to another.
Yeast Physiology and Biotechnology
Continuing in the inside-to-outside direction, the next ‘structure‘ encountered as a component feature of the yeast cell envelope is the periplasm. This is a thin (35-45K), cell wall-associated region external to the plasma membrane and internal to the wall. It was described by Arnold (1991) as the perlplasmic space. and by Robinow and Johnson (1991) as the never-never land of the yeast cell.

The periplasm mainly comprises secreted proteins (e.g. mannoproteins) which are unable to permeate the cell wall. These include the glycoprotein enzymes invertase and acid phosphatase which catalyse the hydrolysis of substrates that do not cross the plasma membrane. Other enzymes which may be located in the periplasm of certain yeasts are melibiase and trehalase (Arnold. 1991).

The biotechnological significance of the yeast periplasm is that invertase is an enzyme commercially prepared from baker‘s yeast following cell wall autolysis or hydrolysis.

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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by MitchyBourbon » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:45 am

Yes, invertase is secreted into the periplasm, which is a gel like substance outside the inner cell wall. Yes, most of the papers I have read regarding reactions that take place in the periplasm describe them as outside the cell.

An example from by
Yeast metabolize the different wort sugars in different ways. To consume the disaccharide sucrose, the yeast utilizes an enzyme called invertase, which works outside the cell to hydrolyze the molecule into its components — glucose and fructose. The glucose and fructose molecules are then transported through the cell wall and metabolized inside the cell. 
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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by Bagasso » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:51 am

MitchyBourbon wrote:Yes, invertase is secreted into the periplasm, which is a gel like substance outside the inner cell wall. Yes, most of the papers I have read regarding reactions that take place in the periplasm describe them as outside the cell.
Correct but it isn't free to float away. The inner cell wall is not "the" cell wall. The technical term for it is plasma membrane. The actual cell wall is still another membrane.

Like I said, a simple misunderstanding.

ETA:
Yeast cell.jpg

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Re: Dissolving sugar vs. Dumping into fermenter

Post by MitchyBourbon » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:33 am

Here is an abstract describing the optimization of invertase production using Saccraromyces Cerevisiae.

Section 3.3 finds that the maximum amount of invertase was produced in 48 hrs.

Section 3.4 finds production of invertase is maximum when Sucros was used as the source of carbon. It also finds that second and third highest were recorded with glucose followed by fructose.

From this paper I would conclude the the yeast are going to produce invertase whether you invert the sugar or not and that a significant portion is produced in the first 48 hrs. That this occurs during the reproductive phase suggests a possible connection to reproduction.



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