Can't get it to start?

[NJen]

So I've been making sugar washes for a few months now, and haven't really had any problems with them until recently.

I usually do a 5 gallon batch at a time. I use 12 pounds of sugar, 1 pound of rasins, and water to 5 gal. Produces approx 15.5% alcohol.

Generally I have no problem with them fermenting, but the last 3 batches in a row that I have done, they have not even started. They are producing CO2 like mad, so I know SOMETHING is happening, but after almost 72 hours, the specific gravity has not changed even .1 point. Can't seem to find anyone with my exact problem just searching, so I thought I might post and see if I could get any help.

I am using a DADY yeast from Red Star, same yeast I have been using for the longest time. I bought a pound of it back in July and am still using it. It's not close to the experation date, so I'm sure that's not it..



Any help at all would be greatly appreciated. Would hate for my washes to go bad waiting on them.

[still_stirrin]

Is the yeast still viable?

Make a starter with a 1.040 gravity wash and see if it starts. Your yeast may be old.
ss

[still_stirrin]

Have you been using yeast nutrients in your sugar washes?

Did you aerate the wash before pitching yeast?

What's the temperature where your fermenter is?
ss

[still_stirrin]

Here's something else to think about...

Pitching yeast that's 8 months old into a high gravity wash will stress the yeast, perhaps to the point of "expiration". You may be "killing" your yeast. You might be a "murderer".

Since you said you purchased a pound of yeast, I assume it is a yeast cake. How and where do you store it...especially through the climate changes throughout the year?

With 3 sequential fermentation failures, I'd say you're doing something wrong. Now, to figure out what that is.
ss

[NJen]

I have not been using nutrients in my wash, I never have before, so I didn't figure I would need to now..

I do aerate. I usually take the water and sugar and mix, then pour back and forth between two 5 gallon buckets about 10 times, then wait about half an hour and add the raisins, then yeast the next morning.

The temperature of the fermenter is a solid 76 degrees constantly. On the bag the yeast came in, it calls for 78 degrees to ferment.


I am using this yeast
https://www.amazon.com/Distillers-Activ ... B01FIHTS4S" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

It's a bag of dry yeast, not a cake. In "powdered" form. I usually add 10 grams of yeast per 5 gallon bucket. It has worked for me every time in the past. Usually a fairly slow start, but within 24-48 hours it is going strong and steady.

I keep the yeast in the refrigerator in the original foil package and then also vacuum sealed inside a zip-lock style bag.

One other thing to note I usually start my washes by just sprinkling the yeast in it, no starter. Again, never had a problem with it before.

I will make a starter here in a few minutes, and see how things turn out.

Hopefully I'm not a "murderer"

I appreciate the help guys, hopefully I can get this figured out.

[still_stirrin]

Sprinkling dry yeast onto a wash with a 15.5%ABV potential IS murder. At the very least you should rehydrate. And for that high of sugar concentration, you really should make a starter.

In the past, you must have just been lucky, since the yeast was fresher and could tolerate the harsh environment better. Now, that it is aging, the shock of your protocol is "premeditated".

From now on...always make a starter.

Oh, and I recommend lowering your OG. 1-1/2 to 2 pounds per gallon of sugar should be your upper limit. Sugar washes don't have nutrients either, although the raisins do provide some.

There's an important "novice" thread hotlinked in my signature (Cranky's Spoon Feed) that you NEED to read. So many fundamentals you need to learn right away. Take some time to read through it (and the many links provided there).
ss

p.s.- FYI, the sugar wash calculator on the parent site calculate a potential %ABV of 16.9% (OG=1.110) with 12 lb. sugar in a 5 gallon wash. (no credit given for the raisins either).

[rgreen2002]

SS has hit all the high points for you so far.... I will throw in a little point. What is your pH when it stalls?

[NJen]

Alright, I will definitely start making starters from now on. I have heard both ways, but the package of yeast says you can do it either way, so I figured it would be easier to just throw it in there and let it work. I have always heard that starters work better, but again, never had a problem sprinkling dry, so I kept doing it that way. Will definitely do starters from now on though. As for getting lucky before, I don't know how that works out, because I have probably made about ~100 gallons this way with no problems until the last time I started a batch.

I will definitely read over that Spoon fed thread, I can always use more information, hence why I am here tonight.

The reason I added the raisins is because I was unsure if it would work without nutrients and I have heard that they are good and carry a lot of essential nutrients for fermentation. No changes to my method have been made since I started.

The pH when it "stalls" is 3.8 according to my cheapo 10 dollar pH meter. That seems pretty base to me, but I am no expert.


One other thing, you say that an OG of 1.110 is = to 16.9%??? My hydrometer says 1.110 is not even 15%. Right about 14.5%.

I don't know about any calculators, haven't ever used them. Just test it with the hydrometer until I am satisfied.

[Truckinbutch]

3.8 ph is too acid , not base . You need to buffer that acid up . Different ways to pitch yeast is a crapshoot . What works for some fails for others . I'd shoot for 12% or less for a start . There are calculations on the Parent Site .

[NJen]

Like I said in my previous post I've always went by what my hydrometer says, never have used a calculator. But if 1.110 is 16.9% according to the calculator, either it is wrong or my hydrometer is wrong. Kind of confused on that front.

What is a good way to lower the acidity then if it is too acidic? I'm not really sure why it would be that way, my water is a straight 0 according to my pH meter, it doesn't seem like the sugar would be acidic, so where is it coming from? Do the yeast produce some acid or something?

Will definitely start making my washes at a lower OG as I am hearing nothing but bad things about such a high OG.

[BayouShine]

The synthesis of ethanol consumes a OH- ion from the water, leaving excess H+, which makes the wash more and more acidic as it moves along.

Oyster shells used as a supplement for chickens will help buffer the pH.

[still_stirrin]

Like I said in my previous post I've always went by what my hydrometer says, never have used a calculator.

This is the parent site calulator page: http://homedistiller.org/calcs/sugar_sg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

You're lax on your "mandatory" reading...
ss

[NJen]

I hear ya, like I said, I'll be reading a lot here shortly. Have never had problems with any ferment before so didn't really feel like I needed it.

Another quick question. Living where I am I don't think there is much in the way of oyster shells that I can get my hands on. Would adding a little bit of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) hurt/help to lower the pH?

[still_stirrin]

Would adding a little bit of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) hurt/help to lower the pH?

Probably not. If anything, it would raise the pH. But baking soda is a very weak base, so it would not do much to raise the pH. Pickling lime is a much stronger base. I suggest you do a search on "pickling lime" using the HDGoogle search and read about it.
ss

[NJen]

Raise I meant, sorry. pH is something I never have really concerned myself with, and am not particularly familar with.
Coming here and actually posting now I feel like a blubbering fool lol.

I will check out pickling lime and pick some up tomorrow.

What is an acceptable pH range for a sugar wash?

[rad14701]

We can't do the question and answer thing forever... You were referred to do independent research we consider mandatory... Get to it and you'll learn the answers to your questions as well as answers to questions you don't even know you have yet...

[NJen]

I'm reading as fast as I can, but some things, no matter how much you use the search feature, you just can't find. Asking questions can be useful.
No problem however, I'll go read 10,000 pages and hope my batch doesn't survives the next 3 years unfermented while I try to glean enough information to fix it.


One more question, even though I probably shouldn't I guess... (Sorry I've always heard asking questions was a good thing. The sign of someone trying to learn.)
In still_stirrin's post above he linked the calculator, which says that a specific gravity of 1.11 is = to 16.9%.

Here is a picture of my hydrometer. It tells me that that is not the case, with 1.11 being not even 15%, let alone almost 17..
http://imgur.com/a/ZsjaE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

The top line is 1.11 and the bottom being 15%
I know the image is crappy, my phone sucks.

So is my hydrometer wrong or is the calculator? because that seems to be conflicting information, which there appears to be a lot of everywhere you read.

[Truckinbutch]

I'm reading as fast as I can, but some things, no matter how much you use the search feature, you just can't find. Asking questions can be useful.
No problem however, I'll go read 10,000 pages and hope my batch doesn't survives the next 3 years unfermented while I try to glean enough information to fix it.


One more question, even though I probably shouldn't I guess... (Sorry I've always heard asking questions was a good thing. The sign of someone trying to learn.)
In still_stirrin's post above he linked the calculator, which says that a specific gravity of 1.11 is = to 16.9%.

Here is a picture of my hydrometer. It tells me that that is not the case, with 1.10 being not even 15%, let alone almost 17..
http://imgur.com/a/ZsjaE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

The top line is 1.10 and the bottom being 15%
I know the image is crappy, my phone sucks.

So is my hydrometer wrong or is the calculator? because that seems to be conflicting information, which there appears to be a lot of everywhere you read.

You have so abused those of us trying to help you to get it your way . Put it in park and study . Dump that one sorry wash if it's going to take you 3 years to figure this out by reading .
It will be a small price to pay for you learning the craft .

[Snackson]

Your hydrometer is giving potential. It's not necessarily wrong, different sugars ferment at different rates and not all of them will ferment out. Check this thread out, http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p7337357

Posted with TB. PS- If you lose one batch, you're out $15 tops and not a whole lot of your time compared to an all grain batch.

[MitchyBourbon]

Sorry Rad, I would like to add one more bit as I think it is important.

I do aerate. I usually take the water and sugar and mix, then pour back and forth between two 5 gallon buckets about 10 times, then wait about half an hour and add the raisins, then yeast the next morning.

This is a problem. Oxygen will not stay dissolved in your wash over night. Oxygen also won't dissolve well in a warm/hot wash. Let your wash cool first, aerate well and then pitch your yeast right away.

[NJen]

Thanks for the help everyone. It is much appreciated. I'll do more reading and quit asking questions.

As for Truckinbutch, sorry for taking the 10 minutes out of your life to read my few questions which have apparently been abusive in nature.



Have a good night everyone, hope your spirits are as high in life as mine are in proof.

[Truckinbutch]

Thanks for the help everyone. It is much appreciated. I'll do more reading and quit asking questions.

As for Truckinbutch, sorry for taking the 10 minutes out of your life to read my few questions which have apparently been abusive in nature.



Have a good night everyone, hope your spirits are as high in life as mine are in proof.

It's not just my 10 minutes . I don't begrudge you that . It's the cumulative minutes of everyone's time you are taking up to no productive end when you are asking to be hand fed instead of getting it on your own when it is placed in front of you .

[Stainless]

Hello NJen, if you are producing Co2 like ' MAD ' AND SG IS NOT CHANGING???? get another hydrometer,,,, are you using a 'proof and trailles' hydrometer? I cany see from yer pic.too fuddled for me , and how do ye get a zero on PH(eyes aint what they used to be?) yer PH is very low and you would want about 7 on water only.

[Stainless]

Go to ' TRIED N TRUE' You won't go wrong there. N,,,,,,,,,,,,,, TB is tryin to help you....... Look up Crankys spoon feedin thread, it's in many members signatures.
Take care n happy stillin.
Will

[shadylane]

@ NJen
Just a suggestion
Your recipe isn't very good.
Too much sugar, not enough nutrients, nothing to control the pH
Also, the yeast your using, would like it to be warmer than 75f
I found this, using the HD Google search at the top of the page. the key words were' yeast bomb and crushed oyster shells
Here's your reading assignment for today.
https://www.google.com/search?rls=en-us ... ter+shells" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Stainless]

Shady,,,,, crusted oyster shells? Molluscs of the world unite.

[jb-texshine]

If you are gonna go read then I suggest starting with a post called "a little spoonfeeding for new and novice distillers" the link can be found in rads signature about 4 posts up from this one. I would also suggest a recipe,followed exactly, from the tried and true section.
Your wash that didn't start , split it in half so you have two fermenters half filled,top them off with water to double the ammount of original,areate the hell out of it, throw in the rinsed shell off of 4 eggs in each, add a heaping tablespoon of tomato paste dissolved in a cup of the wash and re pitch yeast using bakers yeast from the grocery store,keep the fermenter at about 82°f. This should fix it. Won't help you understand the what,how,or why but the link I mentioned should.
One last bone, to correct pH, never use baking soda as it will create incurable ferment problems from the salt. Pickling lime is sold in most grocery stores by either the spices or the canning section. Its better to buffer than correct.Oyster shells come from the feed store as chicken grit. Pet stores also sell seashells and dead coral as aquarium decor, these work as do freshwater clam and mussel shells.
As for the attitude of other members on answering questions like these, they truly have been answered a couple thousand times. Sometimes multiple times in the past week. By telling you to go read up on such and such topic we are trying to create peers whereas just giving an answer only helps you short-term and eventually creates more questions that have already been answered such as what,how,and why which only serves to create an unending loop of the same.
Thanks for joining the site, stick around, its a awesome hobby and this site is an awesome learning resource .
Jbt

[Tater Patch Kid]

Raisins could be laced w/ preservatives, preventing the yeast from multiplying.
But the ph sounds low.

[Saltbush Bill]

They are producing CO2 like mad, so I know SOMETHING is happening,

If they are pumping out CO2 as you say ...something is defiantly happening.
How do you know for sure that your yeast is in fact producing CO2? ...airlock going hammer and tong or just a gentle fizzing on the surface?
If either of these things are happening your yeast is alive and well and has to be turning sugars into alcohol.
Are you sure your not reading your hydrometer wrong or something ?

[der wo]

One other thing, you say that an OG of 1.110 is = to 16.9%??? My hydrometer says 1.110 is not even 15%. Right about 14.5%.

The % -scale on a hydrometer gives you the abv potential for a wine or beer, not for a distillers mash. A beer or wine needs unfermented sugar for taste, a distillers mash not.
So don't use this scale for orientation except making wine or beer. Use the SG scale and the calculator on the parent site.

Very strange, that it bubbles and the SG doesn't change at all. Sorry, can't help you here.
When you open the fermenter, is there a sharp smell (CO²) or a vinegar smell? Does it taste sweet? Do you taste alcohol or vinegar?