Looks like I'm on me own :(

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Pikey
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Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by Pikey »

Been doing my head in for ages - Why can't I find any reference to "Proper" Navy Rum ? Recipe to make it - nope all I can fnd is "rum" Which however hard I try, I can't get the Full body I crave out of. Captain Morgan is one I remember with particular fondness - Then I find this :-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Morgan

"....Black - The original Captain Morgan rum, this is a full-bodied blend of pot and continuous still rums from Jamaica, Guyana & Barbados aged in oak, has a dark colour and distinctive rich taste. Available only in the United Kingdom, Germany, Scandinavia, South Africa, and some other countries. Packaged in a traditional Captain Morgan bottle with a black label highlighting the words "Jamaica Rum". 100 proof (USA - 80 proof)...."

:evil: It seems they don't think you all deserve it ! - no wonder I can't find any info on here ! :roll: :esad: :thumbdown:
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by Pikey »

At this tab, on the "Lamb's NAvy Rum" website, They tell how the British Sailors daily snifter was reduced by degrees from where it started at "half a pint a day - at an eyewatering 80% abv" :twisted: (that's 10 ounces in US lingo - our pints are bigger than yours !) down to one eighth of a pint and eventually banned altogether. Lambs is supposedly distilled in Canada ! and is popular there and in uk.

http://www.lambsnavyrum.com/lambs-story/
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by der wo »

Why do you want the Black Label Captain Morgan?
It's a cheap product. Ugly sweet and artificially spiced. What do you think how long it was in the barrel, when you get the White Rum from Captain Morgan for the same price like the Black Label? Or even cheaper, because the Black Label has 40%, the White Rum only 37.5%.
https://www.rumundco.de/Captain-Morgan-Black-Label-07l" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
https://www.rumundco.de/Captain-Morgan-White-Rum-07l" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Both 11.90€
I don't know the exact definition of Navy Rum. But I don't think, this is one.
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by Pikey »

der wo wrote:Why do you want the Black Label Captain Morgan?
It's a cheap product. Ugly sweet and artificially spiced. What do you think how long it was in the barrel, when you get the White Rum from Captain Morgan for the same price like the Black Label? Or even cheaper, because the Black Label has 40%, the White Rum only 37.5%.
.........
You winding me up der wo ? :shock:

That's like me walking into a Pub in Yorkshire and asking for a pint of Theakston's Old Peculier and the little girl behind the bar saying,

"What you want that for ? Try a nice 500 ml Carslerg !"



I think there seem to be many views of that Black Label - Maybe the numerous changes of ownership ending up in Diageo hands has had some effect - But the principle's the same -

I want proper Rum, not Bacardi, not "Golden", not "Spiced" ! Thick, Black, Fruity Rum that tastes a bit Reprobatic - like something to drink - after "mucky sex" !
Last edited by Pikey on Thu May 18, 2017 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by der wo »

The problem is, that it is legal to use spices.
Did you google about added sugar in Rum? No? You will find much information.
I don't think Captain Morgan is better than Bacardi. It's one of the cheap Rum brands. Perhaps there are some special edition bottles with good rum, but Bacardi has those too. 99% of their selled bottles are cheap.

Dark rums without added sugar and not too expensive:
- Mount Gay XO
- Appleton Estate 12
Mount Gay is a bit more interesting, Appleton more smooth.
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by Pikey »

They're both Golden mate :shock:

If I want a pint of Guinness, I don't want an IPA !

Some people like a heavily peated Scotch, something I wouldn'y give you the time of day for, when you can have a nice smooth unpeated (or Barely peated) one - but I don't go on their threads saying stuff like "what you want that for ? ...."

Tastes are different, mine is perhaps "Not refined" like some - but sometimes perhaps I like "A bit of rough" and I want to make something I can play about with to my taste.

Has anyone else tried to go down this path ?
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Have you looked at Bucaneer Bobs rum recipe with "rum essence"?
Lots of folks report rough heavy rum from blackstrap molasses.

Start a dunder pit, do a one-run rum with dunder in the thumper.
Find your funk.
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by der wo »

Whatever. If you want the taste of Captain Morgan Black, search in hd for spiced rum.

If you want a rum recipe with heavy body, try a pure blackstrap ferment. No sugar. Only molasses and water.
Then after distilling age it with oak. And then if you want experiment with spices.
If you want additional fruity flavors, you should try to use infected dunder.
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by der wo »

Pikey wrote:I want proper Rum, not Bacardi, not "Golden", not "Spiced" ! Thick, Black, Fruity Rum that tastes a bit Reprobatic - like something to drink - after "mucky sex" !
Not spiced, but black? This is the problem. How shall this work? Even 10 years in a barrel in the tropics will produce an only golden color.
After sweet love I personally like a drink dry. :ewink:
And after mucky sex something clean. :lol:
In my sexlife is no place for sweet drinks I think. :ebiggrin:
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by Pikey »

Thanks lads, I have a few ideas - I've been looking at this for some time now and Yes I have looked at BB's "Essence" - tried it, but my dunder was not dark enough and I think the molasses taste came through too strong for my taste. I will have to go "Molasses heavy", I know that and BB's recipe and notes will form a part of that.

"Black" - not too hard der wo - The "clue" lies in the parent site I believe, where it is stated "Caramel is imported from England" - Here is what I believe to be that answer :

https://www.sarsons.co.uk/range/browning-sauce

The Capn Morgan site says "a year on heavily charred oak".

My own experiments with "Bacardi(ish)" give me tastes in both "Heads" and "Tails", which I recognise strongly from the commercial brews. It may be that I concentrate on these elements and use most ot the "Hearts" for something else.

"Heads" is not a huge problem, it appears that in Europe it is less common to cut "Heads " as a matter of course than in US. "Tails" bothers me more.

"fruit from infected dunder" - Hmm - I'll give that some thought and get back to ya.

Thanks for the input so far guys. 8)

[Edit - dw - These black rums really are not That sweet. Fruity, some small spice, yes maybe a little "thick" mouthfeel, but not noticeably (to me) very sweet ]
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by nerdybrewer »

Pikey, some of us have been experimenting with live cultures in our dunder.
My current batch of Panela rum has several live culture strains and Japanese probiotics plus something from sourdough.
I've got 50 gallons of rum wash waiting to be run through my pot still right now that smells heavenly, it's a second gen infected rum.
The first gen is in a 6.5 gallon carboy aging white, I really have to keep my hands off of it for a while so it will age.
It tastes awesome right now, but quite unlike anything I've ever bought or drank anywhere.
Cranky's spoonfeeding:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52975

Time and Oak will sort it out.
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by NZChris »

Note that it is a blend of rums from different countries, pot and column distilled.

Some of the rums in the blend are likely to be very strong on hogo developed by making essence using muck holes and trash pits. You might have difficulty emulating these if you don't have access to skummings and cane trash, but I'm sure a bit of effort put into researching the subject would come up with ways of doing it.
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by Pikey »

Chris, I note your reference to skummings - my old 1907 book refers to "Skimmings" - I'm assuming that's the same thing, but have no other leads. It also refers to FRESH Dunder. Any idea what sort of junk is in that skummings ?

Nerdy - thanks for that - In some ways I'm only just taking a look at this, in others I've been trying for a while, I'll come back to the "infected dunder" mate - thanks 8)
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by NZChris »

Skummings = skimmings and is the foam skimmed off boiling cane juice.

This Bryan Davis article might give you some ideas.
https://rumdiariesblog.wordpress.com/20 ... d-the-art/
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by Yummyrum »

Pikey
Mate you're not on your own .
Captain Morgan Black was one of my favourites and I can no longer get it here in Australia .... for some reason all the bottle shops seem to think that sweet sickly spiced shit is what everyone wants nower days :thumbdown:
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by NZChris »

I can buy Captain Morgan Dark at my local bottle store. It's not as popular with my mates as Black Heart, which is blended from about a dozen distilleries in three countries I was told.

I've only tried to make the caramel coloring once and burnt it. I should have another try now that I have some aged stock to blend with.
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by HDNB »

Yummyrum wrote:Pikey
Mate you're not on your own .
Captain Morgan Black was one of my favourites and I can no longer get it here in Australia .... for some reason all the bottle shops seem to think that sweet sickly spiced shit is what everyone wants nower days :thumbdown:
I think that's the case all over. A friend runs a likker store here and says vodka is number 1 and spiced rum is number 2 in sales.

i'm pretty good with vodka, but lack a good spiced rum recipe. I have heard tales of a gent in Chicago that has a spiced rum recipe to die for. Despite my whining for a couple years for the secret spices, Alas the recipe has yet to be posted. But i'll keep asking.

As for heavy dark rum, pure moleass ferment has got to be enough flavour for ya and 3 years on oak with 1 oz backset per gallon makes it about as dark as i have seen a rum. It needed all 3 years though, before that it was all kinds of nastiness.
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by thecroweater »

Admiralty (naval rum) is distilled in a wooden boiler with a copper pot head. The only way you are going to duplicate it is to build a still specific for that product .
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by NZChris »

thecroweater wrote:Admiralty (naval rum) is distilled in a wooden boiler with a copper pot head. The only way you are going to duplicate it is to build a still specific for that product .
Put the wood in the pot.
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by Pikey »

Good point Chris, I understand the original Navy Rum was made in stills which had Lead pipes (worm ?) - I have no intention of duplicating that either !

I think it should be borne in mind that this drink was for the "scum of the earth". The people who in Civilian life had lived in a society depicted by Hogarth in his drawing "Gin LAne" https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesig ... h-gin-lane The Gin they drank was largely derived from the "roughest" alcohol from the Scottish distilleries and presumably the botanicals and the "Turpentine" reputedly added, was to disguise the taste !

My feeling is that many of the "Jolly Jack Tars" were already alcoholics, or close to it and the "Rum" was in response to that ? (10 ounces per day @ 80% abv takes some getting accustomed to !) As we know (those who rum molasses") The tails have a lot of cloudiness due to the various oils and I expect the Black colour was to prevent that being obvious to those drinking only from pot or metal vessels.

Similarly, I can't duplicate properly the "Skummings" part of the mixture and I'm sure the molasses I get from the feed shop are far more concentrated than those derived from the actual cane sugar production.

The main problem I have with trying to duplicate "Navy" is though, that I have no dea what it tastes like :lol:

However, people try to emulate "peated Scotch" using stainless column stills and we can only work with what we have.

I know where many of the flavours in the basic distillation lie, it's just a matter of getting the intensity right and approximating colour, texture and post distillation tastes. So that I can get close to or better than that which I have set as a target.

Chris, rather than trying to make your own caramel, you could try some of that Gravy Browning (Sarsons) I linked to - it's only aboyu £1 a bottle over here and although based on caramel, it has no sweetness noticeable and the colour is really quite intense. Very slight saltiness, but in the quantities we would need, not a problem imo.
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by thecroweater »

If you want to know what an actual naval rum made in a 250 year old wooden still buy a bottle of Pussers Admiralty rum. This is the actual British navy rum made the same way in the same stills, there are/were others but this was the British Admiralty rum, putting some sticks in the still ain't gonna do a thing. As far as lead pipes nar I don't think so. Google pussers rum to see their stills, as far as I know there are only two or there of these sorts of distilleries still in production
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by NeillNI »

I thought Pussers was the one I remember them all drinking.. though in fairness, when they were on shore leave, it was all fair game :ebiggrin:
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by der wo »

http://pussersrum.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
The rich flavour of Pusser’s Rum is all natural—no artificial flavouring or colouring is added.

But here:
http://www.drecon.dk/index.php/17-list-of-rum-measured" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
The Rums of Pusser's contain between 6 and 38g sugar per liter.

Oh wait, "no artificial flavouring or colouring". Sugar and caramel is natural flavouring and colouring... :lol:

And btw the color is only golden.

It's ok to like those rums. I also like some sweet foods. But with Rum I have a general problem, everything is faked here. Not only sugar, also vanillin and other things.
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by NeillNI »

I was a soldier, so never drank the stuff :lol:
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by der wo »

And btw, Pusser's Rum is partially from potstills. 1% or 90%, nobody knows.
http://pussersrum.com/house-of-pussers/ ... rum-blend/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Pusser’s Rum is a blend made in part from Wooden Pot Stills.
Pusser’s Rum is the product of five stills, three in Guyana and two in Trinidad.
So it is not like 250years ago. It's probably four huge column stills and one old wooden museum piece potstill for the image.

And here they lie:
http://pussers.com/pussers-history/the- ... ifference/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
The others, including the Mt. Gay, Appletons, Myers, the Bacardi’s and so forth, for the most part will have their taste buried in the Coke. Most will greatly sweeten the drink because of the extra sugar that will have been added to achieve smoothness. By comparison, Pusser’s is all natural. No sugar or flavoring agents have been added.
So why an alcoholmeter in a Mount Gay 43% measures 42.9%, in Appleton 12 43% 42.7%, but in Pusser's 15 instead of 40% only 33.5%? What's in there with such a gravity if it is not sugar?
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by thecroweater »

it has always been a blend form those two locations even 300 years ago it was as were the Admiralty rums of other various Commonwealth navys such as the RNZN original Blackheart rum (now made in Fiji). I would kinda say if something has been made virtually the same way for 360 plus years its a bit rich to call it fake. Perhaps what is fake is your perception of what you think the product should be. Bottom line is the OP asked about making a Naval styled rum and hell will almost surely need a wooden boiler running a repeated recipe to achieve that goal. There might be ways to "fake" that style but I'm not aware of them. Another fact about commercial rum is just about if not absolutely all of it has and always did have Carmel or molasses added to the finished spirit. Its highly unregulated and so that amount can vary wildly.
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by Pikey »

NeillNI wrote:I was a soldier, so never drank the stuff :lol:


Bear in mind those who DID - were often beaten up when pissed and dragged semi-conscious onto wooden boats (away from any wives and kids they may have had), where they were kept as virtual slaves, for a year or several, on a "Sort of bargain" - "We have the power of life or death over you - You'll do whatever you're told and we'll keep you pissed until we get back to a port where you can escape again......If you don't do what we say, we'll thrash you til you can't stand up with this evil whip, drag you slowly on ropes under the barnacle covered hull of the ship ( I wonder how many of those drowned ? ), or hang you !" .... Stay pissed and behave ! - You "Jolly Jack Tars - you" :lol:

Quite what that has to do with the "Jessie-Juice" issued in micro-measures after having been watered down to half strength to people who were being paid in proper wages, which was finally stopped, is questionable.

No I have no idea what Real "Navy Rum" tasted like !

Undoubtably Rum has "additives" after the "stilling" and that is really no different from "Gin" and I think the oak we use is just a "flavouring" in many ways.
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by der wo »

thecroweater wrote:it has always been a blend form those two locations even 300 years ago it was as were the Admiralty rums of other various Commonwealth navys such as the RNZN original Blackheart rum (now made in Fiji). I would kinda say if something has been made virtually the same way for 360 plus years its a bit rich to call it fake. Continuous column stills 300 or 360 years ago? Or do you mean the column has to be located at the same place where 300 years ago was a potstill? :lol: Perhaps what is fake is your perception of what you think the product should be. I think, Pikey is the faked one. He sees a dark liquid and thinks it is something true. He thinks the color, the vanilla and sweetness is the result of long aging in tropical regions. This is the fake. Bottom line is the OP asked about making a Naval styled rum and hell will almost surely need a wooden boiler running a repeated recipe to achieve that goal. One wooden potstill and 4 metal column stills? There might be ways to "fake" that style but I'm not aware of them. Another fact about commercial rum is just about if not absolutely all of it has and always did have Carmel or molasses added to the finished spirit. Its highly unregulated and so that amount can vary wildly. That's why I try to find the rare ones without. At least without added sugar (this is the only thing I can measure)
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by NeillNI »

It would be interesting to write to Admiralty House and ask them if you can access the purchasing records for that time. Then you would have a producer(s), which would at least get you on the way to finding out what it was like.
As for the sailors sob story.. I get enough from my brothers :D
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Re: Looks like I'm on me own :(

Post by der wo »

Pikey wrote:No I have no idea what Real "Navy Rum" tasted like ! So why do you want to make Navy Rum? Because it sounds cool?

Undoubtably Rum has "additives" after the "stilling" and that is really no different from "Gin" and I think the oak we use is just a "flavouring" in many ways. Yes. But it's different from adding sugar, caramel, vanillin and glycerol.
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