Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Sugar, and all about sugar washes. Where the primary ingredient is sugar, and other things are just used as nutrients.

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by NineInchNails » Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:08 pm

zapata wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:57 am
Demy wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:08 am
I Since the discussion has shifted to inverted sugar it would be fun to make the same recipe with the only inverted / non-inverted sugar variable, I bet the difference would be zero (we're always talking about that "bite" not speed or anything).
But speed does matter for flavor too. It reduces the time competing organisms can make acids/esters. It may even prevent acids and esters from reaching equilibrium. It prevents late stage yeast metabolism and autolysis (freeing more acids, esters and other congeners). And probably many other vague processes. The rum world for example is pretty plainly split between cleaner fast ferments and funkier long ferments, with good science going back a century on the subject and unquestionable differences in the glass. Here's an example I read last night that addresses both speed of fermentation and delay before running as simply known factors. If inverted sugar ferments faster, it really may help reduce congeners responsible for the "bite"

fusel 2.png
fusel.png
Very good info, thank you very much! Makes perfect sense. It sounds as though all of my suspicions were true. I like to make Vodka that I can brag about and the stunned look on people's faces when they try it not knowing what it is before hand. My first and last big batch didn't go so well and it will be a wile before I make more. Next time I'll do well and revert back what I did before. Keep the yeast happy, ideal & stable temps, no tomato paste, use B vitamin again, buffer ph and continue using Simple Syrup.

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by ideasinbeer » Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:25 pm

Curious question here. Do folks use simple Vitamin B versus a more complete nutrient for cost reasons or something deeper that I'm missing?

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by Demy » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:56 am

zapata wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:57 am
Demy wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:08 am
I Since the discussion has shifted to inverted sugar it would be fun to make the same recipe with the only inverted / non-inverted sugar variable, I bet the difference would be zero (we're always talking about that "bite" not speed or anything).
But speed does matter for flavor too. It reduces the time competing organisms can make acids/esters. It may even prevent acids and esters from reaching equilibrium. It prevents late stage yeast metabolism and autolysis (freeing more acids, esters and other congeners). And probably many other vague processes. The rum world for example is pretty plainly split between cleaner fast ferments and funkier long ferments, with good science going back a century on the subject and unquestionable differences in the glass. Here's an example I read last night that addresses both speed of fermentation and delay before running as simply known factors. If inverted sugar ferments faster, it really may help reduce congeners responsible for the "bite"

This is good information. It should be seen how much a few days of difference can affect (for example, I don't think a noteworthy autolysis occurs). Another curiosity, from what I know a fermentation temperature in the optimal low range produces a cleaner ferment but this also means a slightly longer fermentation ........ this also clashes with short / clean. It's just a reflection, things are very complicated here!

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by Mash master » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:37 am

Saltbush Bill wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:57 pm
One of the reasons I dont make wash with tomatoe paste is that I always thought it had more "bite"....
There are better things to use imo.
Saltbush bill, what type of sugar wash do you do? I’m looking to make some liqueurs and looking for a sugar wash recipe, I was going to try birdwatchers but what would you recommend as an alternative please?

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by NineInchNails » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:59 pm

You can't go wrong with Shady's Shine. That's essentially the recipe I used and it came out perfect, better than any expectations I ever had. That's when I started having temp issues and causing recent issues with the product.

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by Saltbush Bill » Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:56 pm

Mash master wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:37 am
what would you recommend as an alternative please?
My current favourite is Shadys SS.

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by Stibnut » Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:21 am

zapata wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:48 pm
If you boiled the water to make syrup, you inverted it. Pretty sure inversion has to do with the max temp reached, even for a second, than the ratio of water, or even the acids most inversion recipes call for.

Avowed tomato paste hater here, FWIW.

Temp control is the single largest factor in neutral washes IMHO. Ph is the second (oyster shells).

I think "sugar bite" is a misnomer and it has nothing to do with sugar, it's just sugar washes are otherwise clean enough that we can identify bite. Bite to me sounds most like a non-ethanol alcohol, probably isoamyl. It's also produced more by yeast that are temp stressed and in low pH washes. Hydrosepartion of low wines will reduce it's presence at that point, salt will help separation.

It's a bitch in a column, I've been reading about it a fair bit this week, including some GCMS data on a "bench" sized continuous still (quite similar to our rigs minus the mid column feed) showing it all through a column well over 95% at the top and 2% at the bottom. It's volatility varies with ethanol concentration, it forms azeotropes with water, and it fucks up ethanol's behavior in a column too.


Carbon will pick it up.

Unless "bite" means metallic bitter. That's what I taste from TP, regardless of other congeners, no idea what it is, but it drove me away from TPW's.
I agree with you - when people talk about "bite" in sugar washes, they're most likely talking about fusel alcohols. Isoamyl alcohol (aka 3-methyl-1-butanol) is the most abundant, followed closely by its close cousins active amyl alcohol (aka 2-methyl-1-butanol) and isobutyl alcohol (2-methyl-1-propanol). n-Propanol is also present but smells/tastes close enough to ethanol not to cause many problems on its own.

Alcohols besides ethanol are difficult to remove in distillation because of their chemical similarity with ethanol and because the longer the carbon chain, the more hydrophobic a molecule becomes and the easier it is pushed into the vapor in a wash that is mostly water. Isoamyl alcohol for instance has a boiling point of 131 C, but its hydrocarbon tail makes it hydrophobic, causing it to be pushed out of solution and making it more volatile than ethanol in any wash with less than 25% ABV despite the fact that ethanol's boiling point is only 78 C. Getting rid of the aldehydes and esters (in the heads) and fatty acids (tails) is pretty straightforward because they're respectively more volatile and less volatile than ethanol in solution. But higher alcohols are tricky and tend to come along with ethanol unless you have seriously high rectification.

I'm a lab tech at a large distillery and have managed to sneak a few samples of my sugarheads onto the gas chromatograph from time to time. The thing that always stands out is that they have very high fusel concentrations despite being otherwise very pure. Methanol levels are always very low (< 25 mg/L) and good cuts can get the ethyl acetate, acetaldehyde, and acid levels down very low too, but the combined isobutanol/isoamyl alcohol/active amyl alcohol number is usually greater than 1000 mg/L. I've smelled the samples of isobutanol and isoamyl alcohols we have, along with fusel draws, and it's pretty clear that the odor/taste difference between my sugarheads and true neutral spirits is down to the fusels.

To deal with fusels, you need a good fermentation to keep the fusels fairly low (not too high of a gravity, the right amount of nutrients, a low-fusel yeast strain, etc.) and a pretty decent amount of reflux. It's something I'm working on although I can't say I've been all that satisfied with my results so far. I think I've made quite a bit of progress with the neutral I distilled this afternoon though. :D

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by ideasinbeer » Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:29 am

Stib,

That was a great read.

As far as strains of yeast, have you got any suggestions?

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by NineInchNails » Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:41 am

Stibnut wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:21 am
zapata wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:48 pm
If you boiled the water to make syrup, you inverted it. Pretty sure inversion has to do with the max temp reached, even for a second, than the ratio of water, or even the acids most inversion recipes call for.

Avowed tomato paste hater here, FWIW.

Temp control is the single largest factor in neutral washes IMHO. Ph is the second (oyster shells).

I think "sugar bite" is a misnomer and it has nothing to do with sugar, it's just sugar washes are otherwise clean enough that we can identify bite. Bite to me sounds most like a non-ethanol alcohol, probably isoamyl. It's also produced more by yeast that are temp stressed and in low pH washes. Hydrosepartion of low wines will reduce it's presence at that point, salt will help separation.

It's a bitch in a column, I've been reading about it a fair bit this week, including some GCMS data on a "bench" sized continuous still (quite similar to our rigs minus the mid column feed) showing it all through a column well over 95% at the top and 2% at the bottom. It's volatility varies with ethanol concentration, it forms azeotropes with water, and it fucks up ethanol's behavior in a column too.


Carbon will pick it up.

Unless "bite" means metallic bitter. That's what I taste from TP, regardless of other congeners, no idea what it is, but it drove me away from TPW's.
I agree with you - when people talk about "bite" in sugar washes, they're most likely talking about fusel alcohols. Isoamyl alcohol (aka 3-methyl-1-butanol) is the most abundant, followed closely by its close cousins active amyl alcohol (aka 2-methyl-1-butanol) and isobutyl alcohol (2-methyl-1-propanol). n-Propanol is also present but smells/tastes close enough to ethanol not to cause many problems on its own.

Alcohols besides ethanol are difficult to remove in distillation because of their chemical similarity with ethanol and because the longer the carbon chain, the more hydrophobic a molecule becomes and the easier it is pushed into the vapor in a wash that is mostly water. Isoamyl alcohol for instance has a boiling point of 131 C, but its hydrocarbon tail makes it hydrophobic, causing it to be pushed out of solution and making it more volatile than ethanol in any wash with less than 25% ABV despite the fact that ethanol's boiling point is only 78 C. Getting rid of the aldehydes and esters (in the heads) and fatty acids (tails) is pretty straightforward because they're respectively more volatile and less volatile than ethanol in solution. But higher alcohols are tricky and tend to come along with ethanol unless you have seriously high rectification.

I'm a lab tech at a large distillery and have managed to sneak a few samples of my sugarheads onto the gas chromatograph from time to time. The thing that always stands out is that they have very high fusel concentrations despite being otherwise very pure. Methanol levels are always very low (< 25 mg/L) and good cuts can get the ethyl acetate, acetaldehyde, and acid levels down very low too, but the combined isobutanol/isoamyl alcohol/active amyl alcohol number is usually greater than 1000 mg/L. I've smelled the samples of isobutanol and isoamyl alcohols we have, along with fusel draws, and it's pretty clear that the odor/taste difference between my sugarheads and true neutral spirits is down to the fusels.

To deal with fusels, you need a good fermentation to keep the fusels fairly low (not too high of a gravity, the right amount of nutrients, a low-fusel yeast strain, etc.) and a pretty decent amount of reflux. It's something I'm working on although I can't say I've been all that satisfied with my results so far. I think I've made quite a bit of progress with the neutral I distilled this afternoon though. :D
Thank you for your thorough and informative reply. So far I've only used Fleischmann's Yeast & GFS Yeast. My best fermentations were this summer when temps were perfect, the recipe was great (essentially Shady's Shine) and the results were unbelievable. I couldn't think of any reason to use any other yeast. Once temps started to drop, I believe that's where my issues started occurring. I totally underestimated the potential for issues because it appeared to be fermenting well. In higher temps it would be completely fermented in 3-4 days. Lower temps took 7 days or less, but apparently that's where everything went wrong. That will not happen again. I'm building a large, insulated fermentation chamber very soon and will give it another go.

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 » Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:39 pm

Stibnut wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:21 am
zapata wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:48 pm
If you boiled the water to make syrup, you inverted it. Pretty sure inversion has to do with the max temp reached, even for a second, than the ratio of water, or even the acids most inversion recipes call for.

Avowed tomato paste hater here, FWIW.

Temp control is the single largest factor in neutral washes IMHO. Ph is the second (oyster shells).

I think "sugar bite" is a misnomer and it has nothing to do with sugar, it's just sugar washes are otherwise clean enough that we can identify bite. Bite to me sounds most like a non-ethanol alcohol, probably isoamyl. It's also produced more by yeast that are temp stressed and in low pH washes. Hydrosepartion of low wines will reduce it's presence at that point, salt will help separation.

It's a bitch in a column, I've been reading about it a fair bit this week, including some GCMS data on a "bench" sized continuous still (quite similar to our rigs minus the mid column feed) showing it all through a column well over 95% at the top and 2% at the bottom. It's volatility varies with ethanol concentration, it forms azeotropes with water, and it fucks up ethanol's behavior in a column too.


Carbon will pick it up.

Unless "bite" means metallic bitter. That's what I taste from TP, regardless of other congeners, no idea what it is, but it drove me away from TPW's.
I agree with you - when people talk about "bite" in sugar washes, they're most likely talking about fusel alcohols. Isoamyl alcohol (aka 3-methyl-1-butanol) is the most abundant, followed closely by its close cousins active amyl alcohol (aka 2-methyl-1-butanol) and isobutyl alcohol (2-methyl-1-propanol). n-Propanol is also present but smells/tastes close enough to ethanol not to cause many problems on its own.

Alcohols besides ethanol are difficult to remove in distillation because of their chemical similarity with ethanol and because the longer the carbon chain, the more hydrophobic a molecule becomes and the easier it is pushed into the vapor in a wash that is mostly water. Isoamyl alcohol for instance has a boiling point of 131 C, but its hydrocarbon tail makes it hydrophobic, causing it to be pushed out of solution and making it more volatile than ethanol in any wash with less than 25% ABV despite the fact that ethanol's boiling point is only 78 C. Getting rid of the aldehydes and esters (in the heads) and fatty acids (tails) is pretty straightforward because they're respectively more volatile and less volatile than ethanol in solution. But higher alcohols are tricky and tend to come along with ethanol unless you have seriously high rectification.

I'm a lab tech at a large distillery and have managed to sneak a few samples of my sugarheads onto the gas chromatograph from time to time. The thing that always stands out is that they have very high fusel concentrations despite being otherwise very pure. Methanol levels are always very low (< 25 mg/L) and good cuts can get the ethyl acetate, acetaldehyde, and acid levels down very low too, but the combined isobutanol/isoamyl alcohol/active amyl alcohol number is usually greater than 1000 mg/L. I've smelled the samples of isobutanol and isoamyl alcohols we have, along with fusel draws, and it's pretty clear that the odor/taste difference between my sugarheads and true neutral spirits is down to the fusels.

To deal with fusels, you need a good fermentation to keep the fusels fairly low (not too high of a gravity, the right amount of nutrients, a low-fusel yeast strain, etc.) and a pretty decent amount of reflux. It's something I'm working on although I can't say I've been all that satisfied with my results so far. I think I've made quite a bit of progress with the neutral I distilled this afternoon though. :D

Stibnut,

Great info. Hopefully you can update with processes, ingredients, and equipment that you find through your lab test that help gets us closer to clean ethanol. I have subscribed to this thread to see future updates. I think when it is all said and done, it would be worth creating a thread on the pursuit of the cleanest, smoothest, and most neutral from a sugar wash. Lots, and lots of information out there including this thread. Your lab test can be a huge contribution.

In the meantime....do you have any recommendations on yeast based on your tests/experiments?

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by Stibnut » Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:20 pm

NineInchNails wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:41 am

Thank you for your thorough and informative reply. So far I've only used Fleischmann's Yeast & GFS Yeast. My best fermentations were this summer when temps were perfect, the recipe was great (essentially Shady's Shine) and the results were unbelievable. I couldn't think of any reason to use any other yeast. Once temps started to drop, I believe that's where my issues started occurring. I totally underestimated the potential for issues because it appeared to be fermenting well. In higher temps it would be completely fermented in 3-4 days. Lower temps took 7 days or less, but apparently that's where everything went wrong. That will not happen again. I'm building a large, insulated fermentation chamber very soon and will give it another go.
That is kind of strange to me - as far as I know, yeast typically produce more fusels at higher temperatures. Were there any other changes to your conditions that you can think of, such as recipe changes or pH differences? Differences in nutrient levels can be important for fusels because fusel alcohols get produced as a byproduct of the breakdown of amino acids. And have the temperatures been consistently cooler where you are, or have they fluctuated up and down? Yeast get stressed more by rapid temperature fluctuations than they do at a constant fairly high temperature.
WithOrWithoutU2 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:39 pm
Stibnut,

Great info. Hopefully you can update with processes, ingredients, and equipment that you find through your lab test that help gets us closer to clean ethanol. I have subscribed to this thread to see future updates. I think when it is all said and done, it would be worth creating a thread on the pursuit of the cleanest, smoothest, and most neutral from a sugar wash. Lots, and lots of information out there including this thread. Your lab test can be a huge contribution.

In the meantime....do you have any recommendations on yeast based on your tests/experiments?
ideasinbeer wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:29 am
Stib,

That was a great read.

As far as strains of yeast, have you got any suggestions?
My go-to yeasts have been the familiar Lallemand EC-1118, K1-V116, and 71B. I've been favoring EC-1118 for its relatively neutral characteristics, but the lowest-fusel sample I've run so far was a knockoff plum brandy I made with 71B using Vintner's Best plum wine base, which is more corn syrup than fruit juice but made a tasty pseudo-brandy anyway. I think a big part of that was just having a lower OG. I used to think that EC-1118 could handle up to an OG of 1.10 without affecting the taste and started my sugar washes in the 1.09 - 1.10 range, but the data I've collected so far clearly back up starting below 1.08 to reduce fusel production even in yeast that don't produce all that much compared to other strains.

I don't know about using bread yeast in sugar washes - I haven't tried that very often and haven't stuck a bread yeast sugar wash on the GC. My impression of them is that they tend to produce more flavor compounds including fusels and other congeners than the neutral wine yeasts like EC-1118, making them suited to flavored spirits like rum and whiskey but not so much for neutrals. However I haven't really looked into this so I could easy be off base.

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by Stibnut » Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:03 pm

I'd also like to mention a congener simulation that was put together by Hügelwilli and several other people at Hobbybrennen.ch. They used vapor-liquid equilibrium data on a bunch of different congeners including fusels, esters, aldehydes, fatty acids, and others to make a program that simulates the behavior of congeners for different ABV levels in the still and amounts of rectification. I've found it to be really interesting and insightful for questions involving how to separate congeners.

The rectification number that you input is the number of effective extra distillations you get from your still's reflux, which is usually pretty low (ballpark 0.2) for pot stills but can be far higher for reflux ones. You can roughly figure out that number for your still by working backwards from the ABV you're getting in the distillate.

It's all in German, which I don't speak, but Google Translate seems to do a decent job with the notes that explain how to use it. There's further information in this post, including a good summary of what they have found by using it. Some of the distilling terminology in German is a bit different but easy enough to figure out from context, and it's usually different in a way that sounds awesome, as befits a people* who repeatedly tried to invade their neighbors. For example they apparently call stripping runs "Raubrand" or "robbery". :D

*Excluding the Swiss ones, I guess. ;)

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by zapata » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:25 pm

Ya'll, their calculator page is off the fucking hook compared to ours. I've been playing with it off n on all day. Seriously, go look at all of 'em. From what I can tell the rectification level is just number of theoretical plates.
Good link Stibnut!

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by Stibnut » Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:15 pm

zapata wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:25 pm
Ya'll, their calculator page is off the fucking hook compared to ours. I've been playing with it off n on all day. Seriously, go look at all of 'em. From what I can tell the rectification level is just number of theoretical plates.
Good link Stibnut!
Oh yeah, they have an insanely good calculator page (link for those interested). I've been using their calculators more than any others since I first saw the site. I believe it's mostly Hügelwilli who put them together but I think he has some other collaborators at least for the congener simulation.

I believe rectification is theoretical plates minus 1, if I understand theoretical plates correctly - that is, the number of simple (no-reflux) distillations that a given distillation with reflux is equivalent to. If this is incorrect someone should correct me!

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by zapata » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:49 am

A theoretical plate is just working backwards from what actually comes out of a still and mathing what that would relate to in an impossibly ideal world. But a boiler always is really a perfect distillation stage (FYI "stage" in this sense translates back from German as "floor"). So if you have a "4 plate flute" it does 5 physical distillations. The boiler is perfect, but the plates aren't and by mathing what comes out the top we can phrase it compared to ideal plates and say it has 3.27 theoretical plates. This is the same as 3.27 "rectification" and 4.27 "distillations" again because the boiler is always a perfect 1 real distillation.

So on their calculators say your pot still has a rather large onion that causes a lot of passive reflux, then use something like .1 or .2 for rectification. Or your CCVM has 11.5 theroretical plates = rectification. A "4 plate flute" will vary with reflux ratio but is usually somewhere around 3.5 or so. You would only use "plates minus 1" if you counted your boiler as a plate, which of course you could because it is, but that isn't technically the way it's phrased.

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by Hügelwilli » Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:32 am

Yes, everything is right and almost complete.

The "Rektifikation" number in the calculators means the number of additional really happening distillations.
"Rektifikation = 1" means two distillations.
If you have a column with 100cm packing and a HETP of 10cm, you have 10 theoretical plates. But 10 additional distillations you get only at 100% reflux.
This is the difference between "Rektifikation" and additional theoretical plates.
We use this definition because it is easy and clear. The input of reflux ratio would over complicate the calculators. We included the effect of the reflux ratio or the product take off only in two calculators which are especially for columns, not for potstills: The MacCabe-Thiele-Verfahren and it's graphical implementation the Kolonnensimulator. Here you can watch how the Rektifikation number changes while you rise the product take off.

Thanks for the kind words.

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by Evil Wizard » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:21 am

NIN are you basifying the low wines to suppress esterification? soda ash or lye works, shoot for 7.0-8.0ph. I understand this will also convert ethyl acetate (nail polish remover) which is what I associate with "bite".
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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by kiwi Bruce » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:26 am

Evil Wizard wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:21 am
NIN are you basifying the low wines to suppress esterification? soda ash or lye works, shoot for 7.0-8.0ph. I understand this will also convert ethyl acetate (nail polish remover) which is what I associate with "bite".
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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by zapata » Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:44 pm

That's not a time out, he flat out doesn't exist.

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:27 am

zapata wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:57 am
If inverted sugar ferments faster, it really may help reduce congeners responsible for the "bite"

Image
Hehe, nitrogen... So, if I pitch some sports alimentary BCAA (branch-chained amino acids) I do yum-yum for my further drink, don't I? But water is no solvent for BCAAs. Whey prot dissolves much better in water, doe... never tried to ferment like that so far.

As per the nitro bomb (boiled yeast) — I did not notice any particular acceleration or improvement in the quality of fermentation. Just felt like the inquisition participant...

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Stibnut, that was a good link, thanks :egeek:
(which mr. cayars should definitely have a peep at)

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by zapata » Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:44 am

Nononononono.
If you were my wife and said "Hey honey, can you whip up some isobutyl to take to the Pratchet's tomorrow night?" I would "Yes dear" and throw a bunch of valine in a sugar wash. Or isoleucine to make active amyl alcohol, leucine to make iso-amyl.
Efficiency is between 50-80% :esurprised:
It's called the Ehrlich pathway.

The nitrogen yeast thrive on cleanly is simple, like ammonia salts, or even just urea (but don't use urea for other reasons, no, not that reason, other other reasons).

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:44 am

Yupp, that's it: clean BCAAs make the situation much much worse ;)

Thanks for reminder to all of us, Zapp!

P.S. The cooked yeast nitro bomb would easily contain some free form BCAAs, too. The point is: any significant qty. of them or not...

Never make banana brandy. And never ferment potatoes: better make banana brandy... Oct.20, 2019


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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by zapata » Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:43 am

You know, that is a good point and I have wondered that myself. Many times. Never enough to actually look into it. So... let's do that, and let's pretend like yeast in a yeast bomb is like nutritional yeast?

Nutritional yeast has 8 grams of protein per 15 gram serving, so .53 mg protein / gram. Of the protein, in mg/g of protein it has:
Valine:49 mg / g of protein
Isoleucine: 37

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by VLAGAVULVIN » Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:49 am

Looks insignificant... so, let it be... btw, I have a mate that likes to say: it's better not to create a lot of sh!t in your ferment tank than to know the way how to separate yummies and stinkies. His favs are Isla style thangs / so, pot still classics. Where each "mg" matters :)

By the way, I'm playing now with that Swiss Calculator (thanks to Stibnut again)... and still cannae make it out how the Scotts do get their esters and fatty acids. The first are killed by stripping, the rest - by spirit runs. Newly formed during the 2nd run reboiling? OK for some esters, but acids, like butyric, isovaleric and so forth? They cheat somehow, don't they?

:clap: Hey Mods, is there any way to make Mr.Stibnut a distiller at least? He is as "the noob" as I'm an alien from Nibiru, lol.

Never make banana brandy. And never ferment potatoes: better make banana brandy... Oct.20, 2019


Watching your run is making me lazy (c) James LaBrie

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by HomerD » Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:53 am

zapata wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:44 pm
That's not a time out, he flat out doesn't exist.
I hate that. He had some really good posts.

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by kiwi Bruce » Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:12 am

HomerD wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:53 am
zapata wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:44 pm
That's not a time out, he flat out doesn't exist.
I hate that. He had some really good posts.

Homer
I was told/read that he'll be back
acfixer69 wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:02 pm
Nine inch has earned some time out. Everyone remember this is a global forum. This is a joke thread. Keep it humor. I'll unlock it.
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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by HomerD » Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:39 am

Evil Wizard wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:21 am
NIN are you basifying the low wines to suppress esterification? soda ash or lye works, shoot for 7.0-8.0ph. I understand this will also convert ethyl acetate (nail polish remover) which is what I associate with "bite".
Does it matter if it’s food grade or not?

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by kiwi Bruce » Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:12 am

HomerD wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:39 am
Does it matter if it’s food grade or not?
Homer
Our concern with "food grade" is if any part of an item we use can still over...unlike beer brewing, where everything must be food grade because we drink it all... a lot of what we use stays in the spent wash :- pot-ale/dunder/backset...etc
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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by shadylane » Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:20 pm

VLAGAVULVIN wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:27 am


As per the nitro bomb (boiled yeast) — I did not notice any particular acceleration or improvement in the quality of fermentation. Just felt like the inquisition participant...
I've found the opposite to be true.
Yeast can't live on sugar alone.
And boiled yeast is an excellent nutrient.

The cleanest neutral, is made when yeast is happy with the environment it lives in
It will quickly consume the available sugar.
Then go dormant and settle to the bottom of the fermenter.

In a sugar wash, pH control is also needed
Without it, the yeast will struggle and piss unwanted chemicals

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Re: Neutral 'Bite' - Unstable Fermentation Temp, Invert Sugar or Simple Syrup?

Post by Saltbush Bill » Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:40 pm

You can read theory untill the cows come home....at the end of the day its experience and results that count......my experience and results say I'll stand by Shadys ideas on the subject.

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