Plastic Contamination

[duds2u]

I've been distilling for a quite a few years with copper and stainless steel units and have read quite number of papers on the subject of "plastics" in the vapour path. I have read quite a number of press articles about deaths from contaminated "home brew spirits" but in all my years of distilling I have never heard the answer to the following question.

"In home distilled liquor, can anyone in this admin point to even ONE confirmed case of poisoning or ill health from ANY PLASTIC during that 20 years?"

[Tater]

Been a while duds .Don't think any of the admins here are allowed to or qualified to preform autopsy's. Your question reminds me of the old days and cigarettes manufactures statements.Guess time will tell and in the meantime I at least will avoid plastics in my likker .

[astronomical]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

plasticizer health effects


seems like a fair response...


If you're looking for a case that says "So and so put spirits in _____ and it caused _____" you won't find it... Doctors don't give a shit... You're lucky if they even diagnose you correctly, expecting them to establish the cause beyond that is a leap and a jump....

[rad14701]

I don't think any autopsy findings would ever point to someone having been poisoned by plastics in contact with high proof alcohol... But, then again, those same autopsies won't point to a lot of things that have gradually sucked the life out of a corpse... Many harmful chemicals can be ingested, do damage, and then be all but purged out of the human body... But the damage is done...

All toxins don't stick with you forever like some heavy metals, such as lead, do... They have half-lifes... Alcohol is a prime example... People die as a result of alcohol abuse and may die with no blood alcohol content whatsoever... Yet it was alcohol that rotted away the kidneys, liver, esophagus, heart, brain, or whatever vital organs it damaged over a period of time... So there may be no proof that it was chemicals from plastics that caused a death, but they may be a contributing factor in the decrease in health leading up to the death...

Think about it this way... Guns don't kill people, bullets and the damage they inflict do...

[Prairiepiss]

Think about it this way... Guns don't kill people, bullets and the damage they inflict do...

Guns don't kill people. People kill people! The gun and bullets are just the tools they use.

I'm not real sure why the op posed the question. Seems unrealistic to me. And is looking at it ass backwards. So many things in this world are looked at incorrectly. They are looked at for what they are good for. And not what they could be bad for. Long term effects can't be tested properly. You can't give someone only plastic chemical laced alcohol for a long term. They need other substance so now you are introducing other things in the equation.

But if you know a plastic could leach a chemical in to your product. Why would you want to use it? Not me when in doubt leave it out.

[rad14701]

Think about it this way... Guns don't kill people, bullets and the damage they inflict do...

Guns don't kill people. People kill people! The gun and bullets are just the tools they use.

Nah, it's the bullets that do the damage - just like it's what's in the plastics... I knew a guy that died of lead poisoning caused by at least 13 rounds out a MAC-10 9mm... They never did get an accurate count...

[flyingdutchman]

Hi,
I am certainly not an admin but if you want it here is a link for what appears to be a case where plastics have been shown to be harmful http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... isphenol-a. It pertains to BPA, a compound found in plastics. In it they claim that

Since at least 1936 it has been known that BPA mimics estrogens, binding to the same receptors throughout the human body as natural female hormones. And tests have shown that the chemical can promote human breast cancer cell growth as well as decrease sperm count in rats, among other effects. These findings have raised questions about the potential health risks of BPA, especially in the wake of hosts of studies showing that it leaches from plastics and resins when they are exposed to hard use or high temperatures (as in microwaves or dishwashers).

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) found traces of BPA in nearly all of the urine samples it collected in 2004 as part of an effort to gauge the prevalence of various chemicals in the human body. It appeared at levels ranging from 33 to 80 nanograms (a nanogram is one billionth of a gram) per kilogram of body weight in any given day, levels 1,000 times lower than the 50 micrograms (one millionth of a gram) per kilogram of bodyweight per day considered safe by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the European Union's (E.U.) European Food Safety Authority (EFSA).

I am not saying that just because it was published it absolutely must be true but given the potential harmful effects of plastics or compounds found in plastics isnt it easier to just avoid the use of plastics rather than take the chance?

[Oxbo Rene]

Just use common sense bub, play safe and, you'll live forever ...............

[blind drunk]

Just use common sense bub, play safe and, you'll live forever ...............

Can I get that in writing and notarized

[Oxbo Rene]

Ha !
My ole lady happens to be a notary ! !
Of course there will be a slight handling fee ....
Please send name and address......................

[jake_leg]

The BPA controversy illustrates that dietary exposure to synthetic materials and their degradation byproducts is absolutely universal.

How effectively are plastics regulated for food preparation and storage? Well, it depends where you live, but I don't know of anywhere where they are completely banned. If you look at the list of things that the FDA permits to be added to food safe plastics it is as long as your arm, and it's hard to believe that we know absolutely everything about the toxicity of all of these substances alone and in combination. Certain materials that are assumed to be safe are permitted, subject to the rule that very little should leach out when the plastic is boiled in water over a period of hours. Below these low levels it is assumed that the risks are small compared to the inevitable exposures to these contaminants from other sources.

It is possible to make educated decisions about which synthetic materials are resistant to high temperature aqueous ethanol and the other components of distilled liquor. The more you find out about these things, the better decisions you are going to be able to take. There is no gospel to be handed down. To me it seems like the consensus position of this forum (and we all know what it is) is a reasonable starting point.

My 0.02 Euros. I am happy for my corpse to be dissected and analyzed, if anyone is offering.

[Steep-n-Rocky]

The BPA controversy illustrates that dietary exposure to synthetic materials and their degradation byproducts is absolutely universal.

I agree however I do not believe this proves that the problem is absolutely universal. In fact, we need to be careful about hyperbole. Food contamination is a problem and in our case we have choices we can make to avoid putting high proof alcohol in contact with plastics. However, this does not mean we can prove there is a problem. We need to be open to more evidence and in the mean time employ the precautionary principle, if it has a suspected risk of causing harm, in the absence of scientific consensus that it is harmful, the burden of proof that it is not harmful falls on those taking the action.

[jake_leg]

Let's take a specific example instead of talking generalities. If you've ever drunk a miniature then you've consumed spirits packaged in PET. In your opinion, would this ruling from a government bureau in consultation with the FDA constitute a consensus opinion on material safety?

http://www.ttb.gov/rulings/82-12.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And do these procedures adopted by the TTB in relation to the packaging of distilled spirits in plastic containers meet your approval? My reading of these procedures is that the burden of proof is indeed on the producer to demonstrate that novel packaging is safe.

http://www.ttb.gov/procedures/index.shtml#BM76_3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

How high is the burden of evidence being set here? Can we get past a general suspicion of an entire class of materials and start talking about specifics? The answer seems to be "not on this forum: we insist on a consensus here", and that's an answer I am happy to accept. So long as we understand this is not really the last word, just a useful rule of thumb.

[heartcut]

Yep, I'll take mine in glass. It's not a big inconvience and health problems are.

[blind drunk]

Yeah, I agree. Glass. It puzzles me why the plastic and ethanol issue keeps coming up

[Mud Mechanik]

Yeah, I agree. Glass. It puzzles me why the plastic and ethanol issue keeps coming up

Tim and Tickle got this plastic craze started again

[frozenthunderbolt]

Let's take a specific example instead of talking generalities. If you've ever drunk a miniature then you've consumed spirits packaged in PET. In your opinion, would this ruling from a government bureau in consultation with the FDA constitute a consensus opinion on material safety?

bought one once to compare my rum to. Could taste the plastic in the first sip and poured the rest down the sink.

[Durace11]

Yeah, I agree. Glass. It puzzles me why the plastic and ethanol issue keeps coming up

People are always looking for a cheaper/lighter/"safer"/easier alternative than plain old glass. I have a bunch of Better Bottles for my beer/wine/mead but I started buying glass for my spirits. Better Bottles are great for being lightweight, fairly easy to clean, less expensive(only by a little) and can be dropped on occasion.

The big reason IMO people want the on using plastic is the tubing and handling it. Metal tubing is a pain to form, shape, cut, weld, etc. Plastic is so easy you can roll it up and unroll it whenever you need it. Personally, I'll take the trouble with SS, copper & glass and wait 50 years for the news reports about if it's safe to use plastics. Then we'll see if we wasted our time and money on staying pure. I bet the Romans wish they could go back and get rid of those lead wine decanters...

[Lynx_Gen]

Puzzling this out.. some say no, (Heck even my sig says NO TO PLASTICS! but then I go and find this...

http://www.borealisgroup.com/pdf/chemic ... tab_PP.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow