Carbon filter sugar wash before distillation?

[joeymac]

I've been stillin' for a few years now... mostly neutral spirits from sugar washes using a reflux column. I'm looking into cutting down on my process times.

My current typical methodology is:

• Make a 5-7 gallon 15%-20% sugar wash
• Do a stripping run with no cuts at max power, usually around 80% ABV
• Cut to 50% ABV and either carbon polish (directly in product) or column filter.
• Redistill for 93%+ neutral.

Right now running two distillations at about 8hr each with an overnight carbon treatment means it's an entire weekend affair just to process one wash. My goal is high purity neutral spirit, so having to redstill because the necessity of cutting to 50%ABV in order to carbon treat is eating up a ton of time. I'm considering a method of carbon filtering or polishing the wash before fermentation and maybe being able to get by with a only a single distillation. I was looking into either using something like Mile Hi's liquid activated carbon during the fermentation or running the wash through an inline carbon filter... currently I'm leaning towards the more traditional inline/funnel drip carbon filter though.

What sort quality/neutrality can I expect compared to my current process above if I were to:

• use a clearing agent after ferment
• siphon off the clear wash
• carbon filter the entire cleared wash
• Distill

[Monkeyman88]

Make a TPW or birdwatchers wash. Then there will be no need to carbon filter.

[der wo]

Carbon is a tool, you can use, to clean spirits. I like this taste less then an unfiltered middle cut of a stripped good wash, because carbon-filtered vodka tastes boring for me. But I use pipe filtering with carbon to get ethanol for drinks where I add flavour after that.
The liquid carbon for washes is the worst carbon-tool for cleaning. It's expensive and cleans at least. You can use powdered carbon between stripping and spirit run, it cleans well but not complete. Complete cleaning you get with granulated carbon in a pipe after the spirit run.

-You should once try a lower gravity wash, perhaps some or all problems dissapear.
-I like clearing agents, some members here not ("all you need is time and cold...")
-You don't siphon off for neutrals? Do it.
-Use powdered carbon between two distillations and pipe filtering at the end. Or only one of the two. Or no carbon.
-More than one distillation and cutting down the abv (30-40%) between is the key to clean spirits.

[yakattack]

Ok. You need to do some reading here joeymac. None of the sr members here will spoonfeed you information that is contained in the mandatory reading for all new members. Wether you are just starting out or have a few hundred runs under your belt we ask that you do your part and get up to speed with the threads provided. It was already provided to you in your intro thread.

That being said. Here is a little nugget to get you started. Your strip run should only take a few hours, not 8. Get up to speed so we can help you get your speed up.

Yak

[joeymac]

I don't necessarily experience problems. If I slow down my stripping run, it will pull near-azeotrope from the wash - so there's not much flavor (good or bad) that make into the hearts cut. I generally do a powdered or funnel carbon between the distillations simply because I always have done it that way. I'm after a very high ABV and clean product because I use it for things like apple pie, butterscotch, vodkas and other mixes. So because I want to be able to store near azeo product, pipe filtering of the final product is not an option since I don't want to dilute it.

Good to know that the liquid carbon for washes is not very good. I 'm kind of hoping that clearing and decanting the wash well will allow for an effective pipe carbon filter before it goes in the pot. It seems to make sense to me that a prefilter can be effective. if I get alot of the nasties out of the wash before they ever go in the pot... then they can't make it to my product anyways.

[der wo]

There are so many solids in the wash, which you can remove easily by stripping. If you put carbon in the wash, it gets occupied with this massive amount of solids and only as a side effect with the tastes that are harder to remove with distilling. So for a good result you would need tons of money for tons of liquid carbon.
If you need the ethanol undiluted, you have either to do a second spirit run after pipe carbon treatment or put the low wines in the pipe (you will need much more carbon this way) and do the spirit run after that. More carbon or more distilling, your choice.
(Or try something like birdwatchers, run it twice and make good cuts.)

[joeymac]

Thanks for the input, der wo. I understand stripping is the preferred method. That's what I do now... strip, carbon filter/polish, spirit run. I just wanted to ask others with more diverse experience than mine if I can get away with carbon filtering the cleared wash through a pipe/funnel to remove off tastes rather than be forced to run the still twice (strip, then final spirit run). Yeah, it'll eat up more carbon filtering the whole wash, but at $2.50/LB for carbon, I'd rather just use up more carbon and save distillation time and cleanup.

Also, thanks for the tip on adding the Liquid carbon to the wash. I'll try to avoid those products.

[woodshed]

Your taste issues are caused by your wash. 15 to 20%. Turbo yeast I am guessing.
If you are running a reflux column why are you doing a strip then a spirit run?
A quality wash and a properly executed run through the column should give you what you want.

The end results start with your wash and ferment. Get it right from the start and you can skip all the filtering and polishing.

Everything you need to know about producing high quality spirits in a safe and efficient manner are found here on the site.
Dive into the reading you should be doing here.

[joeymac]

Since when did I say I had "taste issues"? (I didn't/don't.) Since day 1 I strip, carbon filter at 50%abv and then redistill regardless of what kind of wash I've made. It always comes out clean and in the end and, at that abv, it's all neutral so you can't tell what the wash was anyways. That's the only way I've ever done it, so since the beginning I've never had "taste issues".

What I'm asking here is that if I clear & carbon prefilter my wash, skip the stripping run, and then distill with proper cuts at max %ABV... will I be disappointed with the results? I know I'll have a better probability of success along the lines of EC1118 in a MUM/birdwatchers wash. Sometimes I'll do that. And sometimes I'll just throw a 48hr turbo packet in some sugar water because it's so easy. I'm just looking to simplify and my process and make it easier regardless of the wash I'm using. Just trying to take it easy

I've got a ferment onhand that I started about 6 days ago. I actually think I'll give the prefilter method a go this batch once my gravity reading steady out, but I expect I'll to be able to run it this weekend. Worst case scenario is that it doesn't end up clean and I'll just dilute, polish and redistill like normal. Nothing lost or gained.

[still_stirrin]

Since when did I say I had "taste issues"? (I didn't/don't.)...

"I don't have a drinking problem...I drink...I fall down...no problem"

[still_stirrin]

What's the longest river in Africa?...."denial".

[sambedded]

I've been stillin' for a few years now... mostly neutral spirits from sugar washes using a reflux column. I'm looking into cutting down on my process times.

My goal is high purity neutral spirit, so having to redstill because the necessity of cutting to 50%ABV in order to carbon treat is eating up a ton of time.

If you aiming for high purity neutral you don't need carbon filtering you need a fractionating column preferably with SPP packing.
To reduce a time you need a continuous still for stripping.

[Monkeyman88]

Make a TPW. Just as easy as turbo with the plus that you won't have to filter before, during or after distillation. Follow the recipe and you'll be sweet as. I don't like it as it has no taste at all. I like some taste for a vodka.

[cb_j]

You should be able to achieve what you want in a single pass.
The answers have been written in this thread alone. Also by yourself.
What style of reflux column do you have? Are you tuning it to maximise your wash? Can you improve on it?
Change your recipe.
Although not a single run, save your strips so you get more booze in one hit.

[roberto188]

I've run a quick neutral strip through my 5 foot AC column.Two passes might have made it better but it's definitely drinkable. Good enough as a mixer, wouldn't drink it straight though. The AC does strip away the "off" flavors, but it also removes the smoothness that a good tight re-distillation of low wines will give you. It's your choice. I strip a 10 gallon batch at 17% in about 2 hours and reflux the redilluted in about 12 hours. It usually is a two day deal, but that has yielded me the best results. High quality takes time.

I also agree with the previous comment as well. Don't do an 8 hour stripping run. That's a waste. Just strip it fast then re-distill slow.

[Bagasso]

The AC does strip away the "off" flavors, but it also removes the smoothness that a good tight re-distillation of low wines will give you.

Removes smoothness seems a little "black box" to me. Like the claim that filtering beer removes the soul of the beer. It's vague about what is actually going on.

Maybe, just maybe, a distillate with "off flavors" has something lying underneath the off flavors that comes through after the stronger off flavors are removed.

[roberto188]

Bagasso, I do agree my comment on smoothness does seem nebulous. But I don't think you're hypothesis is the case. Last year I had a batch that came out really good, very clean tasting and smooth. Out of curiosity I ran some of it through an AC filter (thinking, this will only make it taste better!), and it actually made it taste worse, more harsh on the pallet. This was freshly washed and baked AC, so I wasn't leaching anything into the distillate. I don't claim to have any scientific explanation for what my exprience has been, it's just my subjective observation.

[Bagasso]

Out of curiosity I ran some of it through an AC filter (thinking, this will only make it taste better!), and it actually made it taste worse, more harsh on the pallet.

That reminds me of something I read here a long time ago, "Good flavors cover up bad flavors". It also makes me think of the taste of distilled water vs well water. Distilled is "cleaner" but tastes off.

I agree with your observation about AC but I don't think that distilling and cuts is adding anything to make it smooth. Both distilling and filtering are primarily processes of removal which leads me to the conclusion that things are allowed to come through when others are removed.

[Copper Thumper]

I don't carbon filter any wash,nash or must.... I simply siphon off the main fermenter into the boiler.

Only ones I filter are some brandies or whisky mashes that have a lot of particulate.


I mainly try to avoid dumping a lot of yeasts on the bottom of any washes so the flavor doesn't impart onto the likker. When I was young I didn't care.


I make better swill now.

[roberto188]

Out of curiosity I ran some of it through an AC filter (thinking, this will only make it taste better!), and it actually made it taste worse, more harsh on the pallet.

That reminds me of something I read here a long time ago, "Good flavors cover up bad flavors". It also makes me think of the taste of distilled water vs well water. Distilled is "cleaner" but tastes off.

I suppose that's possible. Like I said, I did notice when I get a clean ferment, strip and re-distill slow, I get a VERY nice smooth, neutral that I have yet to be able to find a duplicate or something better to. Maybe there are some other compounds in their that aren't adding much flavor (I can't seem to taste them) but are making it less "harsh". I don't know. Either way, to the OP, strip it fast, then run it slow for best results. Only AC filter if you totally screw it up and want some mixing vodka. Otherwise re-distill it right for best results. Again, takes time. It's just the nature of the beast.

[Bagasso]

I don't know.

Seems nobody knows for sure but, I have read people make similar remarks about AC leaving a bad taste while on the other hand there is this article about an ISU professor develops 'world's purest' vodka, which uses AC.

Just thinking that this is contradictory so, there may be something that accounts for both possibilities.

[sungazer]

I don't know.

Seems nobody knows for sure but, I have read people make similar remarks about AC leaving a bad taste while on the other hand there is this article about an ISU professor develops 'world's purest' vodka, which uses AC.

Just thinking that this is contradictory so, there may be something that accounts for both possibilities.

An interesting article and the technique is what I also used to use on my aquarium. What I find a little strange is that a lot of spirits have rules to them, that they have to be made with certain ingredients and in a certain way to be actually called that spirit. Vodka I thought had to be made with potatoes are there no special requirements to claim the name?

[Monkeyman88]

I don't know.

Seems nobody knows for sure but, I have read people make similar remarks about AC leaving a bad taste while on the other hand there is this article about an ISU professor develops 'world's purest' vodka, which uses AC.

Just thinking that this is contradictory so, there may be something that accounts for both possibilities.

An interesting article and the technique is what I also used to use on my aquarium. What I find a little strange is that a lot of spirits have rules to them, that they have to be made with certain ingredients and in a certain way to be actually called that spirit. Vodka I thought had to be made with potatoes are there no special requirements to claim the name?

Vodka may be distilled from any starch- or sugar-rich plant matter; most vodka today is produced from grains such as sorghum, corn, rye or wheat. Among grain vodkas, rye and wheat vodkas are generally considered superior. Some vodkas are made from potatoes, molasses, soybeans, grapes, rice, sugar beets and sometimes even byproducts of oil refining or wood pulp processing. In some Central European countries, such as Poland, some vodka is produced by just fermenting a solution of crystal sugar and yeast. In the European Union there are talks about the standardization of vodka, and the Vodka Belt countries insist that only spirits produced from grains, potato and sugar beet molasses be allowed to be branded as "vodka", following the traditional methods of production.

[Bagasso]

Vodka I thought had to be made with potatoes are there no special requirements to claim the name?

In the US the "rules" for vodka pretty much describe a neutral.

Actually, what I was trying to point out was that AC is accused of leaving a harsh taste/mouthfeel and also of helping producing the "worlds purest drink". These two things contradict.

Now the ISU technique uses O2 to oxidize organics so that they may be easily filtered out by the AC. That made me think that AC, as used by the hobby distiller, might be leaving things behind that were unoticed before the AC stripped the stronger flavors out.

It is probably safe to say that the ISU guy probably tried AC only and it left a dirtier drink than what is described in that article.

[roberto188]

Actually, what I was trying to point out was that AC is accused of leaving a harsh taste/mouthfeel and also of helping producing the "worlds purest drink". These two things contradict.

These may not necessarily be conflicting. "Pure by chemistry standards" may not necessarily yield the best taste. It is quite possible that trace chemical "contaminates" actually smooth out the "harsh" taste of a truly "pure" vodka. Purity of chemistry, and "smoothness of taste" are not necessarily the same thing.

[Bagasso]

Purity of chemistry, and "smoothness of taste" are not necessarily the same thing.

True but, the pure stuff is supposed to be smooth as well.

[PLAYMP]

I'm going to revive this thread because I was looking on my local homebrew shop's website and they've started selling hard seltzer kits made up of dextrose, yeast, nutrient, and flavoring. I don't think I've ever had hard seltzer and was a little surprised that it wasn't just carbonated water with vodka and flavoring added. I'm actually even more surprised that it seems to basically be carbonated, flavored sugar wash. As many of us know, sugar wash is pretty gross.

I happened to have had a party a few weeks ago and have a few cans in the fridge. I cracked one open and I'm drinking it now, you really couldn't tell that it's a fermented product and it goes deeper than the flavors just masking it. That sent me down a rabbit hole on seltzer filtration, some info can be found here:

https://www.filtrox.com/applications/fi ... d-seltzer/

I've never filtered my spirits, I've done the reading to know this forum has an aversion to the practice and I'm sure the mere sight of this post will trigger anti-filtration sentiment. I find the loss of proof the biggest reason why and I'm generally pretty happy with what I can pull off my VM where I'm usually feints for neutral.

HOWEVER my thinking is that if we filtered the wash in line with the protocols in the link above, the proof problem goes away and it also makes the idea of a sugar neutral more appealing, which I've moved away from because I find my feints neutrals are better. You can get something ultra clean that goes into the still with lower levels of non water, non ethanol compounds which presumably is going to cut down on our heads and tails and potentially increase yield.

I have no idea if this can be done at our scale but I'm thinking of actively researching it. I did want to ask if anybody since this post has considered a filtration treatment to their wash and how that's translated to their final spirit? Cheers.

[jonnys_spirit]

I'd think that distilling a neutral and adding to carbonated/flavored water would make a better product but in the commercial world that would probably require a different and more expensive TTB license or whatever it is...

Someone asked me about this recently which I also researched for a minute and it sounds like in some cases these are drinks are referred to as "malt beverages"... Which I take as also having licensing implications...

Follow the $$!

Cheers!
-j

[Chucker]

I work for a very large supplier of key processing equipment and technology that is used extensively in the manufacture of seltzer bases. While commercially sized carbon filtering is not exactly low cost it is very basic technology. The larger scale producers all use varying types of membrane technology, sometimes in line with various other types of filter technology.
Their goal is to make a clean tasting alcohol from a malt based fermentation without the use of distillation (different tax).
While their exact processes are proprietary and some even patented, all have a common thread; a clean fermentation to start with! The less polishing or filtering that is required means the more consistent and productive the end yield will be.
That said, membrane filtration alone is sometimes the end product for some, depending upon the flavor profile to be added. And I can say that a lot of flavors and odors will be stripped at that point. That product (I’ve had a hand in some test runs where there was a lot of material to discard), when distilled, will make a pretty decent vodka in a single run through my whisky rig. Not quite neutral but not in a bad way, and not requiring any sort of additional treatment or attention.
If carbon polishing is to be used effectively the bulk of the offensive organics would be better removed beforehand. Treating the wash will quickly load the carbon.
The big takeaway from commercially produced seltzer quality is that it starts in the fermentation process. This has been only realized since the explosive market growth of these products, where before such products had been extensively flavored to blend with or hide the leftover nasties (remember wine coolers?). I doubt that any of us is going to set up a membrane filtration unit in the home environment for this, but if neutral is what you’re after then look to optimizing the fermentation to the greatest extent possible.

[shadylane]

The big takeaway from commercially produced seltzer quality is that it starts in the fermentation process.

I figure even more so on the hobby sized.