Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

Post by Red Rim »

Jimbo, I hear my voice in your words, I would climb on the soapbox, but there isn't room for two.

We have been taught cholesterol is bad, carbs are okay. Wrong. There is an Olympic level ultra runner I know that is out to prove how wrong this line of thinking is. He wins races using only high fat, low carb foods for 50 and 100 mile foot races through the mountains. Yes he is insane, but then again maybe not.

I would love to brew Monsanto free corn only and if I ever go commercial, it will be part of my sales pitch. Locally grown, Monsanto free, corn, local wood, local labor. ( probably exactly what Woodshed is selling).

As for fuel, back on topic. I run my fores and heads in my truck, it runs like hell for a few minutes and then runs like a race car the rest of the tank. Probably bad for the truck, but my last Chevy got 307,000 miles before my tranny went, I don't think I can hurt this one.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

Post by Bob Loblaw »

Jimbo wrote:The worst thing subsidized corn is doing to us is KILLING US. Subsidized corn has made processed corn oil, and HFCS so cheap it has become ubiquitous in ALL our foods. Its subsidized because Monsanto and ConAgra OWN the USDA. And grain is the base of our food pyramid because Monsanto and ConAgra OWN the USDA, it has no business in our food pyramid, its not a paleolithic food like vegetables, fruits, nuts and fish/meat. At the turn of the twentieth century diabetes rates were low, cardiovascular disease was almost unheard of and obesity rates were a tiny fraction of what we're suffering today. Lard and butter were the darlings of the home cook, the primary source of fat in the diet. This was before the processed vegetable oil industry skyrocketed, corn and canola oil and high fructose corn syrup hadn’t yet been invented and folks were thriving in good health on eggs fried in bacon fat, fruit pies with lard-crust and foods fried in grass-fed tallow. Now we're all obese and dying of diseases like diabetes and cardiovascular problems. But the big food companies have everyone convinced (manipulated), via our stupid ass government (puppets) that lard and butter are bad and you should eat processed oils. And starches and HFCS in all our food now spikes our insulin response, so the sugars and simple starches are stored as fat, and we march toward diabetes as our pancreas screams for mercy.

sorry, topic cranks me up.
All true. This article is about 12 years old now, but has some great history on how we got to the beliefs about our diets that people hold as truths today: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magaz ... t-lie.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Unfortunate that in terms of your pancreas screaming for mercy -- Alcohol is about the worst culprit out there.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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I'll trade veg oil and processed foods for hooch, all day long
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

Post by Jimbo »

Bob Loblaw wrote: Unfortunate that in terms of your pancreas screaming for mercy -- Alcohol is about the worst culprit out there.
Also true. However at the turn of the 20th century there was alcohol, and folks were not dying of these diseases like today. So I'll take a little of the bad, with more of the good. We all have our vices. Dont need the gooberment and big biz to fuck over the delicate balance of good and evil Im trying to maintain here.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

Post by Bob Loblaw »

Well, to be fair about the "good old days", at the turn of the century, life expectancy was 48 years. Sure, lots of things contributed to that - but heart disease was probably not so much uncommon as it was undiagnosed. I agree that most of the advice we are getting is wrong. But to say people were thriving, not sure about that. There are simply no comparable statistics.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

Post by Jimbo »

True, life expectancy has risen. Medicine and the Pharmacological industry have found ways to keep your arteries sorta clear, and your heart sorta pumping, and your other parts sorta functioning, because THAT IS HOW THEY MAKE MONEY. And the longer they keep you in that state the better for their quarterly earnings report.

Fat, sick and nearly dead, but not quite dead, is exactly where they want you. No money in healthy people or dead people.

Sorry gang for going so far off topic.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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"Fat, sick and nearly dead, but not quite dead, is exactly where they want you."

Not if they had any foresight. In Society, there is nothing more dangerous than a man with nothing to lose!
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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But if the man with nothing to lose can't walk 10 feet without crapping himself, he doesn't pose much of a threat. :D
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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Nothin more dangerous than a human brain...
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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bearriver wrote:Nothin more dangerous than a human brain...
Especially one that thinks for itself!!
I'm starting to see that most here are above average in thinking and use of grey matter. A cheap hobby this isn't, a great and worthwhile one absolutely.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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Jimbo wrote:The worst thing subsidized corn is doing to us is KILLING US. Subsidized corn has made processed corn oil, and HFCS so cheap it has become ubiquitous in ALL our foods. Its subsidized because Monsanto and ConAgra OWN the USDA. And grain is the base of our food pyramid because Monsanto and ConAgra OWN the USDA, it has no business in our food pyramid, its not a paleolithic food like vegetables, fruits, nuts and fish/meat. At the turn of the twentieth century diabetes rates were low, cardiovascular disease was almost unheard of and obesity rates were a tiny fraction of what we're suffering today. Lard and butter were the darlings of the home cook, the primary source of fat in the diet. This was before the processed vegetable oil industry skyrocketed, corn and canola oil and high fructose corn syrup hadn’t yet been invented and folks were thriving in good health on eggs fried in bacon fat, fruit pies with lard-crust and foods fried in grass-fed tallow. Now we're all obese and dying of diseases like diabetes and cardiovascular problems. But the big food companies have everyone convinced (manipulated), via our stupid ass government (puppets) that lard and butter are bad and you should eat processed oils. And starches and HFCS in all our food now spikes our insulin response, so the sugars and simple starches are stored as fat, and we march toward diabetes as our pancreas screams for mercy.

sorry, topic cranks me up.
An old thread but I just read it, so new to me.

My father,( an old Italian immigrant) would always lecture me about the evils of Monsanto- that was in the late 60's. +1 Jimbo!!
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

Post by Alchemist75 »

My 10 cents here is just this:
The only possible benefit of using ethanol as fuel is that it is a renewable resource as where petrol isn't. Now that being said it still isn't the best renewable fuel out there. The concept of the hydrogen engine probably offers greater promise in this regard as it has the ability to run on water effectively and the by product of the oxygen/hydrogen combustion is of course water...now I don't know how easy such an engine would be to build or how efficient it truly is but it seems one potentially better idea.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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Alchemist75 wrote:My 10 cents here is just this:
The only possible benefit of using ethanol as fuel is that it is a renewable resource as where petrol isn't. Now that being said it still isn't the best renewable fuel out there. The concept of the hydrogen engine probably offers greater promise in this regard as it has the ability to run on water effectively and the by product of the oxygen/hydrogen combustion is of course water...now I don't know how easy such an engine would be to build or how efficient it truly is but it seems one potentially better idea.
while a hydrogen engine would be awesome, they seem to be very complex or we would have one by now. they say transport and storage is the problem here, and possibly the manufacture of hydrogen too?

do you really think petrol is non-renewable? i'm of the opinion that the earth is a living organism and oil is just one of it's biological functions...much like a pimple on a person. the earth simply takes in carbon, and exudes oil as a byproduct of it's respiration.
Oil sands in Alberta are a naturally occurring "oil spill" . the shit literally oozes out of the ground. we are doing our best to clean up this oil spill, but the propagandists have the world believing it is a man made ecological disaster area.

it's all posturing for the almighty buck.

Like Jimbo's rant earlier in this thread, it's more about corruption and pocket lining at a level so much higher than we mortal men can even fathom....we'll get a hydrogen engine as soon as they can figure out how to make more money from that than from oil... and at the same time keep the working man enslaved to toe the social societies line.

oil is so entrenched in our economy that if it falters, apocalyptic chaos would ensue.

as far as affordable ethanol goes, a fuel plant is profitable at 1.60 per litre. that's prolly around 5 bucks USD currently. the benefit of using ethanol as an alternative fuel from an environmental standpoint is bullshit. it's farmed and transported with diesel fuel and manufactured with natural gas. matter cannot be created nor destroyed, the impact is identical, but keeping people working and paying taxes so that polite society doesn't devolve into chaos means some are farmers and some are truck drivers and some make ethanol.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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And tankfulky just about all of em drink ethanol. People fuel.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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It's abundant though not renewable in any reasonable time period, it took millions of years to form from decaying plant matter. The hydrogen engine was just an example of one potentially renewable fuel source. Hydrogen could be manufactured using hydro electric, geo thermal, solar or wind power so in theory it could be very efficient. I believe a few working prototypes have been made but either there are efficiency problems or profit mongers aren't seeing enough profit potential in it. It all boils down to making a buck at the end of the day though I tend to be of the quality over quantity mindset myself. Hopeless idealist.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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Alchemist75 wrote:The concept of the hydrogen engine probably offers greater promise in this regard as it has the ability to run on water effectively and the by product of the oxygen/hydrogen combustion is of course water...now I don't know how easy such an engine would be to build
There used to be miles of interweb info on engine conversion...how to run on the hydrolysis and burn oxygen/hydrogen as fuel...it died with the modern on-board computer...(did you know it's a felony to mess with one and change the government set fuel settings.) Anyway, I went to a tree-hugger convention some years back, when this could have become the next "big thing" and had a go round with an Earth-worshiper who informed me that water vapor is a GREEN HOUSE GAS ! I yelled at her "LIKE CLOUDS!" and doubled over laughing...I got kicked out.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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Nice! That's up there with the time I got kicked out of church camp when I was 13. I don't know if hydrogen engines will ever really be a thing but they are one potential idea for a renewable fuel source. Honestly the battery powered electric cars are a good step in the right direction. I'd not be suprised if they eventually figured out some means of creating fusion powered engines....100's of years after I'm dead but hey, human kind has a way of manifesting anything it can dream up. Just takes time, tools and a few physicists....maybe a sci-fi author or two.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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Alchemist75 wrote:Nice! That's up there with the time I got kicked out of church camp when I was 13. I don't know if hydrogen engines will ever really be a thing but they are one potential idea for a renewable fuel source. Honestly the battery powered electric cars are a good step in the right direction. I'd not be suprised if they eventually figured out some means of creating fusion powered engines....100's of years after I'm dead but hey, human kind has a way of manifesting anything it can dream up. Just takes time, tools and a few physicists....maybe a sci-fi author or two.
i may have sounded like an oil monger, but hey, i'm Albertan. It makes the world go around here! The Mr. Fusion engine may not be so far off the way technology advances these days. I think we would get there a lot faster if they spent the profits of the oil usage to drive the alternative energy ideas instead of pissing it away on whatever other coked up ideas they waste money on.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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Electric is pretty good for cars because fusion in your engine is sorta like cooking a still on gas without a condenser. With electric it’s just a battery and those can be recharged with fusion generated electricity / solar elec / hydroelectric / or feckin gerbils.

Now, I dare you to even try to imagine a cute little gerbil without thinking of Richard Gere.

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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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kiwi Bruce wrote:I had a go round with an Earth-worshiper who informed me that water vapor is a GREEN HOUSE GAS ! I yelled at her "LIKE CLOUDS!" and doubled over laughing...I got kicked out.
I think I used her wrong pronoun...I called her "Miss" instead of "Yo Bitch" which of course is her correct pronoun ! :lol:
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

Post by kiwi Bruce »

As a quick aside...The question was "Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?"
Commercial Ethanol that's used in fuel comes from ethane a gas, a byproduct of the petroleum industry, it's a waste product...it costs to store the stuff, so most of it was just burned off with the methane. However it costs only 0.002 cents a gal to convert to fuel alcohol, the Government subsidy is a nickel a gal (5cents) it does help reduce NOX emissions, but the big factor here is using a waste product...that had been a pollutant...to help clean up pollution, and make a modest profit at the same time...WIN WIN WIN...not to bad in my book.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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kiwi Bruce wrote:As a quick aside...The question was "Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?"
Commercial Ethanol that's used in fuel comes from ethane a gas, a byproduct of the petroleum industry, it's a waste product...it costs to store the stuff, so most of it was just burned off with the methane. However it costs only 0.002 cents a gal to convert to fuel alcohol, the Government subsidy is a nickel a gal (5cents) it does help reduce NOX emissions, but the big factor here is using a waste product...that had been a pollutant...to help clean up pollution, and make a modest profit at the same time...WIN WIN WIN...not to bad in my book.
that's interesting. i never knew about that process, i thought it was from corn and wheat. the guy close to me that sells at 1.60 a itr makes from wheat.
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Does this all still apply in 2021?

Post by usoldier »

I'm hoping this is where I can ask the question, does the community still agree with most of the points and data in this thread?
I have been all over the parent topic(s) to this (Alcohol as Fuel) and I keep reading the same information (including at the beginning of this thread I'm tacking onto). That, you can buy ethanol cheaper than you can make it-
cob wrote: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:24 pm
Propaniac wrote:Dang, I wasn't aware of all that. I guess that's the end of that. Just for the heck of it though, what's the cheapest source of sugar? Also, if you use corn, do you also have to use sugar, or just corn. I apologize if these are stupid questions, but I tried to search and wasn't seeing much. The way you search for stuff on this forum is pretty confusing though.
are you actualy wanting to make ethanol for fuel? or other reasons?
the commodities closing price for ethanol yesterday was $2.12 USD.
much cheaper to buy it for fuel.
The majority of this original thread is from 2014, so I would not be surprised if things had changed since then. When I try to go find "bulk ethanol" or anything close to that, I come up with results that are easily in the $25-$50 range. What am I trying to do? Well, mostly save money on some ventless fireplaces that are rather fuel hungry. The tabletop kind that look nice and are really more for aesthetics than they are for putting off heat (although they put off some decent heat too for their size, imo). This is the absolute best deal I can find online after literally weeks of searching. That is coming out to $22.50/gal. Not exactly something I want to light every evening to have going while I watch a movie with my wife, knowing it's burning at 7.5x the current price at the pump for a little ambiance!
So especially for
the commodities closing price for ethanol yesterday was $2.12 USD.
much cheaper to buy it for fuel.
I say WHERE, because I have looked far and wide, and cannot find this mythical $2.12 a gallon ethanol no matter if I buy it by the 55 gallon drum or the pint sized bottle that comes in a package of 24. This is what got me thinking of making my own, or at least started to until I kept reading how much cost was involved (I saw $10/gal estimated somewhere here on HD for 95% not including still, but can't find the post at the moment).
I'd love some help on this. Pointers, look over here dumbass, opinion, etc. Thank you anyone who took the time to read my post.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

Post by HDNB »

it still ranges from a 1.50-1.90 CDN for a liter of 200proof here in western Canada. of course, you have to be licensed to buy it for that.
look for bulk ethanol fuel plants.

I doubt you could make it for that unless you build a plant of the same scale.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

Post by usoldier »

Thanks for the tip HDNB. I'm sure our regulations are just as stringent here, so good luck to me, but I will most certainly look for what you mentioned.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

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usoldier wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:01 am I'm hoping this is where I can ask the question, does the community still agree with most of the points and data in this thread?
I have been all over the parent topic(s) to this (Alcohol as Fuel) and I keep reading the same information (including at the beginning of this thread I'm tacking onto). That, you can buy ethanol cheaper than you can make it-
cob wrote: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:24 pm
Propaniac wrote:Dang, I wasn't aware of all that. I guess that's the end of that. Just for the heck of it though, what's the cheapest source of sugar? Also, if you use corn, do you also have to use sugar, or just corn. I apologize if these are stupid questions, but I tried to search and wasn't seeing much. The way you search for stuff on this forum is pretty confusing though.
are you actualy wanting to make ethanol for fuel? or other reasons?
the commodities closing price for ethanol yesterday was $2.12 USD.
much cheaper to buy it for fuel.
The majority of this original thread is from 2014, so I would not be surprised if things had changed since then. When I try to go find "bulk ethanol" or anything close to that, I come up with results that are easily in the $25-$50 range. What am I trying to do? Well, mostly save money on some ventless fireplaces that are rather fuel hungry. The tabletop kind that look nice and are really more for aesthetics than they are for putting off heat (although they put off some decent heat too for their size, imo). This is the absolute best deal I can find online after literally weeks of searching. That is coming out to $22.50/gal. Not exactly something I want to light every evening to have going while I watch a movie with my wife, knowing it's burning at 7.5x the current price at the pump for a little ambiance!
So especially for
the commodities closing price for ethanol yesterday was $2.12 USD.
much cheaper to buy it for fuel.
I say WHERE, because I have looked far and wide, and cannot find this mythical $2.12 a gallon ethanol no matter if I buy it by the 55 gallon drum or the pint sized bottle that comes in a package of 24. This is what got me thinking of making my own, or at least started to until I kept reading how much cost was involved (I saw $10/gal estimated somewhere here on HD for 95% not including still, but can't find the post at the moment).
I'd love some help on this. Pointers, look over here dumbass, opinion, etc. Thank you anyone who took the time to read my post.
There aren't very many ways to make it with little cost, the ones there are usually take a lot of time. If you can get ingredients for fee you can make it pretty darn cheap. I get free apples so I can produce apple brandy at a very low price but it takes a lot of time to pick, process, ferment and distill. I would also think if you are using the alcohol for a fireplace it wouldn't have to be as pure as if using for a car.
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Re: Does this all still apply in 2021?

Post by cob »

usoldier wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:01 am
the commodities closing price for ethanol yesterday was $2.12 USD.
much cheaper to buy it for fuel.
I say WHERE, because I have looked far and wide, and cannot find this mythical $2.12 a gallon ethanol no matter if I buy it by the 55 gallon drum or the pint sized bottle that comes in a package of 24. This is what got me thinking of making my own, or at least started to until I kept reading how much cost was involved (I saw $10/gal estimated somewhere here on HD for 95% not including still, but can't find the post at the moment).
I'd love some help on this. Pointers, look over here dumbass, opinion, etc. Thank you anyone who took the time to read my post.
As you noted that price is from 2014

commodities price yesterday $2.22 only up a dime in 8 years even during covid.

now in order to get that price you need to buy 100 train tankers at a time.

the entity that purchases like that is likely the same that fills the gallon cans

that lowes sells for $20
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

Post by stevea »

The CBOT contract unit is 29000 gallons - or one tanker car (back to $2.14/gal today, so ~$62k/contract) So yeah you really could buy a contract and pay for delivery & storage and ... I can buy E85 fuel locally for $3.05, so not awful markup.

Back on the original topic. Commodity sugar is $0.19/lb (56 ton contract size), and was ~$0.10/lb last year. It takes 12lb of sugar to create 1gal of 90%. So $2.28 for the feedstock.

Commodity corn (1 contract = 5000 bushel, 280k lb, 140ton) is $6.03/bu or $0.1077/lb today. **NOTE** That is a WAY HIGH price. Corn was ~$4/bu withing the past year. The big guys can make a gallon of 90% from 18.33 lb of corn - so $1.97 in feedstock at the inflation-fueled price. But ~the corn feedstock more typically would be around ~$1.40/gal. FWIW I can buy corn by the ton for ~10% over commodity price from a local silo.

Of course you'd need to add nutrients to sugar, and grind and mash the heck out of corn ... big energy costs at small scale.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

I’m gonna voice a very selfish opinion about corn fuel… the stuff is fucking amazing for high performance cars.

My other hobby is tinkering with my 800hp turbo sports car. I used to run high octane race gas, which is INSANELY expensive. I switched over to an E85 fuel system and make huge power for a fuel that’s cheaper than regular unleaded. You burn it 30% faster, but the trade off is worth it. Very high octane fuel, and smells like sweet corn coming out the tailpipe. It’s honestly changed the game in the high performance car world.
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Re: Does it really cost this much to make ethanol?

Post by drmiller100 »

stevea wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:33 am The CBOT contract unit is 29000 gallons - or one tanker car (back to $2.14/gal today, so ~$62k/contract) So yeah you really could buy a contract and pay for delivery & storage and ... I can buy E85 fuel locally for $3.05, so not awful markup.

Back on the original topic. Commodity sugar is $0.19/lb (56 ton contract size), and was ~$0.10/lb last year. It takes 12lb of sugar to create 1gal of 90%. So $2.28 for the feedstock.

Commodity corn (1 contract = 5000 bushel, 280k lb, 140ton) is $6.03/bu or $0.1077/lb today. **NOTE** That is a WAY HIGH price. Corn was ~$4/bu withing the past year. The big guys can make a gallon of 90% from 18.33 lb of corn - so $1.97 in feedstock at the inflation-fueled price. But ~the corn feedstock more typically would be around ~$1.40/gal. FWIW I can buy corn by the ton for ~10% over commodity price from a local silo.

Of course you'd need to add nutrients to sugar, and grind and mash the heck out of corn ... big energy costs at small scale.
I'm not very smart. Etoh is 6 pounds to the gallon. Fermentation turns half the sugar weight to etoh, the other half to co2.
Corn is about 1/3 protein which yeast won't eat. But the protein is very valuable for feedstock especially dairies.

My dream is to build systems the dairies make etoh and feed wet distillers grain and tasty waste water to cows.
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
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