Should reflux still be full of fluid?
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Should reflux still be full of fluid?
Running 2 of my sugar wash lowliness. Total of 5.5 gallons of 100 proof. I added 2 gallons of water and put int my mile hi 8 gallon reflux still. I had 2 coils of copper and rings in the column and had the reflux condenser between 2 glass gin baskets that were empty. I added the second so my parrot would fit. Ran slowly until the boiler pot at at 180 degrees, the entire column was filled with fluid , it would rise above the reflux condenser then spit out at least 500 ml of 190 proof . I shut it down because I can't believe that the entire column should be filed with alcohol? Is my still too full, is this correct?
I attached 2 pictures showing it running thanks for the help.- Saltbush Bill
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
Short answer , no it should not be like that....I suggest youdont try again until the issue is resolved.
Are you running gas or electric.....and how much heat/power to the boiler?
How tight is the packing in the column......can you blow through it easily?
Are you running gas or electric.....and how much heat/power to the boiler?
How tight is the packing in the column......can you blow through it easily?
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
Turn down the heat. A lot, and make sure that your packing isn't too tight. If you can't draw a breath through it without laboring it's too tight and the falling distillate can't get through it with the pressure of the rising vapor.
Once you've checked your packing, turn the heat on, and listen as the boiler heats up. As the column temp gets warm turn on the water to your RC and watch the sight glass. When the rain starts in the sight glass monitor your heat input to balance the liquid so it's just percolating at the surface of the packing with nothing coming out of the PC.
Maintain that state for 30 minutes, then reduce the water flow to your RC to begin taking product at a slow drip. Gradually increase your take off rate by balancing the heat input and the water flow to the RC.
Edit to add that you shouldn't be charging the still with 100P liquor. Especially if you don't know what the hell you're doing. Dilute it to under 80P for the safety of everyone else in the domicile.
Once you've checked your packing, turn the heat on, and listen as the boiler heats up. As the column temp gets warm turn on the water to your RC and watch the sight glass. When the rain starts in the sight glass monitor your heat input to balance the liquid so it's just percolating at the surface of the packing with nothing coming out of the PC.
Maintain that state for 30 minutes, then reduce the water flow to your RC to begin taking product at a slow drip. Gradually increase your take off rate by balancing the heat input and the water flow to the RC.
Edit to add that you shouldn't be charging the still with 100P liquor. Especially if you don't know what the hell you're doing. Dilute it to under 80P for the safety of everyone else in the domicile.
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
Does this still use gaskets with screens to retain the packing? Usually at the very base of the column. If so, can you post a pic?
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
I have the same setup as you, minus the upper second sight glass. I'll echo Deplorable and say that it sounds like the power is too high. For my setup I have the 120 volt 2 kW heater and when things are balanced I'm barely touching 40% power. Much higher and I get the flooding in the glass like you have. I'm currently using the ceramic raschig rings but I'm researching other packing materials as flooding seems to be common with those.
Also, to my admittedly very inexperienced eye, over seven gallons of wash in an eight gallon still sounds like too much. I've been running no more than five gallons in my eight gallon setup.
I've put a Y connector on the cooling water so that I can adjust the condensers separately. (I'd be interested in feedback from more experienced members as to whether or not that's a good thing to do)
Also, to my admittedly very inexperienced eye, over seven gallons of wash in an eight gallon still sounds like too much. I've been running no more than five gallons in my eight gallon setup.
I've put a Y connector on the cooling water so that I can adjust the condensers separately. (I'd be interested in feedback from more experienced members as to whether or not that's a good thing to do)
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
I agree with GrumpyOldITGuy, if you are going to control this rig, you should be in full control of each condenser individually. Control your reflux, then let some vapor through and control your product condenser separately.
Last edited by Salt Must Flow on Fri May 27, 2022 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
Plus 1 on that.Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 3:51 pm Short answer , no it should not be like that....I suggest youdont try again until the issue is resolved.
Are you running gas or electric.....and how much heat/power to the boiler?
How tight is the packing in the column......can you blow through it easily?
Shut it down, disassemble the column and give us more pics.
We want you to be safe and successful.
Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
Thanks all, I will check that today, I think based o your comments that the column is packed too tight. I added 2 rolls of copper then the Rascig rings to the top. No way could I blow thru it. My temp was set at 50%. I do have an additional pump so I will control each separately. I did proof down my wash to 80, and probably too much in the boiler so I will take 1.5 gallon out before running again. Appreciate the help.
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
When you say temp was at 50%, what are you referring to? Are you using a PID to control your power? If so, you’ll find many members on here that will tell you to throw it in the trash.amlsml wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 3:30 am Thanks all, I will check that today, I think based o your comments that the column is packed too tight. I added 2 rolls of copper then the Rascig rings to the top. No way could I blow thru it. My temp was set at 50%. I do have an additional pump so I will control each separately. I did proof down my wash to 80, and probably too much in the boiler so I will take 1.5 gallon out before running again. Appreciate the help.
Also, as alluded to earlier, your gin basket to hold packing may still create issues for you, depending on how big the holes are. You need a very unrestrictive path for falling reflux to make it down to the boiler, or else you’ll flood your column. Many members have discovered this problem, myself included. The mesh style gaskets have become pretty notorious culprits for flooding.
My solution was taking one of those mesh gaskets and cutting away a lot of it, only leaving behind a cross like shape that is strong enough to hold the weight of my packing, then placing a light layer of copper mesh on top of it to prevent the packing from falling into the boiler.
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
Unless I'm mistaken, you have, from the picture, a CM setup with the slight glass above it full of fluid..
If so, could you explain to me how the hell that slight glass was allowed to fill up with liquid?
The issue presented has everything to do with failure to understand how to run a still, and it would be best to take a step back and re-learn how a column still is to be operated..
You has failed to tell us many important things, such the size and length of column, what source of power control you are using, and what water flow setup you have, as from the picture the water flow setup is incorrect..
A picture of the full length of the column and controller would help us understand what it is you are failing to understand..
Mars
If so, could you explain to me how the hell that slight glass was allowed to fill up with liquid?
The issue presented has everything to do with failure to understand how to run a still, and it would be best to take a step back and re-learn how a column still is to be operated..
You has failed to tell us many important things, such the size and length of column, what source of power control you are using, and what water flow setup you have, as from the picture the water flow setup is incorrect..
A picture of the full length of the column and controller would help us understand what it is you are failing to understand..
Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
Its very weird indeed .
I find it strange that the liquid below the deflag is bubbling while above it , it’s not . Those deflags are just a section of 2” with a jacket around them . Why is the liquid above not also bubbling ?
I find it strange that the liquid below the deflag is bubbling while above it , it’s not . Those deflags are just a section of 2” with a jacket around them . Why is the liquid above not also bubbling ?
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https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
Why would it ? It's passing straight out to the product condenser.
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
I've never experience it with a CM but have experience something similar with an LM (concentric) unit for a few moments..
Had 1/2" semi flooding on top of packing and the rest of the open space in the slight glass (2") was clear, yet I had flooding coming over the top of the RC.. for a moment it caught me by surprise as this was the first time experiencing this with a slight glass, and realized it was the RC not cooling condensing down the vapors, and by increasing the water flow a touch, it all settle down.. a reason for operating with a slight glass is of value..
In this case, I would say that the slight glass on top of the RC was doing the same thing.. the vapors were over powering the condenser just enough to flood about it and over spill..
What needs to be remembered, a first time operator, no experience, little to no understanding still operation, water flow improperly setup, and lack of CM management understanding..
Mars
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- shadylane
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
Did you unroll the copper mesh and pack it in the column.
Or did Ya stuff the 2 rolls of mesh in as is.
+1 on needing to be able to "easily" blow through a packed column.
Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
+2 on breathing.
just for the hell of it, i tried my 1.1 metre 2" column that has 4 x 100mm mesh rolled(very tightly) and about 15 SS scrubbies rammed in.
breathing through it was still very easy.
last week i did think that the design of the top section, with the small side tube to the PC could cause some back pressure, and cause some condensing down the sides. this wouldn't be helped by the addition of a sight glass on top of the RC.
have you got a pic of the parrot? just in case that's causing additional problems (if it's plumbed in/or seperate)
just for the hell of it, i tried my 1.1 metre 2" column that has 4 x 100mm mesh rolled(very tightly) and about 15 SS scrubbies rammed in.
breathing through it was still very easy.
last week i did think that the design of the top section, with the small side tube to the PC could cause some back pressure, and cause some condensing down the sides. this wouldn't be helped by the addition of a sight glass on top of the RC.
have you got a pic of the parrot? just in case that's causing additional problems (if it's plumbed in/or seperate)
Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
I will try and answer some questions. I am using the electric controller sold with my unit by Mile Hi. I had the control set to half way. the boiler section temp was reading 180 degrees. i removed the rings from the 2 foot long 2 inch column and rerolled 2 sections of loosely wound copper mesh that fit loosely inside and easy to blow thru.both of my site glasses have no restriction, they are hollow. ( do have a mesh bottom if adding flavoring but not installed). I added another pump and separate cooling to my Relfux condenser with a valve to lessen the amount of cooling water) I use a 60 gallon trash can with water and ice for cooling both the FC and the PC. I reran the still and waited until i saw vapor reaching the RC. I turned on the RC water and watched as the Vapor Rain in the site glass and back down the column. I let it run like that for 30 minutes then turned down the water to the RC and turned on the water to my PC. I could see the vapor in the upper site glass and began to see a small trickle out of the PC and into the jar, took over 1hour to fill the first jar. The temp in the boiler was 180, the temp on top of the column was 170 . the second jar was also over an hour to fill. I had to shut down due to a power failure and monster storm. Should I raise the boiler temp or shut down the reflux condenser to keep /Users/andy/Desktop/Screen Shot 2022-05-30 at 9.40.42 AM.pnga/Users/andy/Desktop/Screen Shot 2022-05-30 at 9.42.14 AM.png steady flow? Thanks appreciate the help. a product pic of my still and the controller. I also added a second site glass above the RC and before the PC
Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
/Users/andy/Desktop/still/Screen Shot 2022-05-30 at 9.42.14 AM.jpg/Users/andy/Desktop/still/IMG_0664.jpg/Users/andy/Desktop/still/IMG_0665.jpgdownload/file.php?mode=view&id=80008
Last edited by amlsml on Tue May 31, 2022 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- shadylane
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
Your pics didn't load.
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
amlsml wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 5:43 am I reran the still and waited until i saw vapor reaching the RC. I turned on the RC water and watched as the Vapor Rain in the site glass and back down the column. I let it run like that for 30 minutes then turned down the water to the RC and turned on the water to my PC. I could see the vapor in the upper site glass and began to see a small trickle out of the PC and into the jar, took over 1hour to fill the first jar. the second jar was also over an hour to fill. Should I raise the boiler temp or shut down the reflux condenser to keep
I'm glad this run was normal. Record these settings.
A quart an hour sounds about right for a 2" packed column.
Can't answer about what to adjust yet till I see what you wanted to do.
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
There are too many variables for us to know whether you should turn the power up or not. First you need an effective packing and an adequate height of packed column to get the highest % ABV. If the packing is rolled too loose, your product's % ABV will be lower than it could be. Turning up the power could help by increasing the reflux ratio, but only to an extent. If it's rolled too tight the you know what that can lead to.
If you have an inadequate length of packed column then it is limited in its potential. They say you want the height to be at least 20x the column's diameter. 2" spools aren't ridiculously expensive so that's an easy fix if you need it.
How well copper mesh works depends on how loose/tight you roll it. Stainless scrubbers are pretty finicky with how tight/loose you pack the column. I prefer structured packing like Lava Rock because it's inexpensive, readily available, probably infinitely reusable and not finicky at all. I've found that it is difficult to not get 97% ABV using it and I'm capable of a higher takeoff rate than any other common packing materials. I always use a few rolls of copper mesh at the base of my column and then I fill the column with proper size Lava Rock. I just slap the side of the column to help nestle the packing as I fill it.
If you have an inadequate length of packed column then it is limited in its potential. They say you want the height to be at least 20x the column's diameter. 2" spools aren't ridiculously expensive so that's an easy fix if you need it.
How well copper mesh works depends on how loose/tight you roll it. Stainless scrubbers are pretty finicky with how tight/loose you pack the column. I prefer structured packing like Lava Rock because it's inexpensive, readily available, probably infinitely reusable and not finicky at all. I've found that it is difficult to not get 97% ABV using it and I'm capable of a higher takeoff rate than any other common packing materials. I always use a few rolls of copper mesh at the base of my column and then I fill the column with proper size Lava Rock. I just slap the side of the column to help nestle the packing as I fill it.
Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
Hopefully these load. Separated the RC from the PC on its own pump, let it "rain"in the RC for 1/2 hour then reduced the amount of water to the RC, took about 2 hours to get anything from the PC. as the stilll ran the water in my trash can got hotter so I added Ice to it. What temp are you trying to run the RC v PC? thanks the temp in boiler was 180, the top of column around 175.
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
Turn the RC water down or the power up a little at a time until alcohol starts to drip out the PC.
Forget about temps for now and run the column based on the output rate.
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
Would it be possible to provide a picture of the inside of the reflux condenser..
Is it one open hole or shotgun style (multi tubes).
Mars
PS.. after reviewing the picture provided early in the thread, I'm of the view you don't have CM unit, but a pot still with a jacket cooler.. a jacket cooler condenser is a condenser around the outside of the column.. if it is so, you will never be able to reflux with that setup.. a picture of the condenser would this to rest..
Is it one open hole or shotgun style (multi tubes).
Mars
PS.. after reviewing the picture provided early in the thread, I'm of the view you don't have CM unit, but a pot still with a jacket cooler.. a jacket cooler condenser is a condenser around the outside of the column.. if it is so, you will never be able to reflux with that setup.. a picture of the condenser would this to rest..
Last edited by StillerBoy on Tue May 31, 2022 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
Like shadylane said, if you reduce the flow to the reflux condenser then it will allow some vapor to slip past it so it can be condensed by the product condenser. As he also said, you can up the power too, but you'll have to learn your still. How much power to run, how to run your reflux condenser in order to obtain the ideal collection rate. The reason it took 2 hrs to begin collecting is because you have to do either to be in control and allow vapor to slip past the reflux condenser. That's also the reason your cooling reservoir got so warm. You were technically stabilizing your column for 2 hours in full reflux which will only transfer the heat to the water.
Honestly, most of these mass produced stills are designed to be inexpensively produced, sold for max profit without the end user in mind. This type of still can be optimized, but there are better reflux condensers and overall more convenient designs that make them easier to operate. This is the last thing you want to hear, but while you're learning this still ... check out other still designs. Over time it really wouldn't require much to get max performance with just a few modifications.
Honestly, most of these mass produced stills are designed to be inexpensively produced, sold for max profit without the end user in mind. This type of still can be optimized, but there are better reflux condensers and overall more convenient designs that make them easier to operate. This is the last thing you want to hear, but while you're learning this still ... check out other still designs. Over time it really wouldn't require much to get max performance with just a few modifications.
Last edited by Salt Must Flow on Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Saltbush Bill
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
I'll put money on it being one open hole, isnt that what they all are...the ones that look like that ?
- shadylane
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
That's not true. The still is a CMStillerBoy wrote: ↑Tue May 31, 2022 4:44 pm
after reviewing the picture provided early in the thread, I'm of the view you don't have CM unit, but a pot still with a jacket cooler.. a jacket cooler condenser is a condenser around the outside of the column.. if it is so, you will never be able to reflux with that setup..
Also, a single shot reflux condenser is usable for 2" and smaller columns.
What I don't like about the design is the reflux runs down the walls of the column.
Were as a dimroth, coldfinger or shotgun pisses down into the packing.
Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
This Reflux condenser is an Open hole with a jacket around it. It does look like the Reflux runs down the walls and into the packing, later in the day I ran the reflux in a separate cooling reservoir, as the cooing reservoir heated up I got more product out of my Product Condenser. All jars were coming out at 180 proof and took at least an hour to drip 32 oz. I do appreciate the help. Thanks
Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
good job, you seem to have a handle on the basics now.
8-mile do a multi-pipe deflag condenser which is probably way more efficient and controllable than the jacket RC.
maybe you should consider adding another 600mm spool to increase the column height.
8-mile do a multi-pipe deflag condenser which is probably way more efficient and controllable than the jacket RC.
maybe you should consider adding another 600mm spool to increase the column height.
Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
That's easily fixed, or at least minimized, by putting a loosely rolled length of mesh in the column in the area surrounded by the RC. Pull the center down a bit to create a "tail." That will not only improve the heat transfer of the RC but will also direct the reflux towards the center of your packing.
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Re: Should reflux still be full of fluid?
What's not true, that it's a pot still or it's a reflux column ?
It's a pot still.. why confuse a beginner into into believing he's got a reflux setup with refluxing abilities, cause this is what he questioned.. one can add all the packing he wants, and exterior cooling he's wants, it is still pot setup..
Yeah you will get some refluxing occurring, but is only passive refluxing occurring, which amount to very little in refluxing effect, and possibly less that using a thumper.. total waste of time trying to run a pot still in that configuration, as he has already experience by the times quoted in his running of the setup..
Mars
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