20 years of aging in 6 days

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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by InglisHill » Sun May 03, 2015 11:25 pm

Each day is 3 years.

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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by Badmotivator » Sat May 09, 2015 11:24 pm

I just finished aging a couple of spirits for six days at 155F. One was a single malt whisky, the other was a rum. They had both been on oak (medium toast spiral) already for five months or so, but neither was very good. My wife and I tried them after two days and compared them to an untreated control. The rum had developed a much deeper darker color and a unbelievable amount of vanilla and caramel flavor. I think I liked it. :)The whiskey not so much, but it was some better than its untreated twin. By six days, however, the rum had lost its vanilla and caramel flavor! It has developed some unpleasant flavors as well, as did the whiskey.

I believe I overdid it. When I have some new make I will throw it right into my reactor with oak and then extract and hold samples over time, then evaluate all of them at once instead of relying on memory. There might be a sweet spot for this process, and if there is I'd like to find it. :)

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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by NZChris » Sun May 10, 2015 12:59 am

I can see a couple of things different to what I did.

Temperature was 6F higher.

Opened the container (probably while hot) and let air in after two days.

Did you let yours cool before finally opening them? (I did)

Is there anything else that might have made a difference?

My current test is new rum with JD chips, vanilla bean and dunder essence. The reactor now has a smaller heat source and is struggling to get over 142F.

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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by Badmotivator » Sun May 10, 2015 10:46 am

Nice. I'll try a little cooler next time too. I was venting every now and then during reaction. I'm pretty sure oxidation is one of the chemical correlates of maturation. I did let them cool before opening, but then I couldn't open the jars because of vacuum. I had to reheat them to open them.

I forgot to mention the most upsetting effect of the reaction: crazy cloudiness, esp. the rum when they cool off. Horrible. Maybe it's tails, maybe it's fatty acids, I dunno. I've gotta figure that out, or the whole thing is off. I am trying a chill filtering as soon as one bottle gets below 0C.

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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by kiwi Bruce » Sun May 10, 2015 11:33 am

Here are some photos from the news here in the US, of Cleveland's set-up. They put cut, used bourbon staves into corny kegs and pressurize them, with air I assume. They say they do several pressurization and releases cycles over three days and get spectacular results. I don't think these photos can be the production set-up as they did 10,000 plus bottles in their first year. They say they did their first tests using mason jars in a pressure cooker.
So to answer the question why speed age? The US has a whiskey shortage. Brands like Makers Mark, Black Jack. Granddad, Old Crow etc are being hogged by the Chinese, who will pay over twice as much as the distillers can get domestically. Cleveland whiskey's "Black" is going for $35.00US IF you can find it. Not a bad gig!
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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by NZChris » Sun May 10, 2015 1:03 pm

I don't figure that because some oxidation is good, more is necessarily better. His reactors build up pressure, which is a good indication that he is not exposing the likker to more air than was in the reactor originally. My current test has slightly more air because I didn't have enough new rum to make up the full charge. Still using a cork to avoid pressure or vacuum problems. The SS reactor we are building has a pressure gauge.

Is there any chance the cloudiness is fusels from keeping heads that have been through a condenser coated with them, or a late tail cut, therefore nothing to do with the 'aging'?

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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by Badmotivator » Sun May 10, 2015 1:59 pm

NZChris wrote:I don't figure that because some oxidation is good, more is necessarily better. His reactors build up pressure, which is a good indication that he is not exposing the likker to more air than was in the reactor originally. My current test has slightly more air because I didn't have enough new rum to make up the full charge. Still using a cork to avoid pressure or vacuum problems. The SS reactor we are building has a pressure gauge.

Is there any chance the cloudiness is fusels from keeping heads that have been through a condenser coated with them, or a late tail cut, therefore nothing to do with the 'aging'?
Great point, about Bryan Davis's reactors and oxygen. I hadn't thought of that. It is possible that some tails made it into my blend. In fact, that's gotta be the leading hypothesis right now.

The baffling thing about the cloudiness though is that the untreated rum, which had been on oak for five months, is clear. From left to right: 1) 120 proof untreated, 2) 80 proof untreated, 3) 80 proof treated (warm), 4) 80 proof treated (cold)
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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by NZChris » Sun May 10, 2015 2:19 pm

That's a helluva difference. Does the louche disappear if you raise the proof? If it does, how high do you have to go?

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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by Badmotivator » Sun May 10, 2015 2:29 pm

NZChris wrote:That's a helluva difference. Does the louche disappear if you raise the proof? If it does, how high do you have to go?
Strange, right? And the haze was there on the cask strength treated rum, I just didn't save any of it in that state.

I don't have any neutral spirit to test the question of re-dissolving the haze.

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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by 3d0g » Sun May 10, 2015 4:54 pm

kiwi Bruce wrote:Here are some photos from the news here in the US, of Cleveland's set-up. They put cut, used bourbon staves into corny kegs and pressurize them, with air I assume. They say they do several pressurization and releases cycles over three days and get spectacular results.
Where "spectacular" = a 60 from Gillespie - his lowest sore ever. Cleveland's missing a critical component of the aging reactions - heat.

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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by Kegg_jam » Mon May 11, 2015 3:42 am

The Cleveland reactors look insulated. Maybe there is a heat component.

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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by kiwi Bruce » Mon May 11, 2015 5:20 pm

Any of you organic chemists? I have a question about how ethanol combines with water, and if this affects maturation/aging? And should I ask this here or start a new tread? Kiwi Bruce
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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by NZChris » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:24 am

Our latest trial of rum, racked off the wood before 'aging', gets the thumbs up from the few who have tasted it.

This is the first trial we have done without wood in the reactor. I think the result demonstrates that the difference is not solely from extraction of flavors from the wood.

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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by InglisHill » Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:19 am

I'd say that works a treat. 7 out of 7 that tasted the two picked the reacted as the 'older' in a blind taste test we just had..

Thanks Chris :)

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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by Alchemist » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:05 am

kiwi Bruce wrote:Any of you organic chemists? I have a question about how ethanol combines with water, and if this affects maturation/aging? And should I ask this here or start a new tread? Kiwi Bruce
Organic chemist here and accounted for. I don't see how this would affect maturation really. They don't combine per se. There is loose hydrogen bonding, but that is all, and that isn't changed or affected to my knowledge with heat or pressure.

Now other reactions of the slew of aldehydes, esters, acids and other compounds reacting with oxygen and each other are certainly going to be affected under different temperatures and pressures. The only affect water and ethanol I see having are in their basic concentrations, i.e. more or less of each of those will affect the concentration of the other compounds and their reactions.

And just nit pick I had to toss out. Someone said "1 day equals 3 years" and 12 days equating to 40 years. Totally disagree as the 'inventor' specifically says he tested that and that it was not true as they could only make '20 year'. This makes sense to me. Whether its true that 6 days actually tastes like 20 year, the chronographs matched well enough at 6/20 probably because it was the 'end' of the reaction chain. But the path from 1-6d and 1-20y were totally different and not linear. Before and after 6 days presumably were different but didn't match anything else from a year standpoint.
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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by Brutal » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:20 am

I started ignoring this thread earlier in the year, I guess I missed out.

@NZChris have you done any more experiments like the ones here? Is there another thread?
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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by Jimbo » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:38 am

Alchemist, I read somewhere once that aging, with regard to ester formation and flavor changes in our spirits, had to do with the complex ethanol molecule picking up and attaching other molecules into locations in its chain, like receptor sites if you will that attract and attach a docking station, so to speak. I deal with electrons in my career, not molecules, but this stuff is fascinating. Can you explain how that process works, and any thoughts on how or what can be done to speed that 'attraction and bonding'. It was the impetus behind my dildo vibrator experiment posted elsewhere here, but that experiment was a bust.
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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by kiwi Bruce » Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:41 pm

This may also finally yield an answer to what "sugar bite" could be.
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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by NZChris » Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:13 pm

Brutal wrote:@NZChris have you done any more experiments like the ones here? Is there another thread?
The only trial I've done that showed no improvement, was a two year old rum that was already off the wood.

The only trial I want to do now, is white dog straight off the still.

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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by Brutal » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:06 pm

NZChris wrote:
Brutal wrote:@NZChris have you done any more experiments like the ones here? Is there another thread?
The only trial I've done that showed no improvement, was a two year old rum that was already off the wood.

The only trial I want to do now, is white dog straight off the still.
So it's fair to say this is going well? I would almost say it deserves it's own thread. The outlandish title of this one put me off and will likely put off readers in the future.
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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by kiwi Bruce » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:36 pm

Alchemist wrote:Organic chemist here and accounted for. I don't see how this would affect maturation really. They don't combine per se. There is loose hydrogen bonding, but that is all, and that isn't changed or affected to my knowledge with heat or pressure.
Hi Alchemist, I'm working on the assumption.... that ethanol can rotate on it's carbon to carbon axis. (The Newman projection) In the “eclipsed conformation”, the molecule is at it's highest energy conformation because of unfavorable interactions between the electrons in the front and back C-H bonds. A good percentage of the spirit COULD be in this state after distillation. We would taste this as Fiery and unmatured. Again working on an assumption.
As the spirit matures, it rotates on the carbon to carbon axis into the low energy “staggered conformation” The fiery taste of the spirit would diminish as this happened, and it would start to taste mellow and matured.
So is this assumption totally off base? Could dilution, heat and cold, micro-wave, ultra sound and all the other things we try to bring about a speedier maturation be aiding ethanol's rotation on the carbon to carbon axis? Kiwi Bruce
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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by NZChris » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:41 am

Brutal wrote:So it's fair to say this is going well?
This has already been answered in the thread
Brutal wrote:I would almost say it deserves it's own thread.
This is it's thread. The deviations that are creeping into the thread should have their own thread instead of getting lost here.
Brutal wrote:The outlandish title of this one put me off and will likely put off readers in the future.
Their loss.

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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by kiwi Bruce » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:58 pm

I agree with Chris. Any thread will create a "drift" of ideas without straying to far from the original concept of the start point, in this case "20 years of aging in 6 day" I would defined this as as "Speed aging/maturation" if you will. This thread has generated a lot of traction. A lot of us would like to wrap our minds around what goes on in the maturation processes and take advantage of it.
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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by S-Cackalacky » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:39 pm

It's been a long while since I read the entire thread and never really caught on to some of the process and mechanics of any practical application. Is there someone who has developed their own procedure for this and would be willing to summarize it here?
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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by kiwi Bruce » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:09 pm

Yes, give me a day or so and I'll lay it out.
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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by S-Cackalacky » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:18 pm

Thanks KB!
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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by NZChris » Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:01 pm

kiwi Bruce wrote:I agree with Chris. Any thread will create a "drift" of ideas without straying to far from the original concept of the start point, in this case "20 years of aging in 6 day" I would defined this as as "Speed aging/maturation" if you will. This thread has generated a lot of traction. A lot of us would like to wrap our minds around what goes on in the maturation processes and take advantage of it.
I see "20 years of aging in 6 days" as a specific claim made by Bryan Davis of Lost Spirits Distillery and linked to by the OP and not just a random thread title tossed out there by a bored stiller who can't be arsed doing his own research. I want to know how/if his technology can be adapted for use at hobby scale, hence my trials.

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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by RevSpaminator » Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:38 am

There is a difficulty with setting a control to check your research. How do you take samples from the same batch, to eliminate variances between runs, and side by side compare natural aged to your process?
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Re: 20 years of aging in 6 days

Post by kiwi Bruce » Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:40 am

NZChris wrote:I see "20 years of aging in 6 days" as a specific claim made by Bryan Davis of Lost Spirits Distillery and linked to by the OP and not just a random thread title tossed out there by a bored stiller who can't be arsed doing his own research. I want to know how/if his technology can be adapted for use at hobby scale, hence my trials.
I first answered this tread with the newspaper article about Cleveland whiskey back in May. Similar to Lost Spirits, Cleveland are maturing their product in days and not years. I don't know if a six to ten day maturation is feasible at the hobby scale , I would certainly like to think so. I do subscribe to Oden's long sleep after I've played around with the whisky (five weeks rest in the fridge) I feel it lets everything settle down. A final mellowing, if you will. I told SC I would post my maturing results after I had dug though my note book. I'm about 1/2 way there. What do you think.... new tread it, or hang it on here? Kiwi Bruce
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