The Alcohol Cure

Alcohol is an inexpensive, clean and renewable fuel source.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
Butch50
Swill Maker
Posts: 431
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:20 am
Location: Repbulic of Texas!

The Alcohol Cure

Post by Butch50 » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:38 pm

Here is a link to an interesting article. The author believes that the President should mandate that all future model cars should be flexible fuel capable, and that this $100 addition to all cars would drive the market for more alcohol fuel. I agree with him, it would be a smart and cheap move.

I would have cut and pasted the entire article instead of just giving you the link, but not sure how copyright works for that on a forum.

It is worth a minute to read this.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NG ... GFkYTk0OGM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Banjos and Whisky, Down On The River Bank

As-Ol-Joe
Swill Maker
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:50 am
Location: Ozark Mountains

Post by As-Ol-Joe » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:57 pm

I agree 100%. I drive 75 miles one way to work and the first time they come out with an alternative fueled vehicle that doesn't cost $100,000, I will be the 1st in line.

Alcohol is a viable alternative as well as hydrogen. Getting the oil companies and the auto makers to get on board is the problem.

The technology is out there. We have all heard about people that have improved gas mileage for years, but the oil companies but the technology and shelve it.

I knew an engineer in the 70's that that could get 30 miles per gallon out an 8 cylinder.
You WILL get addicted to this forum.

The Parent site is REQUIRED READING!!!

wineo
Distiller
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:33 pm

Post by wineo » Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:16 pm

They can make a tire that will outlast you car.They can make a car that gets great mileage,but when someone comes up with one of these things,Someone pays them millions of dollars for it,never to be seen again.If you build something that last for 40 years,once everyone has one,you will go out of buisness.It seems that we will have to change the way we do things,if we want to overcome these problems.Corperate america not going to change.

HookLine
retired
Posts: 5628
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 8:38 am
Location: OzLand

Post by HookLine » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:53 pm

As-Ol-Joe wrote:Alcohol is a viable alternative as well as hydrogen.
Neither alcohol nor hydrogen are currently viable on the scale needed to do a straight swap with hydrocarbon based fuels. Not even close. Producing that amount of alcohol would use up pretty well all the agricultural land we have. And hydrogen is difficult to transport and store, and very expensive to make in the first instance.

There is some interesting and promising research going on into both of them, such as engineering microbes to make hydrogen, or use cellulose to make ethanol, but don't bet your house (or car or lifestyle) on them.

Truth is, we got some serious problems coming up in about 15-25 years, unless there are some critical technological breakthroughs. :shock:
Be safe.
Be discreet.
And have fun.

User avatar
Husker
Admin
Posts: 5031
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:04 pm

Post by Husker » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:47 pm

Nukes baby.

H.

wineo
Distiller
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:33 pm

Post by wineo » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:49 pm

Husker,you nailed it!

mtnwalker2
Swill Maker
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:35 pm
Location: Smokey Mountain tops, WNC

Post by mtnwalker2 » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:10 pm

Actually Hydrogen is the cheapest and most plentiful fuel in the world. In 1971 I contacted a professor of physics at Cornell, (that was my field also) but I had the concept of useing geothermal power like so much of CA power, but in Iceland where it would be dirt cheap, and no worries about sulfide gases and the expensive scrubbers. We narrowed it down to start to finish costs of a tad over half a cent per gallon, mass produced over a 10 year payback plan. And that didn't include income from the O2 which was a side product. Shipped into ports where pipelines would carry it to power plants and other major users. Perfect fuel, only giveing off water vapor. Ran into so much red tape for shipping, pipeing etc. concept was abondoned. But an electric plant or big energy use plant could have been built way out in the boonies. This is still the most important concept of future fuel ever conceived. If Iceland would jump on it, it could be the new Sadia Arabia in wealth. No carbon emmissions.
> "You are what you repeatedly do. Excellence is not an event - it is a
>habit" Aristotle

defcon4
Swill Maker
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:09 pm
Location: Blue rock hurtling 'round the Sun

Post by defcon4 » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:01 pm

I don't want to get into the political/economics side of this argument but all I will say (as in, this is my only post in this thread, you can take this information for what it's worth and learn the facts for yourself as arguing never gets anywhere, I won't look at this thread again but...) don't listen to the propaganda that tells us the oil companies are hiding technology from us. If people want it and ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR IT (no matter what the cost), it is in their best interest to provide that product to the consumers. In America's perfectly competitive market system, if one company doesn't provide a product a consumer is willing to pay for, another company will come along and provide that product. If you believe that the oil companies have formed some sort of cartel and are preventing this competitive product from entering the market, get some evidence and go the Dept. of Justice or the FTC, the case will be all over CNN before you know it. Problem is, most people who blame cartel operation amongst oil companies in America can't come up with any solid evidence (not even internal whistle-blowers). OPEC only operates outside the US and is closely watched by the feds.
I believe we should switch to E85 TODAY but what people don't realize is that it will cost the same per gallon and will get a slightly lower mileage per gallon. E85 looks cheaper on paper right now but as you try to produce more and more of any product, the cost of producing that product INCREASES (on a per unit basis, aka marginal cost) even if an economy of scale is realized/achieved.
If the gov't were to "mandate" that every company must make their cars a certain way (making them flex-fuel), it would be an intrusion of the public (gov't power) into the private market system and would screw-up the market equilibrium yet again (and cause things like the stock market to take a 5 year dive, increase the price you pay for products at stores, reduce output, etc.). The only time the gov't should interfere in the economy is to enforce a free market system by preventing market failure situations (monopolies, cartels/trusts, tying contracts, bid rigging, etc.). If the gov't becomes too heavily involved in forcing the private market around, both systems will crumble (this has been historically proven by the United Soviet Socialist Republic, they messed around with their previously private market economy, and it all crumbled). Socialist economies don't work people.

Most car companies have already made their vehicles flex-fuel. General Motors entire line is flex-fuel, Ford's consumer line is flex-fuel, etc. They don't cost $100,000, so go get in line, you can buy a FFV vehicle for the same price you used to pay for new cars (around $20,000).

Don't fall into the hype that's being passed around about "Corporate America" being so evil and manipulative. Business and their profits are driven by CONSUMERS, if you don't like it, don't buy it, if you like it, buy it. The people who complain about gas being soo evil and bad that it's a crisis still buy gasoline. If you're willing the pay the same price for e85 as you are paying for gasoline and get a slightly lower gas mileage but better performance, then buy it (it is available in many west coast and midwestern markets because that is were more consumers willing to pay for it are right now).

FYI:
-I do not own a drop of stock in the U.S. economy because of the upcoming elections. If a certain someone becomes president, I fear the economy will be screwed around with so much (aka communism/socialism) that I won't make a normal rate of return (I suggest investing in the German market utilities sector short term right now, awesome returns 18-20% for a few years is my analysis!)

-I am a 4.0 business student with a minor in business law

-I do not work for any oil company or any corporate side of business, I'm a happy package chucker for UPS (well not this time of year, why can't people just visit their relatives and bring their own presents to their destinations, must we UPSers haul EVERY gift around, maybe Santa wears brown and drives a package car :lol:
Towering in gallant fame,
Scotland my mountain hame,
High may your proud
standard gloriously wave,
Land of my high endeavour,
Land of the shining rivers,
Land of my heart for ever,
Scotland the brave!

User avatar
Tater
Admin
Posts: 8929
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:19 am
Location: occupied south

Post by Tater » Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:53 am

defcon4 wrote:I don't want to get into the political/economics side of this argument but all I will say (as in, this is my only post in this thread, you can take this information for what it's worth and learn the facts for yourself as arguing never gets anywhere, I won't look at this thread again but...) don't listen to the propaganda that tells us the oil companies are hiding technology from us. If people want it and ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR IT (no matter what the cost), it is in their best interest to provide that product to the consumers. In America's perfectly competitive market system, if one company doesn't provide a product a consumer is willing to pay for, another company will come along and provide that product. If you believe that the oil companies have formed some sort of cartel and are preventing this competitive product from entering the market, get some evidence and go the Dept. of Justice or the FTC, the case will be all over CNN before you know it. Problem is, most people who blame cartel operation amongst oil companies in America can't come up with any solid evidence (not even internal whistle-blowers). OPEC only operates outside the US and is closely watched by the feds.
I believe we should switch to E85 TODAY but what people don't realize is that it will cost the same per gallon and will get a slightly lower mileage per gallon. E85 looks cheaper on paper right now but as you try to produce more and more of any product, the cost of producing that product INCREASES (on a per unit basis, aka marginal cost) even if an economy of scale is realized/achieved.
If the gov't were to "mandate" that every company must make their cars a certain way (making them flex-fuel), it would be an intrusion of the public (gov't power) into the private market system and would screw-up the market equilibrium yet again (and cause things like the stock market to take a 5 year dive, increase the price you pay for products at stores, reduce output, etc.). The only time the gov't should interfere in the economy is to enforce a free market system by preventing market failure situations (monopolies, cartels/trusts, tying contracts, bid rigging, etc.). If the gov't becomes too heavily involved in forcing the private market around, both systems will crumble (this has been historically proven by the United Soviet Socialist Republic, they messed around with their previously private market economy, and it all crumbled). Socialist economies don't work people.

Most car companies have already made their vehicles flex-fuel. General Motors entire line is flex-fuel, Ford's consumer line is flex-fuel, etc. They don't cost $100,000, so go get in line, you can buy a FFV vehicle for the same price you used to pay for new cars (around $20,000).

Don't fall into the hype that's being passed around about "Corporate America" being so evil and manipulative. Business and their profits are driven by CONSUMERS, if you don't like it, don't buy it, if you like it, buy it. The people who complain about gas being soo evil and bad that it's a crisis still buy gasoline. If you're willing the pay the same price for e85 as you are paying for gasoline and get a slightly lower gas mileage but better performance, then buy it (it is available in many west coast and midwestern markets because that is were more consumers willing to pay for it are right now).

FYI:
-I do not own a drop of stock in the U.S. economy because of the upcoming elections. If a certain someone becomes president, I fear the economy will be screwed around with so much (aka communism/socialism) that I won't make a normal rate of return (I suggest investing in the German market utilities sector short term right now, awesome returns 18-20% for a few years is my analysis!)

-I am a 4.0 business student with a minor in business law

-I do not work for any oil company or any corporate side of business, I'm a happy package chucker for UPS (well not this time of year, why can't people just visit their relatives and bring their own presents to their destinations, must we UPSers haul EVERY gift around, maybe Santa wears brown and drives a package car :lol:
:) yep I was young once to From what Ive seen In my short 52 years is world is driven by greed :) example - I met this guy awhile back who said he had invented a muffler for a gas lawn mower that made it so quite that was hard to hear from 10 ft away.The elect lawn mower makers bought the muffler patent.Now this was told to me by a customer who I had done service for before and was working man like me.To someone who looked like they hit the lotto and said that was why.
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper

As-Ol-Joe
Swill Maker
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:50 am
Location: Ozark Mountains

Post by As-Ol-Joe » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:06 am

E85 is a joke. The majority of ethanol mixed with gasoline comes from crude oil.

The hybirds that the car companies are putting out are disappointing.. The people that I know that have them are not getting the advertised gas mileage. The electric part is only of value if your stay in the city, under 35mph.

For a few hundred dollars you can convert any diesel car to run off of used cooking oil.

Bio-diesel as been around for years, it stayed under wraps until Willie Nelson started promoting it.

Back in the 70's during the oil embargo, alternative fuels source started to emerge, when the OPEC got wind of them the oil embargo was over. Better to make $10 a barrel than no $$ a barrel.

I believe the oil companies and auto maker are in cahoots. If you paid me a few millions dollars for my patent, I would keep quite about what I discovered.
You WILL get addicted to this forum.

The Parent site is REQUIRED READING!!!

wineo
Distiller
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:33 pm

Post by wineo » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:42 am

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Butch50
Swill Maker
Posts: 431
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:20 am
Location: Repbulic of Texas!

Post by Butch50 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:08 am

If E85 reduces our dependence on OPEC, then we should be tooling up for it as fast as we can. If the President can put a mandate that all cars were flexible fuel capable, and it truly only costs $100 per car - then we are fools to not be pressuring him to do it. That is NOT government interference, that is govt responding to the will of the people.

Extant infrastructure is the biggest hold back to making changes. We have gasoline infrastructure thoroughly embedded in our country. Making radical changes is therefore very difficult - but E85 is a small incremental change that utilizes the infrastructure that we already have in place, therefore it will be a quicker and cheaper transition. Going to hydrogen, even though it may be a better fuel, would require massive infrastructure changes which would be extraordinarly expensive, so that just isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

OPEC will maintain oil as high as they possibly can, yet keep it just low enough that alternative fuels don't become economically viable and threathen their market share - that is economics 101. We have to jump start around that economic impasse that they have created in order to get moving, then when a critical mass of consumers exist the free market will take off and we can say good by to our enemy; foreign oil.
Banjos and Whisky, Down On The River Bank

As-Ol-Joe
Swill Maker
Posts: 482
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:50 am
Location: Ozark Mountains

Post by As-Ol-Joe » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:36 am

The sooner we stop paying ransom for oil to the people that keep trying to wipe out the infidels, the happier I will be.

Regardless of the technology that we wind up using, oil will run out sooner or later and we need to have something in place.
You WILL get addicted to this forum.

The Parent site is REQUIRED READING!!!

SUVdriver
Novice
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:23 pm

Re: The Alcohol Cure

Post by SUVdriver » Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:15 pm

defcon4 wrote:I don't want to get into the political/economics side of this argument but all I will say (as in, this is my only post in this thread, you can take this information for what it's worth and learn the facts for yourself as arguing never gets anywhere, I won't look at this thread again but...) don't listen to the propaganda that tells us the oil companies are hiding technology from us. If people want it and ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR IT (no matter what the cost), it is in their best interest to provide that product to the consumers. In America's perfectly competitive market system, if one company doesn't provide a product a consumer is willing to pay for, another company will come along and provide that product. If you believe that the oil companies have formed some sort of cartel and are preventing this competitive product from entering the market, get some evidence and go the Dept. of Justice or the FTC, the case will be all over CNN before you know it. Problem is, most people who blame cartel operation amongst oil companies in America can't come up with any solid evidence (not even internal whistle-blowers). OPEC only operates outside the US and is closely watched by the feds.
I believe we should switch to E85 TODAY but what people don't realize is that it will cost the same per gallon and will get a slightly lower mileage per gallon. E85 looks cheaper on paper right now but as you try to produce more and more of any product, the cost of producing that product INCREASES (on a per unit basis, aka marginal cost) even if an economy of scale is realized/achieved.
If the gov't were to "mandate" that every company must make their cars a certain way (making them flex-fuel), it would be an intrusion of the public (gov't power) into the private market system and would screw-up the market equilibrium yet again (and cause things like the stock market to take a 5 year dive, increase the price you pay for products at stores, reduce output, etc.). The only time the gov't should interfere in the economy is to enforce a free market system by preventing market failure situations (monopolies, cartels/trusts, tying contracts, bid rigging, etc.). If the gov't becomes too heavily involved in forcing the private market around, both systems will crumble (this has been historically proven by the United Soviet Socialist Republic, they messed around with their previously private market economy, and it all crumbled). Socialist economies don't work people.

Most car companies have already made their vehicles flex-fuel. General Motors entire line is flex-fuel, Ford's consumer line is flex-fuel, etc. They don't cost $100,000, so go get in line, you can buy a FFV vehicle for the same price you used to pay for new cars (around $20,000).

Don't fall into the hype that's being passed around about "Corporate America" being so evil and manipulative. Business and their profits are driven by CONSUMERS, if you don't like it, don't buy it, if you like it, buy it. The people who complain about gas being soo evil and bad that it's a crisis still buy gasoline. If you're willing the pay the same price for e85 as you are paying for gasoline and get a slightly lower gas mileage but better performance, then buy it (it is available in many west coast and midwestern markets because that is were more consumers willing to pay for it are right now).

FYI:
-I do not own a drop of stock in the U.S. economy because of the upcoming elections. If a certain someone becomes president, I fear the economy will be screwed around with so much (aka communism/socialism) that I won't make a normal rate of return (I suggest investing in the German market utilities sector short term right now, awesome returns 18-20% for a few years is my analysis!)

-I am a 4.0 business student with a minor in business law

-I do not work for any oil company or any corporate side of business, I'm a happy package chucker for UPS (well not this time of year, why can't people just visit their relatives and bring their own presents to their destinations, must we UPSers haul EVERY gift around, maybe Santa wears brown and drives a package car :lol:
appoint me. Most of us here are trying to tell big oil and the like to get out of our lives. but guys like him don't bother to open their eyes. Thats exactly why I'm building my own Charles 803 and trying to learn as much as I can from good people like the ones I've found here. There's always more to learn and the experiences posted on this site have helped me tremendously. Thank you

defcon4 needs a serious relity check. I don't claim to be a smart man in any way but wherever this guy is going to college he needs to get his money back. Mr Henry Ford made his automobile to run off of local farm-made ETHANOL then came prohibition. Guess where that came from.... a $4 million dollar payoff by none other than Mr Rockefeller himself. Lets see, Where did he mke his cash?.....OIL. He had a bunch of this waste stuff called gasoline and instead of being a logical/moral person and finding a reasonable way of disposing it, he paid off the government and all on his own made the country completely dependent on oil. So why does defcon think large companies are good guys? cause he watches the news and believes it, not to mention the politicians who have been bought by large corporations. its people like these who will complain the most come July when gas is expected to reach $6.00 a gallon. I also don't like to hear people who gripe about food prices because of ethanol when its the price of DIESEL FUEL which governs the price of products across the board. And Biodiesel won't answer that problem. The trucks that haul our precious things we don't need, yet MUST have, won't even run on the stuff cause Big oil has already paid off the government by passing legislation which actually hinders the fuel effeciency and requires refluxing systems of those trucks so they cant use it. They conveniently label it emission standards by the way. A top of the line Freighliner with a Cummins, CAT, Detroit, whatever motor you put in it, won't get better than 8 mpg! do the math on that one. 300 gallon tank at $5 per gallon($1,500) and it only gets you 2400 miles. The average driver runs 3-5000 miles per WEEK. Thats why food prices have gone up, not cause of corn.

I truly apologize for ranting folks, people with wool-covered views like defcon4 just plain disappoint me.I don't know about him but I'm here to gain knowledge on better ways to get uncle sam and uncle oil out of my gas tank. I'm the type of person who knows there will ALWAYS be more to learn. I've just been fortunate to find a group of people here that are willing to teach me something. Members-Thank you very much for that opportunity.

rad14701
Master Distiller
Posts: 20866
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: New York, USA

Re: The Alcohol Cure

Post by rad14701 » Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:20 am

I have to agree that that rant by defcon4 was bit off the wall... The government and big corporations ARE to blame for our current circumstances, but I'll leave my political rant at that... Anyone who thinks they can blame the use of using corn to produce ethanol as being the reason for current inflation rates simply has no real understanding of how this world turns... Farmers can plant more corn... There is extra land to do that on and there is enough corn seed to plant...

How can everyone help...??? The next time someone wants to buy up a piece of farm land to turn into a housing development, put a bullet in their head... Once farm land is converted to suburbia it can never return to being farm land...

Now, as far as using corn for ethanol is concerned... The byproducts of ethanol production can be used to feed cattle, offsetting the need to feed them raw corn, and the cows actually gain more nutrients from that byproduct than from corn anyway... Any remaining liquids can be converted into fertilizer which can be put back on the land the corn was harvested from, as a natural fertilizer, - yet another benefit...

It is only the oil industry - government connection, and lobbyists, that make ethanol production sound like a bad idea... Do the research... Read between the lines... Never believe a single source... I've been warning people that we were going to be right where we are now for over five years but nobody bothered to listen... Now they're admitting that I was right and now they give my opinions more weight in making decisions... The sad part is that some of these businesses will not survive because they failed to act soon enough...

trthskr4
Distiller
Posts: 1324
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:55 pm
Location: South

Re: The Alcohol Cure

Post by trthskr4 » Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:44 am

Yup, plenty of room for corn. but after every acre's got corn on it where you gonna plant the wheat, if it's got corn on it you can't plant wheat there it won't come off in time to plant the next corn crop. Where you gonna put soybeans? Everything got soybeans in it now, where you gonna plant rice, etc. etc. I think the way to go is the Brazilian way, sugarcane for ethanol. Don't use the main staples of food for running your car, use sugarbeets or sugarcane. That's why the inflation in food costs right now, every body's gone to planting corn to ride that gravy train as long as it's running. I give it till the end of next summer and the corn demand will go down along with prices when everyone figures out it's not the brightest way to go ethanol. I've got a Charles 803 almost ready to go, it ain't worth it by my calculations cost wise. If you're aiming to get off of oil though that's a different story, can't do it totally but every barrel you cut out will help. It's all about supply and demand, wait maybe it's just commodities traders, could be partly a media problem cause where do the traders get their news from to base their analysis on. I think all this was coming by design and on purpose, from where I won't say, but it's not just a matter of circumstance.
15 gallon pot still, 2"x18" column with liebeg condensor on propane.
Modified Charles 803 w/ 50gal boiler, never ran so far.

Post Reply