Safety of Chinese Stainless Steel Condensers and Still parts?

[vagabondmountainman]

I've been reading lots of old debates in the forums about the possible dangers of ethyl carbamate from copper condensers, and thinking of switching from my copper liebig to a stainless shotgun. I'm not good enough to with welding to build one, so would need to buy it from somewhere. Looking online I saw them amazingly cheap from China through Alibaba. An entire 2" reflux column with condenser with shipping is to US is cheaper than just a condenser sold from one of the big manufacturers in the US. They are supposed to be 304 stainless, but then I was wondering what the quality might be, and if there is a way to tell if it is actually 304 stainless? I'm assuming a lot of the condensers you see online in the US are made in China, as many things are these days, but I wouldn't want to buy a condenser that could actually cause worse problems with chemicals than the copper one I currently use. I'm still on the fence about wether the levels of ethyl carbamate in my product would be high enough to cause me a problem if I'm not drinking more than a 3-4 ounces of whiskey every couple of days anyway, but it seems like one less thing to worry about. Does anyone have any experience with Chinese stills/condensers? Below is a link to the condenser I was looking at.

Thanks for any feedback

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3284014 ... 52751567.9

[Expat]

Ethyl carbamate is the same debate as methanol; if it exists at all in your product, then it's at such low levels that you'll definitely die of liver failure from ethyl alcohol hundreds of times before you'd be poisoned.

Copper has been used in commercial stills for literally hundreds of years, and their products are subject excruciatingly stringent controls. If there were a problem it would have been flagged a long time ago.

That said, I'd be more worried about some of the products coming out of China than I would home made copper.

[vagabondmountainman]

Thanks expat. You're probably right. I should just quit worrying and stick with the homemade copper and keep the condenser nice and clean. I never used to be much of a worrier, but I guess the coronavirus got me worrying about all sorts of things. The more I educate myself on all the aspects of distilling on the forum, the more things I find that could could leach into my product. I just learned yesterday my mason jar lids are bad.

[Dewstiller]

Just to throw in my 2 cents (as a novice) For the most part either stainless or copper is going to be fine in the down path/ condenser/ cooler portion of the still. I don't think whatever tiny side effects of using a stainless steel piece are tangible on any normal level for one guy.

I purchased a very similar unit from Distillex off Ali, for my condenser about 6 months ago, before all the mess and I am confident it is 304 steel. It's very high quality, heavyweight and appears nearly identical or exactly the same as some of the units sold on e bay or ama. So ordering directly from China would definitely save you some money, I wouldn't worry too much about receiving an inferior quality unit at this point. I would worry about receiving the package in a timely manner or at all. The overwhelming feeling of not wanting to support anything made in China at this point is also a factor, at least for myself.

I am looking to purchase a copper condenser myself in the near future and only time will tell down the road if it makes any noticeable difference. I am looking towards Ukraine or possibly Russia for that piece though as they are actually even difficult to find on the cheap chinese sites. I figure them guys over in that area of the world like to drink and take their moonshining seriously, so they probably have some good assortment of stuff for sale.

Biggest attraction to a copper condenser for myself is increased drink softness, increased flavor, and less cleaning from what I understand. It also looks classic and cool, but that's only a small factor in the decision. Many people are also able to DIY themselves with copper.

[vagabondmountainman]

Thanks Dew. I'm not big on buying Chinese stuff at the moment either, but the price for the condenser was pretty attractive. I'm guessing a lot of the stainless we see on ebay and even some sold by the major distilling websights is at least partially manufactured over there. I have noticed some nice looking Russian steel parts on Ebay. Dr. Gradius or something like that.

My still is all copper and it makes a very good product that I happy with. I just got a bit worried with the ethyl carbamate/urea discussions. I do get copper salts coming out every now and then on a strip run, but only when I haven't cleaned and dried it well after the last run. I was thinking if I could pick up a fairly inexpensive steel condenser I could compare the flavor on a run by switching condensers off an on during it, and see how much of a flavor difference it actually makes.

There are so many varying opinions as to whether most of the benefits of copper are just in vapor path or also in the condenser and even the speed at which you condense. Then there are people who say that 80% of your flavor comes from a good ferment and good aging practices. Same with opinions on how to treat your copper-- some of the master distillers on the site say keep a good patina and just rinse and let the still air dry and then there are others who say store it in alcohol, don't let it oxidize, and clean with coke before a run to prevent chemical bad chemical reactions. I'm slowly trying to experiment with all the variables I can and make up my mind of what matters the most. I've figured out how to make bourbon and scotch I'm happy with, I just don't want to worry about people getting sick from it.

[Dewstiller]

Yah, I have read quite a bit on that topic of copper or stainless in the down path and agree there are a lot of different opinions. It can get confusing with all the different posts you can find on the internet. As Expat said that copper has been used in commercial stills for hundreds of years though. I took a trip to Kentucky and Tennessee last year, the wife and I went on some distillery tours and it was apparent that copper was the preferred choice as I recall 100% of the time.

Could be worth a shot though to spend a few bucks on the stainless piece in your original post to see if you notice any difference or just to have as a backup. I recall the unit I bought was just about identical to that, other than the water flow valves were male instead of female. About the same price for the same 450mm length. Best of luck!

[Tennessee_Spirits]

I just received from AliExpress a reflux still of many parts and a gin basket. I ordered in February! I still <npi> have not seen the top and bottom of the gin basket. I'm amazed that in this epidemic that any of it has arrived.
The quality and build are far beyond anything I could do. It is actually too heavy and solid. Hope my boiler does not tip over. Getting the erector set unit means endless room to experiment. Hope I get to try it out soon. I plan to set it up and distill some water just to clean it out throughly.

[Windswept]

I ordered a butterfly valve for the drain on my still Jan 15 from Distillex and it hasn't arrived. Oddly enough, the shotgun condenser I ordered March 13 arrived last week.

I have two other outstanding shipments from them. Shipping at this time is a bit of a nightmare!

Quality though seems excellent, I suspect that even the stuff you order from Russia is made in China

[Desvio]

In some ways don't be fooled into thinking the parts from China are made with inferior materials, I have seen far worse produced right here in the US, and the cost is jacked up 3-5 times. In other cases the stuff I bought from the US, I later found available in China at a fraction of the cost, most likely because that's where they are sourcing it from.

There is no way I could have afforded the still I have now by sourcing locally, and yeah right now you need to have a little patience getting things, I am sure they are operating with a skeleton crew (no pun intended).

[Dewstiller]

Quality though seems excellent, I suspect that even the stuff you order from Russia is made in China

Not always. --> And..AND, and, I never (try) start a sentence with and; and I never, or no..

https://maxcuprum.com

Here is some cheap Russian stuff made in China.

Some other cheap stuff made in China..

https://hotrodstills.com

Of course I support AMERICAN made tried and true, through and through, but that day, nowadays, has some questionably with online warehouses. When any bloke with a Google reverse image search can easily see many of the American companies are setting up cheap websites, average prices, drop-shipping it onto your porch and then being around for nothing after the fact.

There are plenty of other foreign websites that offer reasonably priced and affordable equipment that does not come from China.

[MexicanCustard]

I purchased my still from china. I used Alibaba and worked directly with the manufacturer. I was able to get a still made to my specifications for a lot less than I could have domestically. It would have been a lot cheaper if not for the shipping and import fees. The quality is exceptional and after 3 runs I'm as satisfied as I could possibly be.

[Saltbush Bill]

It would have been a lot cheaper if not for the shipping and import fees.

I have to ask , was it actually cheaper in the long run, what back up service or advice will you get if any?

[vagabondmountainman]

Thanks for all the feedback. If I can find good shipping I'll try one of the Chinese steel condensers from Alibaba both as a backup and to see what difference it makes in flavor for bourbon when the rest of the still is all copper.

[Windswept]

Thanks for all the feedback. If I can find good shipping I'll try one of the Chinese steel condensers from Alibaba both as a backup and to see what difference it makes in flavor for bourbon when the rest of the still is all copper.

In my experience, it's better to go with the not-the-absolute-cheapest shipping method. It might cost you a little bit more, but it also won't take 30-50 days to arrive. YMMV

[MexicanCustard]

It would have been a lot cheaper if not for the shipping and import fees.

I have to ask , was it actually cheaper in the long run, what back up service or advice will you get if any?

Yes it was still cheaper but only by a few hundred dollars. During the price negotiation I haggled knowing the shipping cost. The unknown at the time was the $300 dollars the US government charged to get it over the border in Alaska. In hindsight I would have haggled further to offset the import fee. The total was still right at $2K for a 100L 4" 6 section bubble plate. Price that domestically and get it under $2K.

[vagabondmountainman]

I didn't know there was an import fee. That changes everything. I was looking at a nice 2" stainless shotgun condenser that would be $100 including 2 week shipping to the US. Is there a way to calculate import fees? I just assumed that was already taken care of by the seller. All the clamps and things I need to attach it to my current system are another $80 or so...if import fees are really high maybe I'll just stick with copper for now.

[Tummydoc]

The customs fees are for products over $200 shipped to USA from China. Your condenser would not have a customs fee or VAT (value added tax). I've ordered lots of stainless spools, triclamps, shotgun condenser, and even a bubble cap column from aliexpress and never paid customs fees.

[Twisted Brick]

Other distillers here have reported that Chinese sellers have been helpful agreeing to split up a large order into smaller ones in order to avoid the customs fees.

[DAD300]

There are no new commercial units made in the U.S. that have copper in the down path. They may have a copper outer shell but the inside/vapor path is stainless.

There are no FDA Compliance rules for stills. I have had multiple FDA inspections and the manufacture or material engineering of the equipment has never been discussed. There is also no product tests required before sale, so no one will know if there is EC in commercial products.

I have been to at least one very large, U.S. distillery that is using a 600 gallon all iron still. They have a current FDA Facility permit on the wall.

The U.S. is one of the few countries that is not mandating EC tests for finished booze.

So,
1) this is the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave, do what you like.
2) if you have been reading and studying, make your own decision.

If it were a question of purely finance and copper was easier, cheaper and all that was available, it might be acceptable.
But your talking about ORDERING finished condensers, so cost isn't the factor.

But remember some historical facts.

Copper has been banned from touching food on cookware.

We once ate canned food from lead sealed cans. Water pipes were sealed with lead until fifty years ago.

If we were talking about lead, there would be no question.

[vagabondmountainman]

A couple people have asked, and I realize I never put up a picture of my current set up. 26 gallon stainless brewpot boiler with a 2" pot head, reducing into 1" that I either go straight into a 1" over 3/4" liebig or across a 1" lyne arm into 5 gallon thumper and then out to the liebig. I pretty much exclusively do bourbon and scotch, as well as a few sugarheads from the second runnings of beer mashes and occasional runs of kegs of homebrew beer or cider that I've gotten tired of. I use my beer pumps to run recirculate cooling water from another 26 gallon pot to the condenser and regulate the flow. Since I took this picture I've realized I should replace my silicone funnel with metal.

How would I add one of those links to this picture at the bottom of my signature like many people on here do? I tried playing with all the settings in the profile but couldn't figure it out.

[still_stirrin]

How would I add one of those links to this picture at the bottom of my signature like many people on here do? I tried playing with all the settings in the profile but couldn't figure it out...

Edit your signature. You can add hotlinks, but I don’t think you can add a photo/attachment. Here’s a look:

8A3EEEA7-F0E7-4444-950C-F260E2537C8D.png

[vagabondmountainman]

Thanks SS

[Jr-dist]

Question if you wanted some copper in your condenser, could you make wires that dangle or are spiraled. Then place these in the tubes. You could also make the head where your vspor comes in bigger and put copper mesh there.

[Dewstiller]

Thanks for all the feedback. If I can find good shipping I'll try one of the Chinese steel condensers from Alibaba both as a backup and to see what difference it makes in flavor for bourbon when the rest of the still is all copper.

I am confused, after 2-3x reading and looking, the picture you posted does not look like an all copper still. Although it looks like you have a great spot to spend some time, I am seeing much Stainless Steel with a copper top.

[Dewstiller]

Other distillers here have reported that Chinese sellers have been helpful agreeing to split up a large order into smaller ones in order to avoid the customs fees.

The Chinese are thick as thieves always. Every time I got some random order for say $50 - the goods are always declared worth nearly $0.08 cents for promotional purposes, or some other generic nature of explanation of contents. Recently, the imports from China, before getting taxed was $800 a day per person as far as I recall.

Either way the Chinese are still thick as Thieves and will still send you whatever you want and call it $0.08 cents at the end of the day.

[Dewstiller]

There are no new commercial units made in the U.S. that have copper in the down path. They may have a copper outer shell but the inside/vapor path is stainless.

I am still looking for one of those...

[vagabondmountainman]

Hey Dew, thanks for your feedback. My boiler is a stainless steel brew pot, and my thumper keg is a stainless 5 gallon keg. Otherwise everything is copper--the pot head, lyne arm piping, thumper and condenser parts. So technically its not all copper, but I wasn't considering the boiler in there, and the condenser is what I was wanting to replace due to concerns with copper in the descending path.

[Dewstiller]

Seems like it's a heated subject that many can argue about like politics! Referencing back to several posts ago on this thread, when I visited some of the Classic Moonshine states they all had copper beginnings and endings. I say go with whatever works for your purposes at this time.

[vagabondmountainman]

Seems like it's a heated subject that many can argue about like politics! Referencing back to several posts ago on this thread, when I visited some of the Classic Moonshine states they all had copper beginnings and endings. I say go with whatever works for your purposes at this time.

Yeah thanks Dew. Lots of different opinions on the subject. I didn't want to stir up any heated debates over it, but I got a lot of good advice from people and figured out like you said to go with what works for me. There are a lot of great deals coming out of China and thanks to the feedback, some of them seem well built. Anyway, thanks to everyone for the great advice .

[arentwejusthere]

Yeah thanks Dew. Lots of different opinions on the subject. I didn't want to stir up any heated debates over it, but I got a lot of good advice from people and figured out like you said to go with what works for me. There are a lot of great deals coming out of China and thanks to the feedback, some of them seem well built. Anyway, thanks to everyone for the great advice .

I've been exactly where you are reading the threads on this in the past. Now, personally, I REFUSE to buy anything at all what-so-ever, from a place that sells finished goods for "this kind of thing", so that made the materials decision a little easier for me.