Keep having problem with sugar wash

Sugar, and all about sugar washes. Where the primary ingredient is sugar, and other things are just used as nutrients.

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lonlyway
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Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by lonlyway » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:30 pm

Hey folks. I need some help with wash. I make 5gal batch of sugarwash and continuously encounter some problem

I use
4.5gal of water
8lb of sugar mixed with water at temp of 40c (105F)
10grams of red star DADY, sprinkled on top
And 5tbs of redstar yeast nutrition.

This gives about 1.075 of SG which should give me around 15%
It seems like it continously stall when it reach around 1.05to 1.06
I keep em in the temp controlled room around 23C(74F)
And ph level is some what between 4 and 5. I use test paper so cannot pinchpoint the ph level.

Not sure what is the problem, so I tested the yeast by adding water and sugar to see if it bubbles and yeast is still good.

Can anyone see what would be the issue here?

Thanks for reading.
Last edited by lonlyway on Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Expat
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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by Expat » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:48 pm

Based on what you described, 8lb made up to 5 gallons would only be 1.074. If you're getting a reading of 1.275 then it sounds like you're 0.2 off, so likely no stalling at 1.2 ....it's just done.

Did you taste it?


Edit- Reference: https://homedistiller.org/calcs/sugar_sg
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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by lonlyway » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:53 pm

Oh my bad. I was thinking something else and wrote 1.275. I meant 1.075 and now it sitting at 1.060 (just checked) and ita been a week.
It atill has some sweet taste inside

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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by Expat » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:32 pm

Okay, and it tastes sweet still?

Yeast should be rehydrated in like warm water before being pitched in the wash. Less stress, but I don't think that's like the problem.

If the temp and PH are good.. then I think you have a nutrition issue. Don't know what's in "5tbs of redstar yeast nutrition" but it sounds like the yeasties aren't getting what they need.

DAP and Magnesium salts recommend. Check out some of the tried and true recipes, plenty of plain sugar washes available. No need to invent.
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lonlyway
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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by lonlyway » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:37 pm

Thank you expat. Ill toss some in and see how it turns out.

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Bushman
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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by Bushman » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:39 pm

Leave it for another week, won’t hurt and when I did sugar washes most took more than a week. If it’s still sweet it hasn’t finished fermenting.

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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by CuWhistle » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:52 pm

He's using nutritional yeast which is killed yeast meant to be eaten as a dietary supplement. It wont ferment a fart.

http://redstarnutritionalyeast.com/nutritional-yeast/

It is similar to Brewers yeast supplement. "Nutritional yeast is an inactive yeast that is consumed for its nutritional content."

How it went from 1.075 to 1.060 is anybodies guess.

lonlyway
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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by lonlyway » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:37 pm

CuWhistle thanks for input. But this is the product I used

https://cdn.shoplightspeed.com/shops/60 ... trient.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... BwywEL.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Dont know where u got nutritional yeast from :s

lonlyway
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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by lonlyway » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:39 pm

Bushman wrote:Leave it for another week, won’t hurt and when I did sugar washes most took more than a week. If it’s still sweet it hasn’t finished fermenting.
Hmm many people told me it will get done in a week or two so was wondering what is going on. Ill give it a shot. Thanks!

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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by CuWhistle » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:06 pm

My apology. I only saw the yeast nutrient and not the DADY. I related to this as in my early days I tried to used inactive brewers yeast because it was cheap and thought you may have done the same.

So you say you get this problem continuously, and you keep 'em in a warmed room, which would means it has happened several times. How many? What did you do with the previous ones that have stalled at 1.050 - 1.060?

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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by Pikey » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:21 pm

10 grammes is nothing - I use 60 grammes at 30 degrees C (not Dady tho') and don't expect to be stilling for 3-4 weeks !

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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by lonlyway » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:43 pm

CuWhistle wrote:My apology. I only saw the yeast nutrient and not the DADY. I related to this as in my early days I tried to used inactive brewers yeast because it was cheap and thought you may have done the same.

So you say you get this problem continuously, and you keep 'em in a warmed room, which would means it has happened several times. How many? What did you do with the previous ones that have stalled at 1.050 - 1.060?
no worries!

This is the 5th time this is happening

I always use 4 kg of sugar (which is about 8~8.5lb) in 5.5gallon bucket with 4.5 gallons of water

Previously I have tried different ways to solve this after wait couple weeks, one was just pouring half of turbo yeast in the fermenter and make it turbo sugar wash.

Now I have more time in my hand, I'm trying to solve this issue. Base on people's recipe, this is what I learned


It cannot be more than 1.120, it will stress yeast too much

according to parent site best Ph level for sugar wash is between 4.0 to 4.5 (which I think I am achieving but god knows how accurate this test papers are)

I need DAP and according to Carlson's website, their nutritions are just DAP

Proper temperature between 70to 80 is required, and my room is temperature controlled 24/7 around 74F(23~24C)

I think I am hitting all these and its either taking forever unlike most of people or I'm doing something wrong.

Maybe I need Magnesium sulphate?

Pikey wrote:10 grammes is nothing - I use 60 grammes at 30 degrees C (not Dady tho') and don't expect to be stilling for 3-4 weeks !
Maybe I should try that. it seems alot thou

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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by Yummyrum » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:45 pm

Definitely add some epsom salts . Half a teaspoon is plenty in a 5gal ferment .
It’s one of the main ingredients other than DAP in any yeast nutrient packs I’ve bought .
Also beneficial to add some B vitamins . I grab a B1 , B6 and a B12 from mrs yummys “health cupboard” , grind them in morter and pestle ( or crush between two spoons) and add this .I’m not sure which one is the magic one but the combo seems to work just fine .

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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by CuWhistle » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:03 pm

Yeast quantities from other popular sugar recipes indicate between 10 and 15 grams is sufficient.
Odin Cornflakes recommends 1 g / litre with 1/4 of that killed by boiling as nutrient, so 15 g of live yeast.
UJSSM uses 1 TBSP which converts to approximately 10 g.
and Shady's Sugar is again 1 TBSP.

Birdwatcher is very heavy using 55 g.

As one of the first things yeast does is to multiply the colony, I doubt this is your problem. If you want to go that way try a yeast starter or yeast bomb. However, I think that the fact your ferment is starting then stalling, you should be looking elsewhere. First thing would be to try a different Ph measuring system. While your test strips should be good, you just never know. In the past all of my stalls have ended up being Ph.

lonlyway
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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by lonlyway » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:19 pm

CuWhistle wrote:Yeast quantities from other popular sugar recipes indicate between 10 and 15 grams is sufficient.
Odin Cornflakes recommends 1 g / litre with 1/4 of that killed by boiling as nutrient, so 15 g of live yeast.
UJSSM uses 1 TBSP which converts to approximately 10 g.
and Shady's Sugar is again 1 TBSP.

Birdwatcher is very heavy using 55 g.

As one of the first things yeast does is to multiply the colony, I doubt this is your problem. If you want to go that way try a yeast starter or yeast bomb. However, I think that the fact your ferment is starting then stalling, you should be looking elsewhere. First thing would be to try a different Ph measuring system. While your test strips should be good, you just never know. In the past all of my stalls have ended up being Ph.
Thanks CuWhistle

That was actually one of my guess. I don't thrust these elchipo test strips lol It might say 4.0 on 7.0 or heck even 11.0 lool
Yummyrum wrote:Definitely add some epsom salts . Half a teaspoon is plenty in a 5gal ferment .
It’s one of the main ingredients other than DAP in any yeast nutrient packs I’ve bought .
Also beneficial to add some B vitamins . I grab a B1 , B6 and a B12 from mrs yummys “health cupboard” , grind them in morter and pestle ( or crush between two spoons) and add this .I’m not sure which one is the magic one but the combo seems to work just fine .
gotcha, I'm gonna order through Amazon right away and see how that would turns out :)


Thanks alot guys! I'll keep it posted.

Can't wait to run my new reflux still

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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by greggn » Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:03 am

> 10grams of red star DADY, sprinkled on top
> I keep em in the temp controlled room around 23C(74F)


One problem is that your ferment temperature is a bit cool for DADY (which prefers 86 to 89.6f (30C – 32C) ). Get a heat source and controller, maintain a warmer ferment, and I'll bet you see it finish drier.
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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by Mr Sippy » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:47 am

lonelyway, a failed wash can be very frustrating especially when there is so much detailed info here. I admire your persistence.

You are using the exact same ingredients that I have had success with. With the LD carlson nutrients I don't believe B vitamins are necessary tho I do add 1/4 tsp epsom. I'm not sure its necessary with water of a high cal-mag content like mine but it doesnt hurt.

At what temp water are you dissolving the sugar? If you boiled or even got it very hot, you've driven out the oxygen or most of it. Mix your 10 grams of yeast in 105F water and let set for a bit to multiply the colony. Then add. Now you've skipped the aerobic phase and can rule that out as a cause.

Your temps are a bit low but not fatal. It will just finish slower. Add a light bulb, wrap the bucket or just wait it out.

With a sugar wash you needn't worry about starting pH. But buffering (capacity to resist pH change) is important. The fermentation process is acidifying. Mostly by CO2 (makes carbonic acid with water), I believe. I suspect your low starting pH with low buffering is what causes the quick stall. I didnt see any mention of oyster shells or such in your recipe. My Great Lakes tap water has an alkalinity of 400 ppm. I add 3 tsp of potassium carbonate per 5 gal and the wash will finish around 4.2. If you're on municipal water the alkalinity info is freely available. Calcium carbonate or hydroxide are common buffers but take longer to clear.

You'll get there :thumbup:

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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by shadylane » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:00 am

I'd recommend a handful of crushed oyster shell for nutrients and pH control.
Also fresh boiled yeast is an excellent nutrient
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lonlyway
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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by lonlyway » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:45 pm

I followed Sippy and Cu's advise
Put more nutrition by adding more dap and MgSo4
Than add more yeast, its up again. Now one is 1.035 and started the others with 1.105 yesterday and now its 1.09
Ill keep my eyes on ph level, its 4.3 give or take atm

Thanks guys

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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by NZChris » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:29 am

lonlyway wrote:... started the others with 1.105 yesterday...
No wonder you're having trouble. I haven't started a sugar wash that high since I was a newbie with unrealistic expectations of what my yeast could do.

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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by CuWhistle » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:44 pm

Originally you said 8 lb of sugar in 4.5 gal for a 1.075. Then you said 4 kg (8~8.5lb). 4 kg is actually 8.8 lb and you now say a 1.105 start. I use 3 to 3.2 kg (6.6~7 lb) of sugar in a full 20 litres (5 US gal) for SG around 1.055 ~ 1.060 for about 8%.
With 18 litres (4.5 US Gal) and 4 kg (8.8 lb) you are in Turbo territory. Bakers yeast will struggle to finish.

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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by ve3rpm » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:20 am

I found this informative.

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Re: Keep having problem with sugar wash

Post by bluefish_dist » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:28 am

I would suspect it’s all do to ph issues. Pitch ph should be 5.2 to 5.4 and then while fermenting it should not go below 3.8 ish.

I found getting the right ph for pitch really helped washes finish. You can over pitch as well to help kick things off. Also ph tends to crash for sugar washes, oyster shells or Calcium carbonate will prevent that.
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