Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Discussion and plans for legalizing our hobby.

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Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Postby Deerhunter » Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:16 am

I've been thinking about applying for the fuel permit. I live in New York and haven't done my homework as to what's required. I know many here would disagree with getting on any government state or federal database. But quite frankly I'm getting tired of hiding in my shed. I'm at the point where I ran a few batches right out in the yard. Just wanted some opinions from you guys. Some pro and cons of having the permit.
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Re: Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Postby T-Pee » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:18 am

Get a fuel permit, get on The List which allows Big Brother to barge onto your property any damn time he feels like it to "inspect".
You also need a separate building to distill in well-removed from your domicile.

God forbid you have anything drinkable within a mile of the place too.

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Re: Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Postby Bushman » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:42 am

Mash Rookie got a fuel permit but as a professional glass blower he used it as an excuse for fuel to run his burners. Always kept his equipment well hidden. That is a tough dilemma because it does put you on the radar.
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Re: Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Postby rad14701 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:23 pm

If you get a fuel permit you would need to follow all of the regulations... And then you still couldn't have UJSSM aging on oak or strawberry panty dropper or . . . . And even though you would have to record exactly where your fuel is stored on the paperwork, the entire property is subject to search without prior notification... So, if you want to make fuel, get a permit... If you want drinkable spirits, stay under the radar until home distillation, hopefully, gets legalized...

The permit might make you feel better but it doesn't protect you from prosecution in the least... You'll become more bold and then potentially have someone call you in because you aren't making fuel... Fuel makers don't normally taste test or make cuts either...
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Re: Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Postby ben stiller » Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:43 pm

As T-Pee stated you will not be allowed to "distill fuel" on the same property that you reside on in NY. I agree with Rad. Make fuel or fly under the radar and continue hiding in your shed. Maybe you need a more hospitable shed to work in. Then it won't be such a chore to hide out in it.
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Re: Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Postby conejo148 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:53 pm

I'm not a lawyer, not trying to be one. But I do have a distiller's permit. Not fuel, regular spirits. The rule regarding the still site is it must be in a lockable, secure building a minimum of 50ft from a residence..not just your house, but neighbor's also. My spirits plant is on my residential property and was granted an exception. I live in BFE, nearest neighbor is over 1/2 mile away. No churches, schools, or parks close by either. I did have to put a fence around the building with an 8ft perimeter on the 3 sides (not the entrance side.)

Second point...yes, you are subject to a no-knock inspection. That said, my state inspector said unless there is strong suspicion I am bootlegging, my still blows up, or I declare a loss of several hundred gallons of liquor I will never see a TTB agent at my site. He's been the inspector for my area for over 20 years and has never heard of a TTB agent visiting any permitted spirits plant in his time. I'm in Ohio, and there is 1 TTB agent that covers 3 states (aside from the in-house agents at places like Heaven Hill, JB, JD, etc.) My state is pretty friendly as far as letting you do what you want on your own property as long as the fed's sign off. Also, don't know if the feds share the fuel permit list with the state but I'd damn sure have a copy of it handy anytime you set up.

As far as aging stuff/making concoctions...there is no law that says you can't take Tim Smith's stuff or a rum and age it yourself. I'd ask a local bar for an empty bottle or two for show, tell 'em you're collecting bottles. Law requires you denature it with kerosene immediately upon collection but you're probably already aware of that.

On the other side, if the home distillation bill makes it out of committee, which could be next session, it'll likely pass by the end of the year. Hell, there's already 25% of the Reps and about 1/3 of the Sens co-sponsoring. It's one of those little bills that shows bipartisan work for something meaningful that an incumbent can put a feather in his cap for reaching across the aisle.
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Re: Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Postby BoydLabBuck » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:29 am

I know people want to avoid being on a list, but aren't we all on a list just by posting to this site? Sure it might take some extra legwork, but we're all on a list, somewhere.
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Re: Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Postby bluefish_dist » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:44 am

Having the fuel permit only lets you make fuel. While I dont have one, I would assume you have to track all your fermentables and all your distillate to make sure none is going to drink. That is based on what I have to track with a DSP. It really doesnt buy you anything other than being able to have the equipment without suspicion. You might even be breaking more laws if you made something to drink and had a fuel permit vs having nothing.
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Re: Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Postby captainshooch » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:10 am

Deerhunter when it comes to dealing with laws I recommend you start with the Code of Federal Regulations, title 27, chapter 1, subchapter A, subpart X
19.661 thru 19.752

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c= ... 24&idno=27

This will provide all the information you need on a federal level. You still need to research the laws for your state of residence.

The best option would be to consider the Small AFP as the requirements are not as rigorous as the larger plants.
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Re: Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Postby goinbroke2 » Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:23 am

bluefish_dist wrote: You might even be breaking more laws if you made something to drink and had a fuel permit vs having nothing.


THIS, is what I would be concerned about.
It's called due diligence and while pleading ignorance of the law is no excuse, actively misleading to avoid paying taxes will certainly increase the vigor in which they pursue.
Instead of pleading that your just a home distiller making a drop for yourself (still guilty but the sentencing judge is human) becoming a fuel plant and making "some" to drink will bring heavy fines. Think of it this way, a bag of garbage blows out of the back of your pick up, they might charge you with littering/etc. Being a "commercial business" that hauls garbage and you lose a bag, you get nailed with improperly secured load/dumping without a site permit/failure to protect environment/etc/etc/etc. If they want to get nasty (and they would if you're a business as you are held to a higher standard) you would be looking at major fines.

look at it this way, you're going to pay all the fees and associated regulations costs and then keep records on everything for 7 years, be subject to spot checks, on and on, just so you feel better about setting up in your shed? How about spending a quarter of that money and effort on setting up your shed better? Build a distilling room off the back of it and make it a place you are comfortable with and can secure. A 10ft extension on your existing garage/shed with the only entrance being an internal door you can disguise and lay stuff up against it, so unless somebody measured internal to external dimensions, they would never know there is a "back room".
I think that would be a lot cheaper and a lot safer (gov wise) than getting a fuel permit.

Again only my $.02
Numerous 57L kegs, some propane, one 220v electric with stilldragon controller. Keggle for all-Grain, two pot still tops for whisky, a 3" reflux with deflag for vodka. Coming up, a 4" perf plate column. Life is short, make whisky and drag race!
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Re: Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Postby floppy » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:33 pm

Why even let them know you have a still personal use no one but your closest friends should even know my opinion getting the license for fuel opens the doors to inspections of your facility


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Re: Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Postby jb-texshine » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:28 pm

No permit.
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Re: Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Postby skow69 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:13 am

BoydLabBuck wrote:I know people want to avoid being on a list, but aren't we all on a list just by posting to this site? Sure it might take some extra legwork, but we're all on a list, somewhere.


No. HD has over 31,000 members. How many man hours do you suppose it would take to associate each of those user handles to a real name? And you still wouldn't have grounds for a search warrant. Labor is expensive. Government agencies are always underfunded. That program would be pretty hard to justify when your boss, or Congress, wants to know where the money is going.

When you apply for a fuel permit you have done all the fed's work for them. You voluntarily put your name, address, phone number, social security number, spouse, employer, banking info, credit cards, and shoe size on a list that is inherently suspect, not to mention surrendering your constitutional right to be secure in your person, house, papers, and effects.

The only trouble you are likely to get from posting to the forum is if you brag about selling untaxed spirits or about tricking the feds by getting a fuel permit.
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Re: Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Postby T-Pee » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:01 am

skow69 wrote:The only trouble you are likely to get from posting to the forum is if you brag about selling untaxed spirits or about tricking the feds by getting a fuel permit.

And if you do, I'll lobby to have your account deleted permanently...for your own good...and the good of the site...because you're an idiot. :problem:

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Re: Fuel Permit....Yes or No

Postby goinbroke2 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:56 am

T-Pee wrote:
skow69 wrote:The only trouble you are likely to get from posting to the forum is if you brag about selling untaxed spirits or about tricking the feds by getting a fuel permit.

And if you do, I'll lobby to have your account deleted permanently...for your own good...and the good of the site...because you're an idiot. :problem:

tp

BAM! lay it out there T-pee! lol!
And yes I agree with you, when the gov finds out you actively worked to break the law....they AIN'T going to be happy!
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