Vinegar run specifics

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RocketSurgeon
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Vinegar run specifics

Post by RocketSurgeon »

At the risk of asking a question that gets me kicked from the forum, for not being able to find the answer in the 9874 "vinegar run" posts:

I read the New Distiller Lounge descriptions on the required cleaning and sacrificial runs, which didn't seem to provide the specifics necessary to accomplish the vinegar run.

This is where I might have expected the information to be: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=1548

1. What volume of wash (sugar wash here) is sufficient for a 16 gallon vessel?

2. What ratio of vinegar to water is suggested?

3. How much of the initial vessel charge needs to be run through the system? EDIT: More to the point; how long should it be run? Answered below.

I saw a few posts asking this question, but no answers.

Thanks.
Last edited by RocketSurgeon on Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by NZChris »

I've done several vinegar and sacrificial runs without ever reading any instructions anywhere.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by zed255 »

There's no official specifications, but on a new still I suggest this:

1) Charge still to about 50% capacity with water and bring to a boil at full power, no condenser water initially then after a few minutes steaming reduce power and test the condenser to see if everything works. This just verifies basic function and first test for leaks. This run only need be maybe 10 minutes or so.
2) After the water test, add vinegar to the boiler and repeat. Most shoot for a 50/50 water to vinegar mix, but if 'cleaning vinegar' is available where you are then you can go 4:1 water to vinegar. I'd run this a little longer, say 20-30 minutes.
3) Give the rig a rinse with fresh water and perform your sac run. For safety reasons use your condenser for this run, we don't want to risk a fire or explosion due to alcohol vapour being released. I suggest 1/3 to 1/2 charge is sufficient. Again 20-30 minutes of alcohol production should suffice. Many will do a full charge and treat this as a practice run, your choice.

There may be other opinions on this but so long as the still has been run through a cleaning protocol you chould be good to go. You only need to do this once on purchase or construction completion, or with any modification. Otherwise a simple rinse and dry will be good moving forward.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by greggn »

zed255 wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:32 am There's no official specifications, but on a new still I suggest this:

That was an excellent summary, zed.

To that, regarding the duration of the runs, I would only add that if you see discoloration or foriegn material in the output then obviously an extended and/or second cleaning run is needed.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by NZChris »

When it's possible to do it safely, like outdoors or in a very well ventilated area, I do like to run for at least a few minutes with no water in the condenser jacket. Outdoors, I don't turn the water on at all.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by GreenEnvy22 »

I'd think you want as little liquid in the boiler as practicable. The vinegar and later sacrificial alcohol runs use the vapor to remove contaminants. The more surface exposed to vapor the better, no?

So 50/50 vinegar mix, but just enough to keep the element covered for electric, or a couple of inches if gas

If I'm off base someone please correct me.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by RocketSurgeon »

I discovered that I inadvertently referenced the wrong link in my original post, wherein I suggested a thread that might have included the requested specifics for the Vinegar Run.

Here is the link I intended to reference, which covers Cleaning the Still for newbies: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=15489

I was unable to edit the original post.
Not to get technical, but according to chemistry alcohol is a solution.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by Durhommer »

I have an 8 gallon milkcan I used 4 gallon as it took 2 gallon vinegar to cover my element plus the 2 gallon water and steamed for an hour but that was awhile ago I'm getting ready to have to do it again
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by dunluce »

Thanks to everyone so far who posted specifics - not the original poster, but I definitely benefited from it.

I just did a vinegar run on my first still that I built. I am noticing that there is a patina on the cap and coil.....is this supposed to be there? Plus the rinse water had a blue tinge to it (which is obviously copper).

I used pickling vinegar - too strong of a solution? Is this okay, or do I need to do another run to "clean" it up?

Thanks.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by zed255 »

Some patina is fine. I find I can actually get a metallic zing to spirits when the copper is shiny penny clean. I'd just rinse and go onto the sacrificial run.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by dunluce »

Awesome, thanks Zed. Unfortunately, still waiting a few days for mash to do the sacrificial run.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by Seanjohn19 »

Is it necessary to do more than one sacrificial runs? How often do you do cleaning runs? Btw thanks this has been helpful 😊
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by NZChris »

Seanjohn19 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:34 pm Is it necessary to do more than one sacrificial runs? How often do you do cleaning runs? Btw thanks this has been helpful 😊
The purpose of vinegar and alcohol sacrificial runs is to remove toxic flux and machine oils. Personally, I don't waste a bullet on something that's already dead.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by Tabucowboy »

I do a vinegar and sacrificial run anytime I am adding new parts to my still that are in the path that my alcohol will take.
Whether I bought or made the part.

Did not do vinegar or sacrificial run when I added new cooling lines to my condenser, they are not in the alcohol path.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by Seanjohn19 »

Is there a need to do a vinegar run if the still sits not used for periods of time or would water clean it out?
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by still_stirrin »

Seanjohn19 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:15 pm Is there a need to do a vinegar run if the still sits not used for periods of time or would water clean it out?
Well, a gallon of vinegar is not expensive. It might help clean “the barn bugs” out of it....no?
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by Seanjohn19 »

Yea that's kinda what I figured. Vinegars cheap I read somewhere that it's best to do it if you leave your still for more than 3 days, I thought it might be a bit much but I'm new to this more info and help I get the better I'll make out. I don't mind doing it.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by still_stirrin »

Woah.....I’m not saying, “it is mandatory to do a cleaning run cycle” if your still has been resting for 3 days, or more. That’s rediculous.

What I’m saying is, “if your boiler and still have been in storage” for a loooonnnng time, then a simple cleaning cycle might be a good idea. Especially, since it doesn’t cost much.

Chris previously said, “why waste a bullet on something that’s already dead”. I gotta’ agree with that. But who knows what crawls into your still in the “still of the night” that you’d like to clear out before pushing your prime spirits through it?
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by SassyFrass »

I used to do a cleaning cycle every spring and anytime I changed anything in the vapor path. But I was clearing out dirt dobbers, wasp nests, piss ants and other stuff from where my rig was stored in the barn hayloft over the winter. Critters like nooks and crannys to build their homes in. And if you cook out in the woods, insects can stop up a pipe really quick.
But during cooking season I just made sure there was no obstructions in the pipes, (which is a lot easier to do with a liebig than a worm.) Back then I was running once or twice a week.
Capping off all inlets and outlets will help keep the critters out in between runs or while in storage. But corks/plugs fall out sometimes too.
But 3 days is a bit excessive.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by The Baker »

Do piss ants really exist or was that a light hearted story?

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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by SassyFrass »

Nope, little bastards actually exist, and they bite.
I live in very rural Appalachia. All kinds of biting, stinging critters share the mountains with us. And many of them love still beer and likker. Hornets and yellow jackets especially.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by Zeotropic »

The Baker wrote:Do piss ants really exist or was that a light hearted story?

Geoff
To me piss ants are the teeny little ants that love sugar and stink when irritated or squished. They have a nasty sour smell. Where I live we also have red imported fire ants and they bite and burn like fire and then like say if you get bit on the hand or the foot for many people later on the next couple joints up will ache like crazy. I hate it when I get bit on the toe and then I'm limping for the next couple days cuz my knee and hip hurt so bad.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by anzaak »

Sorry to resurrect this topic, but as I am getting up and running with a reflux column still (T500 on top of G30 Grainfather boiler) I have a question I can't seem to find an answer to.
What does a white vinegar run produce and at what outlet temperatures?
I ran a 30 min run 1:1 vinegar and water content of about 10L total.
When I had cooling water trickling I got to boil, and then nothing was coming out of the alcohol outlet.
I did get a steady stream of vinegar smelling vapor when I turned of the water flow to condenser, then after turning the water up and down slightly I got some of the vinegar smelling liquid to come out of the spirit outlet.
At this point I decided to shut it down and let it cool down and wash it out with water.

Is this the expected behavior or did I do something hinky, impatient or otherwise newbie dumb?
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by SomethingObscure »

I'm going to be doing another vinegar run. This time on the ccvm setup. While rereading on the subject I found some comments that stated because the boiling\vapour point of vinegar is higher than water you only get a concentration of about 3% in the vapour.

Which got me wondering wouldn't it be more effective\efficient to soak in much higher concentration of vinegar? Say 50l at 10%?

You would still carry out a steam run and even soak the parts while they are still piping hot. And after their soak put them back on the boiler for a sac run.

Why is a vinegar run considered more effective than a soak?

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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by ezlle71 »

If i remember correctly, you do a soak and scrub before the vinegar run. I like the cleaning ability of acidic steam molecularly scrubbing the inside of the still. Some pieces are too big to soak. I would have to have a 55 gallon drum of 50/50 water and vinegar to soak my 30 gallon copper boiler.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

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ezlle71 wrote:Some pieces are too big to soak. I would have to have a 55 gallon drum of 50/50 water and vinegar to soak my 30 gallon copper boiler.
Thanks for the response ezlle,
I agree some pieces may be too big to soak. But in my case they are not.

I wasn't asking about soaking in such a high concentration of vinegar, but more like 10%.
SomethingObscure wrote: ... because the boiling\vapour point of vinegar is higher than water you only get a concentration of about 3% in the vapour...
If it is the case that the steam from a 50/50 vinegar cleaning run has very little vinegar in it, wouldn't a soak at a higher concentration be more effective / efficient?

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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by ezlle71 »

You do what you want, vinegar and sac alcohol cleaning runs have worked great for me and others for years. Kiwi's thread that a link is posted earlier in this thread says use your vinegar for a soak and scrub then chunk it in the boiler with some water for a vinegar/water steam run. Soaking and scrubbing is great, but i think you are missing the power heat brings to the table with steam cleaning. Try it your way and let us know how it turns out.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by dragon9874 »

few things... if you don't mind my indulgence! :P
  • NZChris wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:24 pm I've done several vinegar and sacrificial runs without ever reading any instructions anywhere.
    don't know ya Chris, but pretty sure you were fairly serious w/ your comment. however... i literally LOL'd on this one! although i agree w/ ya (i know only from what i saw thru the decades)... but maybe he wasn't as fortunate? i know, i'm stretchin... but thx for the chuckle!
    d-(^^,)
  • zed255 wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:32 am There's no official specifications, but on a new still I suggest this:
    spot-flippin-on Zed! never heard of 'cleaning vinegar', i'll stick w/ my classic white vinegar, it's cheap (but will do some research on the use of other vinegars, thx)! ;-) brings me to...
  • dunluce wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:36 pm I used pickling vinegar - too strong of a solution?
    would LOVE to hear others take on this one... only ever used white, it's what my family & friends have always used. not saying you can't use anything else, but why bother? if you've got a reason, awesome! :-) i know there was an earlier mention by Zed (that i mention above) that talks about cleaning vinegar & using way less. so sounds like it's VERY possible!
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by zed255 »

There's a distilled white vinegar here in Kanuckistan that is a 10% acetic acid concentration that is sold as a cleaning product, brand name is Allen's. It is cheaper than standard / pickling vinegar and goes twice as far due to its added strength.
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Re: Vinegar run specifics

Post by cob »

I posted this yesterday in sour still.

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 8#p7691595

In addition the last time I bought vinegar labeled "cleaning vinegar" it had additives

in it that I would not want to consume, In addition it was less than 5% so read the

label and be sure you are not adding something to your still that you don't want.
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