Jaggery

Sugar, and all about sugar washes. Where the primary ingredient is sugar, and other things are just used as nutrients.

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Jaggery

Post by aircarbonarc » Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:17 pm

I've seen this mentioned a few times in various forums. So a few years ago I discovered Jaggery at an Indian grocery store. It was sugar cane based Jaggery, which its just pretty much the most raw unrefined type of sugar with a rich flavor. The price was great $10-$12Can for a 10kilo "brick" and I was using 10kilos Jaggery and 5kilos sugar per 40L wash with Ec1118, seemed to work great until I tried just straight up Jaggery, 30 kilos split between 2 40l washes. The flavor has always been great and so has the way its run. Now here is what I was finding with the Jaggery I was buying, it was not always the same, some was darker and more flavorful than others, once I noticed some black chunks on a really dark brick of Jaggery which ended up being dead wasps (little black wasps). I have even noticed because its such a crude unrefined product that there will be bits of sand and some sugar cane straw in the pot. At the moment it's not locally available in large bricks and is available for about $2.99 a kilo in small sulfite containing chunks, so I'm staying away from that. Ultimately I would like to try a Jaggery Blackstrap blend to master and maybe make a lovely rum. Also Jaggery liquor is a great base for adding flavors, I have added vanilla beans, made a Star Anise Orange liquor and even once made a Maple Cinnamon liqueur. So if you see these big burlap wrapped pail shaped blocks in your local Indian store its well worth it. Anybody else have any experience with Jaggery or Ghur as its called. BTW some Indian old timers have told me about using it for making Desi moonshine back in Punjab and how they love the flavor.
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Re: Jaggery

Post by NZChris » Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:34 pm

Jaggery=panella=whatever the local producers call it. It's sugar cane juice reduced by boiling. I have a really dark flavorsome one from Bolivia that I use in the kitchen that will never be fermented.

I've done one ferment so far, fast aged a sample, and the results are very promising. I'm working on a dunder from the backset to get some hogo into the next ferment.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by aircarbonarc » Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:41 pm

I really wish I had been educated on the magic of Dunder in the past while the Jaggery was available. It's seasonal and not available till mid March or so. Panella isn't available here in Canada but I have come across it alot in Mexico. Do you think the Jaggery might carry some Dunder benefiting microbes? I usually boiled mine to kill off any wild yeasts, but now I'm thinking I'd do things differently.
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Re: Jaggery

Post by NZChris » Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:30 pm

Jaggery has been boiled to reduce it, so I doubt there are any useful microbes survived that. If you're really lucky it might have picked up some bugs on the way to your supplier.

For desirable bugs to thrive in dunder, you'll need warmer temperatures than you'll get in an unheated Canadian shed over the winter, and have smells that I imagine you won't want in a heated Canadian house over winter.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by aircarbonarc » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:08 am

I guess it would depend on the Source, alot of it is pretty much processed like this https://youtu.be/z4j-mjogvio" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I have found blocks with a white fuzz type mold and I'm sure they might contain somenwild yeasts. I do live on the west coast of Canada so we don't get that cold.
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Re: Jaggery

Post by NZChris » Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:59 pm

There are plenty of microbes about that you can use. Yoghurt, kombucha, your skin on a hot sweaty day, leave it open outdoors for yeasts, insects, rodents, airborne yeasts. It needs some protein, so you don't need to remove things that drown in it. The less hygienic you are about it, the more likely it is that you'll get the results you need.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by Jimbo » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:01 pm

Jaggery tastes quite a bit different than Panella to me. Jaggery also often has salt added, apparently not enough to cause problems if the Punjabi boys are making shine with it. I blended some with Panela (Columbia) and Piloncillo (Mexico) to make a batch of rum (Cachaca officially)
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Re: Jaggery

Post by aircarbonarc » Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:12 pm

I noticed the Jaggery I was using has a slight chlorine odour to it and was slightly salty. I think I was buying the rawest cheapest crudest Jaggery available because of the free sand, and dead bugs. The yeast loved it!! I tried it with Still Spirits Rum and it was more than happy to give me a tasty end product. I have some aging on toasted oak chips right now with a little vanilla and a small handful of raisins for sweetness. I'll say it compares to some of my favorite aged rums! I'd like to try something with some panella next time I go to Mexiland, the stuff I saw there was alot darker and tasted like a darker brown sugar. Be interested to try the results, my dream is to have a comercial rum distillery near some sugar fields in Mexico
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Re: Jaggery

Post by raketemensch » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:17 pm

I'm working out a continuous banana wine ferment, sort of kombucha style, and was hoping to find something better than regular cane sugar. I was considering using brown sugar, but this sounds even better, I'll have to dig some up.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by Bagasso » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:36 pm

raketemensch wrote:I'm working out a continuous banana wine ferment, sort of kombucha style, and was hoping to find something better than regular cane sugar. I was considering using brown sugar, but this sounds even better, I'll have to dig some up.
Other than the optional salt in some, that someone mentioned above, it really is just molasses in block form.

Although I did google and found that jaggey can be date, cane or palm sap so there would be differences but theres still a one in three chance that you will just get dried out sugar cane molasses.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by NZChris » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:47 pm

Bagasso wrote:
raketemensch wrote:I'm working out a continuous banana wine ferment, sort of kombucha style, and was hoping to find something better than regular cane sugar. I was considering using brown sugar, but this sounds even better, I'll have to dig some up.
Other than the optional salt in some, that someone mentioned above, it really is just molasses in block form.

Although I did google and found that jaggey can be date, cane or palm sap so there would be differences but theres still a one in three chance that you will just get dried out sugar cane molasses.
Molasses has a high percentage of the sugar removed. Jaggery only has water removed.

Read the label. My supply is from cane and has no added salt.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by Bagasso » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:02 pm

NZChris wrote:Molasses has a high percentage of the sugar removed. Jaggery only has water removed.
I probably should have said cane syrup but, you are right it isn't the same as blackstrap molasses which, I think is probably what most would find in, say, a feed store. So, yes if the only molasses someone can get is blackstrap then it has had sugar removed.

Still, brown sugar, which is probably the easiest to get for many, would be molasses with the sugar put back into it. I guess my point was that there might not be much of an advantage to hunting down these forms of sugar over just using brown sugar.

That date jaggery does sound intersting though.
Read the label. My supply is from cane and has no added salt.
I just saw someone mention it and pointed it out as something else that might be in jaggery. This is not something you would find in latin american products. They would most likely be cane based and not date or palm sugar.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by Monkeyman88 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:17 pm

Bagasso wrote:
NZChris wrote:Molasses has a high percentage of the sugar removed. Jaggery only has water removed.
I probably should have said cane syrup but, you are right it isn't the same as blackstrap molasses which, I think is probably what most would find in, say, a feed store. So, yes if the only molasses someone can get is blackstrap then it has had sugar removed.

Still, brown sugar, which is probably the easiest to get for many, would be molasses with the sugar put back into it. I guess my point was that there might not be much of an advantage to hunting down these forms of sugar over just using brown sugar.

That date jaggery does sound intersting though.
Read the label. My supply is from cane and has no added salt.
I just saw someone mention it and pointed it out as something else that might be in jaggery. This is not something you would find in latin american products. They would most likely be cane based and not date or palm sugar.
Standard Brown sugar is plain white sugar with 6% molasses added back to it.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by Bagasso » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:47 pm

Monkeyman88 wrote:Standard Brown sugar is plain white sugar with 6% molasses added back to it.
I have no idea what amount of sugar is removed from blackstrap molasses but I will have to say that if the market settled on 6% maybe that is a sweet spot. You could always source more blackstrap and add to your liking.

It gets complicated because jaggery and similar products like, piloncillo and panela, can have a varying degree of darkness which means different flavors. Like the roast of grains or coffee.

I'm just saying that, if what you have readily available is brown sugar then that might be a good thing to try first.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by Monkeyman88 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:59 pm

Brown sugar by itself does make a very good light rum. I have done it and would recommend it.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by raketemensch » Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:38 am

So, maybe we should do a group buy.

Anybody want to split 25 tons with me? :shock:

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Re: Jaggery

Post by NZChris » Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:16 pm

Bagasso wrote:I have no idea what amount of sugar is removed from blackstrap molasses
The yield is about 2.1kg of sugar to 1kg molasses, so 6% added back to make brown sugar would be a poor cousin to Jaggery.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by Bagasso » Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:37 pm

NZChris wrote:The yield is about 2.1kg of sugar to 1kg molasses, so 6% added back to make brown sugar would be a poor cousin to Jaggery.
Who cares? They are products of the same source. Find some molasses and add whatever amount of sugar you think would make it jaggery's twin.

Did you see the pics in the link raketemensch posted. The first pic looks like light brown sugar. Scroll down and you will see another example of light jaggery and one of a dark jaggery.

It isn't even it's own cousin. Like I said, it's no different than toasted grains or toasted oak. The main difference is the shade that they are toasted to.

Besides I said that it would be a good starting point. It would give someone a good middle point to compare lighter and darker sugars and even these unrefined sugars.

ETA: You guys in New Zealand have Chelsea golden syrup and treacle. That's reduced cane juice, just not to a solid block.

For american members there's Steen's Syrup

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Re: Jaggery

Post by NZChris » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:32 pm

Bagasso wrote:Who cares?
If you just wanna get drunk, who cares? It only matters if you are targeting a style of product. If I wanted to do a really light flavored rum, it would be cheaper to make up a BWs with white sugar, and add the 6% molasses, than to buy the brown sugar to make the same.

There are factors in the processing that will affect flavor too. In sugar production, the cane juice is evaporated under a vacuum, so it isn't subjected to the high temperatures of jaggery production, so I would be very surprised if adding 2.1ks of sugar to a kg of molasses would make the same end product, even if they came from the same cane variety in the same region.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by Bagasso » Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:38 pm

NZChris wrote:If you just wanna get drunk, who cares? It only matters if you are targeting a style of product. If I wanted to do a really light flavored rum, it would be cheaper to make up a BWs with white sugar, and add the 6% molasses, than to buy the brown sugar to make the same.
Great, then do it that way. It all depends on what you have readily available.
There are factors in the processing that will affect flavor too. In sugar production, the cane juice is evaporated under a vacuum, so it isn't subjected to the high temperatures of jaggery production, so I would be very surprised if adding 2.1ks of sugar to a kg of molasses would make the same end product, even if they came from the same cane variety in the same region.
You're still missing the point.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by NZChris » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:06 pm

Golden syrup is not reduced cane juice. Not at Tate & Lyle. anyway. Look it up. I wouldn't waste my time fermenting that when there is jaggery and molasses available.

Chelsea's treacle might be, but put it this way ... Chelsea imports what is called raw sugar, not cane juice, so I have no idea what process they use, or what's in the can.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by Bagasso » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:27 pm

NZChris wrote:Golden syrup is not reduced cane juice. Not at Tate & Lyle. anyway. Look it up. I wouldn't waste my time fermenting that when there is jaggery and molasses available.

Chelsea's treacle might be, but put it this way ... Chelsea imports what is called raw sugar, not cane juice, so I have no idea what process they use, or what's in the can.
Jaggery, panela, piloncillo are raw sugars. Just because they are imported dehydrated and reconstituted, to the popular form, for a local market doesn't make it different.

Let me see if I can get the point across, use whatever you have on hand as a starting point. That's it.

I'm pretty sure this banana wine idea came about from the banana peel thread and raketemensch's idea, why distill a wash if it tastes great as is.

He went with wine and I had some bananas and tried a 3 liter batch of banana beer.

I can't get hops locally. They just don't exist. About 4 years ago I had a friend bring me some hop pellets. So I had 1 oz of Mt Hood pellets in my freezer. They are old, they might not be the best pellet to pair with bananas. Ordering something fresh and more fitting would take about a month to get here.

I used what I had.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by NZChris » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:56 pm

I used to make the raw sugar that Chelsea imports. It is not dehydrated cane juice in the same genera as jaggery by any of it's regional names. The color comes from a tiny bit of the molasses still coating its large crystals. An extra couple of minutes in the centrifuge and a squirt of water and you've got your white sugar for the smoko room.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by Bagasso » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:12 pm

NZChris wrote:It is not dehydrated cane juice in the same genera as jaggery by any of it's regional names.
I understand that you are arguing class or types of sugar cane products.
The color comes from a tiny bit of the molasses still coating it.
You seem to be describing lighter raw sugars. Not all raw sugars are heated to darker levels. Chelsea probably buys the raw sugar light so they can take it to the level that they want. I don't see how with the exporter or the importer carrying out that step makes a difference.

In the end, it makes no difference if someone can't get that product.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by raketemensch » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:16 pm

Bagasso wrote:
I can't get hops locally. They just don't exist. About 4 years ago I had a friend bring me some hop pellets. So I had 1 oz of Mt Hood pellets in my freezer. They are old, they might not be the best pellet to pair with bananas. Ordering something fresh and more fitting would take about a month to get here.

I used what I had.
How'd it come out? Mine still reads high on the hydrometer, but it's got a lot of solids in it and the taste is drying out. I reeeeally like the taste of it, and it'll definitely be graduating to a 5-gallon bucket next time.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by NZChris » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:45 pm

We are talking very different products. Raw sugar, to the sugar industry, is crystallized sugar that hasn't had the molasses completely stripped from the crystals. The likes of Chelsea reprocess it into a variety of products including colored sugars, the darker and softer the sugar, the more molasses it has coating it. The color has nothing to do with heat, temperature, browning or the Maillard reaction.

Jaggery hasn't had any molasses, or sugar, removed. The heating is more intense and some of their color differences may be due to browning or the Maillard reaction and the skills of the operators. I have a very dark one, but it doesn't taste burnt at all.

Hops grow on my fence and at this time of year we eat the extra shoots like asparagus, but that's nothing to do with jaggery :D

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Re: Jaggery

Post by Bagasso » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:07 pm

raketemensch wrote:How'd it come out?
It was done pretty quickly.

I actually only used the hops I had in a 15 minute boil and used wormwood to add the bitter element. Didn't bother carbonating cause I didn't want to spend the time.

Nothing great. It was to be expected, a fruit beer/gruit hybrid, hot fast ferment with bakers yeast, but, I liked it. It was good enough to try again. Problem I have is a small place and the wife and daughter giving me the stink eye when the smell of hops filled the air.

Actually put down another 3 liters but dry hopped to avoid the dreaded stink eye. This one is just peels and some sugar made up to 1.050, with 1 tsp each wormwood and hop pellets.

I think I might bottle condition this one. I think a dark panela is going to be part of the next batch.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by aircarbonarc » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:12 pm

I have noticed though some slight flavor differences with the Jaggery Ive been using. Maybe because its just basic sugar field village cheapo Jaggery. I have really noticed that some blocks have alot more sand than others. I'm hoping I'll find a good surprise some day. The flavor however is something amazing, like a full spectrum sweetness.
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Re: Jaggery

Post by Bagasso » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:39 pm

NZChris wrote:We are talking very different products.
Of course we are but they are more alike than agave, potatoes or barley. They are in the same class.
Raw sugar, to the sugar industry, is crystallized sugar that hasn't had the molasses completely stripped from the crystals.
If you ever have chance to visit a artesanal sugar producer you will see that there is no "molasses" in sugar cane juice. It can be a very light sandy color before cooking.
Jaggery hasn't had any molasses, or sugar, removed. The heating is more intense and some of their color differences may be due to browning or the Maillard reaction and the skills of the operators. I have a very dark one, but it doesn't taste burnt at all.
Are you saying that only dark raw sugars are complete?

I don't think you are grasping what I am saying. A light jaggery does not undergo the intense heat that a dark jaggery does. I'm not saying that they are the same because they can't be but, they are both raw sugar.

You are the one assuming that a light product has had "molasses" removed. The difference is that it has not had a chance to caramelize as much.

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Re: Jaggery

Post by NZChris » Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:12 am

I suspect any misunderstanding stems from the use of the ward 'raw'. I've never heard the word raw used in conjunction with jaggery types. Maybe it is. Maybe a better word would be 'whole' when describing jaggery types. You couldn't call the products from an industrial sugar mill or processor whole, so then might be less confusion.

Caramelization would be very minimal, if not impossible, in a sugar mill because the juice is evaporated under a vacuum and temperatures wouldn't be high enough. It is much more able to occur on the final hot slab in jaggery production.
Bagasso wrote:If you ever have chance to visit a artesanal sugar producer you will see that there is no "molasses" in sugar cane juice. It can be a very light sandy color before cooking.
I've worked in a sugar mill on the crystallizing floor, so I don't need an artisan to explain that process to me :D . Does making my own treacle from my own cane grown in my own garden make me an artisan, or do have to spend the extra half hour slaving over a hot plate to turn it into jaggery before I attain the title? I'll do it tomorrow if it gets me the title. Does it have to be light, or dark?

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