Low ABV in sacrificial run

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LoStillo
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Low ABV in sacrificial run

Post by LoStillo »

@Moderator: I'm sorry, I post this topic in wrong thread: please move it to Novice distillers!

I've got a small copper pot still. After a first run with water, last Saturday I did a sacrificial run using some cheap wine (12% ABV). I start collect over 82 °C and stop above 95 °C.
From 1 liter wine I get 150ml alchol.
Then, using a Gay Lussac alcholmeter I measured ABV: 30%. I would have expected something about 60% - 70%. It's correct or something was going wrong?
I would like to have other running using good wine to get some brandy so please give mo advice.
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jog666
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Re: Low ABV in sacrificial run

Post by jog666 »

That dont sound bad. 12% of 1liter is 120ml. Then you factor in the water coming over with the alcohol & assuming you didnt run it down to 0%abv coming off the copper. The product coming off doesnt stay steady over the whole run. The 30% you measured is probably the average of the whole run.
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still_stirrin
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Re: Low ABV in sacrificial run

Post by still_stirrin »

You must have left a lot of the alcohol in the boiler, or it vented to the atmosphere before being condensed in the product condenser.

By the numbers, 1 liter of 12%ABV wine would (theoretically) contain 1 x 0.12 = 120ml of (100%ABV) alcohol potentially. But, your measured collection was only 30%ABV (average), which is proper for a low wines collection by the way. But, the amount collected should have been 120ml / 30%ABV = 400ml, not the 150ml you collected. So, 2/3 of the (potential) alcohol is “somewhere” other than in your collection jar.

One thing to bear in mind, you can’t, or shouldn’t try to run your potstill by temperature....it will ALWAYS lead you astray.

I believe that you shut down too soon. However, as the concentration of alcohol in the wash diminishes, it will take increasingly more time boiling to further extract more alcohol. This is aggravated by small boilers as well. I like to strip the wash until I measure the condensate at the spout at 10%ABV. This helps ensure I’ve depleted the alcohol from the boiler successfully.
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StillerBoy
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Re: Low ABV in sacrificial run

Post by StillerBoy »

LoStillo wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:17 am From 1 liter wine I get 150ml alchol.
Then, using a Gay Lussac alcholmeter I measured ABV: 30%.
A few questions.. what is the total length of the alcolmeter you have, what glass tube did you use to do the test in.. upon researching the model of alcometer stated, it state that it is 250mm in length..

Also, was the wine diluted with water..

A sample of 150ml will not be enough to do a test with, as it would have needed at least 225ml in a 300 mm glass tube..

And distilling using temperature with a pot still design is not the proper way of using that design..

Mars
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jonnys_spirit
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Re: Low ABV in sacrificial run

Post by jonnys_spirit »

What size is your still? Can you post a foto?

Thx,
jonny
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LoStillo
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Re: Low ABV in sacrificial run

Post by LoStillo »

I should add that there was a lot of wine in the boiler when I stop. Maybe I should go head controlling the heat and extracting more (next time using flame instead of electricity).

I measure ABV using a narrow cylinder so that the alcholmeter can float. I was able not to use all the 150ml to fill the cylinder.

Anyway, how can I be sure to cut away methanol without using temperature? by smelling only?
I know my pot still is too small to get something good but it is so. Maybe I could get some essential oils.
Here a pic of this run:
20200307_161433.jpg
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cranky
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Re: Low ABV in sacrificial run

Post by cranky »

You haven't been watching George's videos on youtube by any chance have you?

LoStillo wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:09 am I should add that there was a lot of wine in the boiler when I stop. Maybe I should go head controlling the heat and extracting more (next time using flame instead of electricity).
Heat the still until it starts producing then run it with a small stream of liquid coming out, ignore the thermemeter. Collect in small containers until there is no alcohol left or not much coming out.

LoStillo wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:09 am Anyway, how can I be sure to cut away methanol without using temperature? by smelling only?
By putting a piece of tape over the thermometer, then collecting in many small containers and selecting the good ones.
LoStillo wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:09 am I know my pot still is too small to get something good but it is so. Maybe I could get some essential oils.
A while back I built a 1.5 liter still for gin and I could actually get good results if I wanted to put the time into it I could make a decent enough product but it would be a lot of work. 3 or 4 stripping runs then everything back in the boiler then one final run
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still_stirrin
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Re: Low ABV in sacrificial run

Post by still_stirrin »

LoStillo wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:09 amI should add that there was a lot of wine in the boiler when I stop. Maybe I should go head controlling the heat and extracting more (next time using flame instead of electricity).
You’re using a hotplate as the heat source, so you should be able to continue the boil longer, potentially until ALL the wash is evaporated. But, you won’t need to go that far...just longer than you did.
LoStillo wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:09 amAnyway, how can I be sure to cut away methanol without using temperature? by smelling only?
Elsewhere on this website, it has been said, “the best way to use the temperature gage is to tape it over”. You cannot run a potstill, or alembic potstill like yours, by temperature.

And...unless you’re running a fruit must (wine) with a lot of marc (skins and stems), the ferment more than likely does not contain much, if any, methanol. And, the boiling points of methanol and ethanol are so close, that on a small boiler like yours, the “measured” vapor temperatures will be too mixed to use as an indication of purity. You just can’t do it!

You adjust the heat input to generate the boil rate desired to produce a very fine stream at the product condenser outlet (worm, in your case). Then, for a stripping run (strip + spirit run protocol), you collect until the low wines are at 25 to 30 %ABV. Then, rerun the low wines and make your cuts.

To accomplish this successfully, you need to ferment enough wash to charge your boiler 3 or 4 times. Then, the resulting low wines collection will recharge the boiler for your spirit run. That will produce enough spirits to make effective cuts, and that will take practice. Check out Kiwistiller’s Guide to Cuts in Cranky’s Spoon Feed hotlink in my signature. That’ll help you understand the process better. Here—> viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11640

Good luck. Be safe, responsible, and discrete.
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Corsaire
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Re: Low ABV in sacrificial run

Post by Corsaire »

As has been stated, don't run by using the thermometer.
Run by output, by controlling heat input.

Unfortunately you cannot remove methanol with a simple pot still. Methanol clings to both ethanol and water.
Fortunately, measured home distillate falls within levels the EU finds safe.
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=77481

Best of all? The cure for methanol is... ethanol. Enjoy your new still, and good of you to do a sacrificial run.
LoStillo
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Re: Low ABV in sacrificial run

Post by LoStillo »

Thank you for your help and advice.
I will do another run:
- using a better hot source
- taping over the thermometer and using (very) small containers
- running a mash from cereals (cornflakes are easy to get)
- doing strip runs before spirit run
and last but not least:
- reading and studying more and more...
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Corsaire
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Re: Low ABV in sacrificial run

Post by Corsaire »

Good on you! I started out on corn flakes and all bran type washes. Tasty tasty learning ;-)
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