R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Discussion and plans for legalizing our hobby.

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R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby yakattack » Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:58 am

Craft distilling is about to take a death blow in my Provence. The Provencal government has been working with the industry for 3 years, and they have tables a bill which will effectively kill all craft distillers. ( bill 70)

This bill will either pass or be scrapped on the 31st of the month. This bill is a reform on the tax structure, which will stifle the craft distiller and give yet another advantage to the larger players in the industry another unfair advantage.

The "Winn " government ( cock shotgun) is destroying the provence. From increased hydro bills and taxes to killing off small business.

They recently introduced slowing beer to be sold in grocery stores. With one big stipulation. The store had to have over 10 000 square feet of retail floor space.

It is truly a sad day for distilling in my Provence. There goes my dream.

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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby Ma Flodder » Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:10 am

yakattack wrote:This bill is a reform on the tax structure, which will stifle the craft distiller and give yet another advantage to the larger players in the industry another unfair advantage.

Can you elaborate?
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby Bushman » Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:46 am

Anytime someone introduces a bill without understanding the full ramifications it will have hurts our efforts. It's important to educate as many as possible. As Ma Flodder asks do you have a link to the bill.
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby yakattack » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:39 am

I do not at this point. Was listening to cbc radio this morning on the way to work, and caught an interview from a craft distiller that was forward front with the whole process. If I can find it later after work I will post it
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby yakattack » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:52 am

Here's a cursary link that I just found. I don't speak politics so I can't explain it but someone smarter than me can http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_ ... =4376#BK12
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby skow69 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:44 pm

(Yes, I live in a different country, but this seems to me to be an area where Canadian and U.S. politicians are in lock step.)

I can't tell anything from that legalese either, but the one thing that stands out to me is the title: the Building Ontario up for Everyone Act.

[rant] What the hell is that supposed to mean? It obviously does nothing to describe the legislation. And why not? Could it be they are afraid to tell you what the real purpose is? Remember the Patriot Act? How could anyone oppose a Patriot act? That should have been called the Erosion of Your Constitutional Rights Act. What's next? The Pretty Flowers and Soft Music Act that establishes a secret police force? I find this a most insulting form of propaganda. How stupid do they think we are? [/rant]

Good luck, Yak. I hope you can find a way to decode that shit and publish it in plain language so people can make an informed decision whether to support it or not. We used to think that was an essential component of democracy.
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby yakattack » Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:55 pm

I've got to much on my plate at the mment to go through the bill, but i really wish i had the time there are a few areas that i wanted to explore. such as the apprentiship into the trades section that will eventually affect me as i am still technically an apprentice carpenter.


I hear you skow, and to be frank without breaking the rules here im fed up with our provincial government and the entire structure in ontario. if it wasnt for my kids id be out of ontario so fast it would make your head soinn.

Anyways thats it for now, back to your reguarly scheduled brodcast.
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby frost021 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:30 pm

I'm not quite sure what the laws are of right now In Ont..as I'm trying to figure them all out here in NS.. but found a small section from bill C-70 which someone else may find useful by my understanding is they plan on taxing wine higher to match it with the retail price of spirits,I could be wrong though :econfused:
copied this from the link

EXPLANATORY NOTE
SCHEDULE 1
ALCOHOL AND GAMING REGULATION AND PUBLIC PROTECTION ACT, 1996
Currently, Part II of the Alcohol and Gaming Regulation and Public Protection Act, 1996 provides for consumer taxes on wine sold at winery retail stores. The taxes consist of a basic tax, a volume tax and an environmental tax. Amendments to Part II impose a phased increase to the basic rate of tax on wine and wine coolers purchased from wine boutiques, which are winery retail stores located inside the shopping area of a grocery store.
Technical amendments are made to the terminology relating to wine taxes. The method of calculating the retail price of wine is re-enacted to parallel the detailed calculation for determining the retail price of spirits.
The Act is also amended to provide that as of July 1, 2017, purchases of spirits from stores operated by a spirits manufacturer are subject to a basic tax, a volume tax and an environmental tax. Manufacturers may distribute, without charge, up to 1,250 litres of spirits in each year exempt from tax. Amendments are made to provide for the collection of the taxes on spirits.
Finally, the Act is amended with respect to microbrewers retaining their status as microbrewers while entering into agreements or arrangements with beer manufacturers that are not microbrewers in limited circumstances.
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby thecroweater » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:42 pm

Yeah they did that here on a federal level years ago. Obviously never read the golden goose story and pretty much shut down every single Australian distillery withing 12 months . Nothing worse for an economy than a high regressive tax.
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby goinbroke2 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:57 am

Worst of it is, after all the bullshit she did...she was re-elected! :evil:

Millions of $$ missing from what project again? No, no...it's all good, don't look behind the curtain.....
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby bitter » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:27 pm

From what I understand the new bill will add about $16 to a $27 bottle of craft distilled alcohol at 40%. It horrible.. guess the big boys putting pressure on the poor little guys/gals :( via the goverment as they are loosing sale with crappy products.
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby Bushman » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:00 pm

bitter wrote:From what I understand the new bill will add about $16 to a $27 bottle of craft distilled alcohol at 40%. It horrible.. guess the big boys putting pressure on the poor little guys/gals :( via the goverment as they are loosing sale with crappy products.

That is what happened in the State of Washington when they opened it up to grocery stores they added an additional tax that ran the drinks up to 33% total tax.
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby bitter » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:52 pm

The worst part is a large part of the 27$ is already taxes. They they are taxing taxes....

B
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby thecroweater » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:47 pm

Welcome to OZ life and capitalism at its greedy best, our sin tax is called excise, they can't tax a tax but somehow an excise is not considered a tax under law so the put on the excised and then crarge GST on that . No double dipping there much at 86 dollar a litre spirit tax then costs + profit then GST on top of all that but what the hell ppl stand for it
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby goinbroke2 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:10 pm

thecroweater wrote:Welcome to OZ life and capitalism at its greedy best, our sin tax is called excise, they can't tax a tax but somehow an excise is not considered a tax under law so the put on the excised and then crarge GST on that . No double dipping there much at 86 dollar a litre spirit tax then costs + profit then GST on top of all that but what the hell ppl stand for it


Hold on Crow, it's not capitalism, capitalism is the guy making it and selling it, the government piling on higher and higher taxes so they get more revenue to "distribute" is "big government" and there's only one side that wants bigger and bigger government.

Won't go on about politics as it's not allowed, but don't blame capitalism, any company should raise prices until sales drops to see what the market will bear. That's smart, not greedy, why give your product away at a lower price than it's worth?

In this case though, the capitalist found the market cap and then the government piled on top after the fact. Prohibition doesn't work, but making it so exceedingly hard to purchase something is not just preying on the rich,(those who can afford it regardless) it's social engineering, swaying the population to do what they want by monetary means. (in this case reduce alcohol consumption)

Captialism is what's made us so much richer than countries like north korea and the old USSR. Even china had to resort to capitalism to prevent dying a cold hard communist death.

(sorry for the rant...sore spot :roll: )
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby der wo » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:25 pm

"Nur die dümmsten Kälber
wählen ihren Metzger selber." (B.Brecht)
Translated: "Only the most stupid of all cows choose/vote for their own butcher."
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby goinbroke2 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:42 am

der wo wrote:"Nur die dümmsten Kälber
wählen ihren Metzger selber." (B.Brecht)
Translated: "Only the most stupid of all cows choose/vote for their own butcher."


You mean like Ontario did in their last provincial election? You are SO right!
Actually the butcher in this case IS a stupid cow! LOL!!!
Numerous 57L kegs, some propane, one 220v electric with stilldragon controller. Keggle for all-Grain, two pot still tops for whisky, a 3" reflux with deflag for vodka. Coming up, a 4" perf plate column. Life is short, make whisky and drag race!
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby MDH » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:57 pm

I believe British Columbia still has the highest taxes on alcohol in all of North America, with a 176% markup in total. They also have a "minimum pricing policy" which says no bottle of spirits may cost less than $23 by law -- On products made by enormous distilleries like Smirnoff of Bacardi, this allows an even more immense markup considering the BC government can act like Wal-Mart or another large company, buying in massive quantities. It means they can buy for $3 and sell for $23.

The problem is that these provincial monopolies are relics of the Prohibition era when alcohol was basically made just to get smashed on - there were no "Designer spirits" or craft distilleries pumping out fine brandies and single malts back then - at least, not here in North America. Everything was made cheaply and quickly. Taste was secondary. So the monopolies were seen as sufficient to control a market of a product that seemed to have no use outside of recreation with occasional serious health or social consequences, and they went unchallenged for decades. The result is that the tax they gained became entrenched in everything. The ship had sailed.

Obviously the nature of how many people choose to drink has changed dramatically. Now, we do have artisans making sipping spirits. We have great brandies made from apples, peaches, pears and so on. But the alcohol monopolies persist on as though we are still in the 1920's.

It's a sad state of affairs when you consider how fast other states, like Washington or Oregon, changed the regulations to allow craft distilling a decade or more ago. Canada has an unfortunate tendency to take its time with things.
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby craftsman » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:04 pm

Without being political, government representation is a selection process where the representation is elected. Change the taxation by "throwing the scoundrels out" and reverse the unfair sin taxes. That takes time too! But its still faster than "crying about it". Change craft distilling to be an "art" and provide protection as if it too were a painting!
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Re: R.I.P craft distilling in ontario

Postby Fiddleford » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:26 pm

My home town distillery had to relocate across the border in grand marieh (i cant spell for shit sometimes) i was going to inquire working there and lerning a trick or two maybe open my own distillery but they shut down and relocated this province is shit full of dunderheads
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