Plastics and mashing

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NormandieStill
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Plastics and mashing

Post by NormandieStill »

So I was gearing up to place an order for some 32l PP food-grade buckets for mashing and fermenting so that I can ferment multiple washes simultaneously. While price-comparing I stumbled upon the "Certificate of Conformity" which states that the bucket is safe for food contact without chemical migration at 20C for over 24hrs, at 70C for 2 hours, or 100C for 15 minutes.

A corn-based mash (HBB is my current target) requires that the mash sit at near 100C for a couple of hours and again at a little under 70C for another couple, which would suggest that there is a risk of chemical leeching into the mash from the bucket. (For the record, these are the standard brewing buckets with lids sold by most European home brew shops.)

Have I just taken the HD plastic attitude to a whole new level, or should I be preparing my second 30l keg as a mash tun?
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Demy
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Re: Plastics and mashing

Post by Demy »

If you have the possibility, I highly recommend a metal tun mash, plastic is fine for fermentation. Not only for a matter of "migration of substances" but also because heat could deform that plastic if you reach the limit temperature and thermal variations (heating-cooling) in a long period of time to deteriorate your fermenter. I add that a metal mash tun can be heated directly without moving hot water ... many advantages in my opinion.
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Re: Plastics and mashing

Post by StillerBoy »

NormandieStill wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:30 pm Have I just taken the HD plastic attitude to a whole new level, Yes

or should I be preparing my second 30l keg as a mash tun? Yes
What did you expect, that one can mash in plastic fermenters..

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NZChris
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Re: Plastics and mashing

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Try to find a mash tun that can produce enough for three or four stripping runs so that each mash provides enough low wines for a spirit run.
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Birrofilo
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Re: Plastics and mashing

Post by Birrofilo »

Truth be told, it is common in the USA, for what I read, to use a "camping cooler" as a "mash tun". Those are typically in plastic and the drainage is made with some plastic water pipes.

It is true that a typical monostep mash is something like 40' @ 63 °C which shouldn't stress the plastic more than much.

For a normal barley mash, plastic can be acceptable apparently (I don't like the idea).
For that specific corn mash at 100 °C I would stay clear of plastic.

Also, as said by @Demy, in a plastic vessel maintaining the temperature constant is a bit complicated, you cannot heat it directly, you either add hot water or you improve insulation. Camping coolers have the advantage to be well insulated and they typically stand the mash phase without losing temperature significantly. A PP fermenter would not have the same performance and, at 100°C, would in any case pose serious problems in keeping the temperature constant.
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Re: Plastics and mashing

Post by Deplorable »

There's a good number of folks on here mashing corn in HDPE drums and garbage cans. By the time you dough in corn meal with boiling water the mash is about 190°F. A little hotter than the rated maximum fill temp for the plastic.
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NormandieStill
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Re: Plastics and mashing

Post by NormandieStill »

Deplorable wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:17 pm There's a good number of folks on here mashing corn in HDPE drums and garbage cans. By the time you dough in corn meal with boiling water the mash is about 190°F. A little hotter than the rated maximum fill temp for the plastic.
Having seen all the various posts on large scale mashing I assumed that plastic was considered OK for this. It was sheer chance that I stumbled across the certificate. Interestingly the phrase "Long‐term storage at or below room temperature, including 15 min of heating up to 100 °C or 70 °C for up to 2 h" is a testing standard where the test is 10 days of contact at 40C. There is a higher testing standard which is "Any food‐contact conditions with food simulants A, B or C, at temperature exceeding 40 °C." and involves 4 hours of contact at 100C but having just skimmed through a literature review on compound migration in plastics and the international standards, I shall be converting my second keg in the short term, and investing in a 100l stainless mash tun in the long term. I will continue to use the buckets I have for fermenting, but I'll transfer the wort once cooled to pitching temp.
StillerBoy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:43 pm What did you expect, that one can mash in plastic fermenters..
Seeing as everyone seemed to be doing exactly that... yes. :-(
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NZChris
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Re: Plastics and mashing

Post by NZChris »

I insist that my wife doesn't stir our jams etc., with plastic or rubber spoons and have read, recently, that I'm not wrong to ask that. Heat and rubber/plastic is not a good combination, so do your homework.

Wood is good and I use it for cheese making, but my larger stirrers for fermenting and mashing etc. are Stainless Steel, made by friends because I don't have the skills to make stirrers large enough.

My mash tun is SS and can produce three stripping runs worth of AG mash.
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Birrofilo
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Re: Plastics and mashing

Post by Birrofilo »

Yes, I also think that plastic and high temperature is a no-no.

I use a very 60 cm long SS spoon for my mash and boil when making beer, the plastic ones are much more widespread, but I prefer not to do it.
https://www.mr-malt.it/cucchiaio-acciaio-60-cm.html

I also ruled out installing a transparent external boiling indicator in my beer kettle, which could be easily installed instead of the SS pipe, because it is made with plastic rather than borosilicate glass. Beer can boil for 40-90 minutes and that plastic is going to boil in it. Also, I don't use plastic bags for hops and for collecting debris. They would be very practical, but not healthy. My limit is the mash-out temperature of 78°C. After that, plastic disappears from the process.

For me it's only SS or borosilicate glass for boiling. Copper would be OK as well.
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Re: Plastics and mashing

Post by AlWorms »

FWIW;

I chose 70L stainless stockpots to ferment in. Plastic has a few issues that I couldn't be bothered dealing with.


NZChris wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:10 pm ...my larger stirrers for fermenting and mashing etc. are Stainless Steel
For others in NZ, "SAVE BARN" has large stainless stirrers at OK prices - Mine works well in my 70L pot, and was maybe NZ$30 or $40. They also do stainless funnels :thumbup:

Just remember to give them all a sacrificial run first :wink:
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Re: Plastics and mashing

Post by MidgetFarms »

Old thread being resurrected.

Keep an eye on local classifieds- FB marketplace and Craigslist in the US.

Tons of ppl start the hobby - find out it costs more & tastes worse than store bought (at least till you are set up & know what you are doing) & they get frustrated & quit.

Yesterday I picked up a 20L stainless brew pot with a thermometer bung, ball valve drain AND a copper wort chiller for $20.

My 5 glass carboys were $40 & my 5 gallon stainless keg was $15.

You can find good stainless tools if you are patient
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Re: Plastics and mashing

Post by squigglefunk »

I use a stainless steel pot to mash in, I do use plastic to ferment in, but the mash is not held at a high temp, it is immediately cooled down to pitching temp, I would love to get a 55 gallon stainless steel drum to ferment in but $$
NormandieStill
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Re: Plastics and mashing

Post by NormandieStill »

I've been keeping an eye out for stainless containers since I posted this question originally (Back in april I see!). There's a company selling 200L stainless barrels, but they're around 260€ a piece plus delivery from the other end of the country so probably about 350€ all in. I'm not quite there yet with this hobby. Used kegs are not that common, but will probably be my best bet in the long term. I guess that by reloading the boiler I could start a second mash as soon as the first was mashed in which would be a solution for using multiple kegs.

Otherwise I'll be going old-school and mashing in and fermenting in a wooden barrel!
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Re: Plastics and mashing

Post by Rrmuf »

.... Stainless all the way: The sole exception in my setup is secondary fermenter buckets for clearing washes @room temps or cooler for a few days to a week. ....I was thinking of switching those to milk cans at some point, but it isn't a priority.
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Re: Plastics and mashing

Post by AlWorms »

I've just purchased 2x 200l stainless barrels - they're the seamless kind too - all smooth and polished inside.

I have a heated blanket wrapped on the outside and a nitrile rubber outer insulation layer.

I didn't much like the idea of warming up plastic.

The thing with Stainless barrels, is that they are always worth money. These ones I got were used for brewing Worcestershire sauce, I got them for half the new price, here in NZ, and only an hours drive from home :clap:
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