Fuel Permit Thread - Applying, Time frame, etc,

[Dan Call]

I sent off my permit late in November, and nothing yet. I talked to them last week, they acknowledged reciept, and they didn't say it was held up, they just said it was in their office.

I sent in everything I could think of, to eliminate questions, or better,to prevent them from being raised.

1. Permit filled out with all information, and signed.
2. Attached drawing of layout of land, fuel production facility (still house), and adjoining land.
3. Copy of drivers license, scanned and printed on color laser in high resolution.
4. Copy of tax assessors land record, purchase, ownership proof.
5. Copy of actual plat map showing land.
6. Provide multiple phone numbers, and email.

I think that's it. All unfolded in a brown 8.5 x 11 envelope.

I have not heard a thing, so I called the other day. The lady was very nice, but essentially said nothing beyond "we have received it" and I took it as encouraging that she didn't say their were problems with it.

I'm just curious for others to chime in and let me know what their experience was like. I am actually going to make fuel with this, no joke.

Also...does having a fuel permit have an effect on later opening a micro?
What about organizing your shop, records, etc.

Any input appreciated.

I"m not a newbie to distilling. I started with the Smiley Book about 7 years ago and have made around 25 runs, mostly all grain, and I lean towards all grain. I made the still in the book. I, and who isn't, am interested in making a "flute" still.

[Bayou-Ruler]

It took a long time for mine to come. Never heard from the TTB, no phone interview no visit, permit just showed up in the mail one day.


Here is Some Information: http://www.ttb.gov/industrial/fuel-alcohol-faqs.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Here is what TTB says

§ 19.674 TTB action on small plant applications.

(a) Notice of receipt. Within 15 days of receipt of an application for a small plant permit, the appropriate TTB officer will send a written notice of receipt to the applicant. The notice will include a statement as to whether the application meets the requirements of § 19.673. If the application does not meet the requirements of § 19.673, the appropriate TTB officer will return the application to the applicant, and a new 15-day period will commence upon receipt of an amended or corrected application.

(b) Action on application. Within 45 days from the date that the appropriate TTB officer sent the applicant a notice of receipt of a completed application for a small plant permit, the appropriate TTB officer will either issue the permit or give notice in writing to the applicant stating in detail the reason that a permit will not be issued. Denial of an application will not prejudice any later application for a permit by the same applicant.

(c) Failure to give notice. If the notice of receipt required by paragraph (a) is not sent, and the applicant has a receipt indicating that the appropriate TTB officer received the application, the 45-day period provided for in paragraphs (b) and (d) of this section will commence on the fifteenth day after the date the appropriate TTB officer received the application.

(d) Presumption of approval. If, within 45 days from the date of the notice to the applicant of receipt of a completed application for a small plant permit, the appropriate TTB officer has not notified the applicant of issuance of the permit or denial of the application, the application will be deemed approved and the applicant may proceed as if a permit had been issued.

(e) Limitation. The provisions of paragraphs (a) and (c) of this section apply only to the first application submitted for any one small plant in any calendar quarter and to an amended or corrected first application.

(26 U.S.C. 5181)

19.718 Required records.

A proprietor of an alcohol fuel plant must maintain records that accurately reflect the operations and transactions occurring at the plant. These records must include production, receipt, manufacture, and disposition records.

(a) Production, receipt, and manufacture records. The proprietor must maintain records of all production, receipts, and manufacture at the alcohol fuel plant. This includes records of:

(1) The quantity and proof of spirits produced;

(2) The kind and quantity of materials used to produce spirits, if the proprietor is a medium plant or large plant;

(3) The proof gallons of spirits on hand;

(4) The proof gallons of spirits received. The proprietor may use a copy of the consignor's invoice or other document received with the shipment if the proprietor records the date of receipt and quantity received;

(5) The quantities and types of materials added to each lot of spirits to render the spirits unfit for beverage use; and

(6) The quantity of fuel alcohol manufactured. Fuel alcohol may be recorded in wine gallons.

(b) Disposition records. The proprietor must maintain records of all dispositions of spirits and fuel alcohol removed from the alcohol fuel plant. Records for dispositions of fuel alcohol and spirits must be maintained separately. Required records include:

(1) The amount of fuel alcohol removed. The commercial record or other document required by § 19.729 will constitute the required record;

(2) The amount of spirits transferred. For all spirits transferred to another qualified distilled spirits plant or alcohol fuel plant the proprietor must maintain the commercial invoice or other documentation required by §§ 19.405 and 19.734;

(3) Record of other dispositions. If the proprietor has other dispositions of spirits or fuel alcohol such as losses, destruction, or redistillation, the proprietor must keep a record of those dispositions. The record must include the quantity of spirits (in proof gallons) or fuel alcohol (in wine gallons), the date of disposition, and the purpose for which used or the nature of any other disposition;

(4) Testing records. If the proprietor conducts testing and analysis of samples of spirits or fuel alcohol in accordance with § 19.749, the proprietor must keep a record of the date of the testing and the amount of spirits (in proof gallons) or fuel alcohol (in wine gallons) tested.

(26 U.S.C. 5181, 5207)

§ 19.720 Reports.

Each proprietor of an alcohol fuel plant must submit to the appropriate TTB officer an annual report of operations on form TTB F 5110.75, Alcohol Fuel Plant Report, for each calendar year. The proprietor must submit this report by January 30 following the end of the calendar year.

(26 U.S.C. 5207)

[Dan Call]

Got mine today. They have it marked as filled out on September/October, reviewed on November/December , and here it is in March. That's probably a pretty good indication of their speed in processing. I'm not complaining. I"m happy. I'm going to play by the rules and keep up with everything, file the report. You have to sample your fuel every now and then, right?

I will confess, just having this piece of paper relieves a thousand stresses I have felt before when contemplating this hobby in the past.....those are gone now.

[Prairiepiss]

I will confess, just having this piece of paper relieves a thousand stresses I have felt before when contemplating this hobby in the past.....those are gone now.

That piece of paper still doesn't mean you can make a distilled drink. So are you only making fuel?

[Dan Call]

Yes....it's just the Alchohol Fuel Permit. I can indeed distill at this very moment and be within the law.

[jholmz]

not if you drink any of it

[seabass]

Can't help but wonder if it's a good idea to give them all of your information and let them know that you're distilling. Doesn't this mean that an ATF officer could show up at any time to check on your rig? Might as well just call up the ATF and let them know that you've got a shed full of illegal likker.

[Dan Call]

Rude much jholmz?

I'm just trying to help those in the future who would do this to have an idea of the time frame of the permit, not to read remarks like that. That doesn't help anyone, and it is of no benefit to pop off like that.

I come here to learn, and try and help others from my experience, but I've seen a change in general attitude in recent years, especially from people how haven't been here very long. There are alot of knowledgeable people here, and being a distiller is serious business, serious endeavor, serious craft.

[Bayou-Ruler]

Got mine today. They have it marked as filled out on September/October, reviewed on November/December , and here it is in March. That's probably a pretty good indication of their speed in processing. I'm not complaining. I"m happy. I'm going to play by the rules and keep up with everything, file the report. You have to sample your fuel every now and then, right?

I will confess, just having this piece of paper relieves a thousand stresses I have felt before when contemplating this hobby in the past.....those are gone now.

Congratulations Dan Call, just don't sample your fuel alcohol!

[Dan Call]

Thank you!!!!

I notice you have yours too. Doesn't it feel different to be legit?

Great.

[Oxbo Rene]

Isn't there something in there that requires one to de-nature your fuel when storing or, just after having run it off ?
I don't think ya can just have a few gallons on non de-natured sitting around when the man drops in = Don't really know myself ..................

(EDIT) - Just read the deal about makin it de-natured, but still not sure about "when" ya do that, etc ...........

[Prairiepiss]

Yes....it's just the Alchohol Fuel Permit. I can indeed distill at this very moment and be within the law.

So all you are distilling is fuel? What will you be using the fuel in?

[Bayou-Ruler]

Isn't there something in there that requires one to de-nature your fuel when storing or, just after having run it off ?
I don't think ya can just have a few gallons on non de-natured sitting around when the man drops in = Don't really know myself ..................

(EDIT) - Just read the deal about makin it de-natured, but still not sure about "when" ya do that, etc ...........

Under the provisions of the Small Scale Alcohol Fuel Producer permit, the proprietor can produce, receive and store 10,000 proof gallons or less per year. The proprietor can store Ethanol on site but it must be de-natured prior to being removed from the plant premises.

[Prairiepiss]

So 5263 gallons of 95%. That's a lot of runs small scale.

[Bayou-Ruler]

So 5263 gallons of 95%. That's a lot of runs small scale.

10,000 proof gallons is the max, there is no minimum, the proprietor can actually go a year without producing any alcohol but not more than two years. If the proprietor gos more than two years the Small scale AFP will be nullified and revoked. Either way the proprietor has to maintain records and file a yearly report due by Jan 31 pertaining to the fuel plants production. To put it in perspective, with the permit the proprietor can receive ethanol from other plants and legally store it.

[Dan Call]

Prairie...yes I am going to make fuel, the permit is for fuel. I will be fermenting grain mashes to do this with, however, and sugar on occassion, too.

With regards to geting it denatured, brewhaus sells a 'dessicant'....this addition renders it as fuel. I am not under the impression that the mashing distillation process is substantially different for fuel or drinkable......it's what you do with it.

As far as TTB finding "drinkable" laying around.....they'd have to drink it to find out, and there is no provision that says "You can't have drinkable laying around," it's just that you can't USE it for drinking, only for fuel. Nor can you sell it, but you can distribute it.

As for my fuel applications, lawn more, generator, and I have a carburated 1979 Fiat X1/9 that I'm going to try the fuel with. That should be interesting.