Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

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cornfarmer
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Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by cornfarmer »

Okay, time for my fist ever post... be kind. I've recently started toying with the idea of making my own ethanol fuel since I'm a corn farmer in Iowa(50k+ bushels). I was hoping you guys could give me your input on my ideas and your ideal setup if you were looking to get a bigger (1000+ gallon) scale fuel setup.

Okay, to start off with a little info. I have tons of free time and if I have to do it in a 100 batches that wouldn't be optimal but I could make it work. I want to do it as cheaply as possible, I don't mind making an initial investment as long as it'll pay in the long run. I have tons of space so that isn't an issue. I'll be feeding my leftover dried distillers grains to my chicken herd so efficiency in alcohol content per batch isn't as high up on the priority list, once I get really start producing DDGs in mass I could get cattle or hogs to eat it up.

So my ideas: I found the Charels 803 still plans online and thought I could build several and do a massive continual runs by adding wort to the boiler using a one way valve saving me time doing batch runs. Is there a better or cheaper option for a homemade reflux still? I've got a grinder and can make up to 4 tons of ground corn so that isn't a bottle neck for my operation. Then I'm thinking I would make a mash with a bushel of corn in each 55 gallon drum adding 20 gallons boiling water to make a hot slurry. Then mix in Alpha amylase at 150 and stirring each drum for 1.5 hrs until I add the yeast when the temp drops and add some more room temp liquid to get the proper volume for a mash, then cap it with a bubbler. (basically using the method seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1PN0sW_2po" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow) After fermentation what alcohol content could I expect?

I've have access to basically unlimited firewood so I would like to use that to power all of my energy needs. I do have access to propane in bulk also but I've got the time to cut the wood so I'd be fun to say I made the ethanol that much cheaper using it. I'm envisioning multiple steel 55 gallon drums (each boiler going to its own Charles 803 still) ontop of each other, the one on the bottom is half cut out with the fire inside of it and the 2nd sitting ontop. I've made a similar one in the past to boil water in and thought it worked well. I know you're supposed to use copper or stainless steel but I won't be drinking the alcohol so that shouldn't be a problem right?

Would I be able to make alcohol high enough proof with the Charles 803 still alone or would I need a 3a molecular sieves to get it to 200 proof. I would be adding the required denaturing agents to my fuel would that be enough? Has anyone experimented with pure distilled ethanol fueling their cars and the proof they used successfully?

Anyway, hope that makes sense. Thanks in advance for any help/advice with my big idea here. And just for the record I'm going to be applying for the federal fuel permit once I get the details worked out and ready to start making fuel.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by still_stirrin »

Wow man.

That's way bigger than hobby scale. You're gonna need a license. And a lot of capital. Business plans would be needed to secure funding from the bank or investors.

And to "jerry-rig" steel drums and piping together just doesn't sound safe. When producing that much alcohol, you absolutely must have a safe plant, or you could see your whole farm go up in flames. And speaking of flames, a plant of that size would most probably be electric, or steam powered at the least.

To produce fuel alcohol and sell it, you would need to process it to get to pure ethanol. Azeotropic alcohol just isn't clean enough to sell. And that last little bit of purity comes with a price.

I would suggest contacting an ethanol plant contractor in you area (I know there's a few there) and discuss requirements, budget, schedule, and design options. Then, you'll need to build your business plan and discuss this with your banker.

In the end, you may want to simply raise, harvest, and sell your corn and let the corporations produce the fuel. Especially when the price of crude oil is as low as it is now.

Ethanol plants are taking a beating right now, especially startup plants. I think windpower would be more promising....almost. It's expensive too.

Your dreams are grand. Just not very practical. Good luck.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by rad14701 »

Greetings, cornfarmer...

That Charles 803 is quite antiquated by todays standards... I have done many hours of research into that design since it was introduced by Robert Warren back in the early 1980's... There are far better and less expensive design options today...

To be honest, I don't think you have explored all of the complexities involved with ethanol production at the scale you are entertaining... We see folks coming here almost monthly, thinking they can beat fuel prices by making their own ethanol as a hobby... The reality is that it can become a full time job to just produce enough ethanol to drive back and forth to work every week... We have many topics on the subject... Read through them before you having grand illusions about making plans to produce the amount of ethanol you are considering... Things like 25% more fuel to do the same work as gasoline comes tom mind immediately... Either malting all of your own corn or purchasing bulk enzymes is yet another... You'll find that we can be nay-sayers on the subject for good reason... It's a full time job, or more...

Good luck, stay safe, and enjoy the journey...
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by just sayin »

If you have corn, firewood and time I would say go for it. For Jo Blow in his garage buying propane and corn to distill ethanol it is a waste of time, other than the feeling of doing it for yourself.
On the farm, having a back up plan makes sense.
I would recommend a single set up to get a feel for how much work is involved to fill your first five gallon can.
No big loss if you decide it only makes sense if it all goes south. Skills and tool sets are rarely a terrible investment of your time. With livestock, bio-gas might pan out to supplement firewood.
Good luck, keep us posted.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by still_stirrin »

Here's a good read relative to fuel ethanol...
http://www.neo.ne.gov/statshtml/66.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Notice the tables comparing 87 octane gasoline and ethanol price per gallon in the last 10 years. You can see the influence of gas price on the ethanol price. And remember, the cost to produce doesn't go down...only up. A good crop year like this will ironically depress the market price. And this in conjunction with record low crude prices mean that the blenders are not blending as much ethanol. And that clips the ethanol (& corn) markets, driving producers out of business.

Cornfarmer, you need to do some serious studying before attempting to branch into the fuel market. As a grain producer, I understand the dilema of low corn prices. But the fuel market is just as fragile when the OPEC decides to dump crude prices like they are right now.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by S-Cackalacky »

Take a look at the overhead cost for running such an operation. You'll need a staff to attend the stills while they run - and they will be running for many hours at a time. And, what value do you put on your own time? You will be dedicating a lot of it, so you have to ask, is it worth whatever benefit it might reap. The fuel alcohol industry has only worked because it is highly subsidized by the federal government. Will you be able to participate in the market at a level that will allow you to benefit from those subsidies? Do you have the knowledge and skill set to get started? Have you considered the safety requirements you will need to meet to run such a facility? Lots of research to be done and questions to be answered.

I would also suggest that steel drums might not be a good idea. An alcohol wash can be fairly acidic and you will likely experience problems with rust which can result in a catastrophic outcome.

If you decide to go forward, I would suggest starting on a small scale with a small investment to get some indication of what's envolved in running such an operation.

Good luck to you and stay safe.

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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by cornfarmer »

I appreciate all your guys time in responding and giving me good advice. I'm not nearly as optimistic about my 'brilliant' idea but still hopeful. If anyone has any more advice I'm all ears.

Still_stirrin: Thanks for the words of warning. I do realize its dangerous to run a still and the real risk of explosion with all sorts of combustibles around. I think you misunderstand I'm going to start small and work my way up and hopefuly have a system that is scalable.. I just want to know that its possible without investing thousands in equipment first. I wanna make 5 gallons first run, then 10, 20, 100 gallons at a time max. Not 200,000 gallons. I wouldn't want to sell it. I mentioned the acres and total bushels to say I've got tons of corn available to use and I'd like to use some... not all. Its my understanding that the ATF gives permits for free up to 10k gallons so I'm fine in that department. (I think)
rad14701 wrote:That Charles 803 is quite antiquated by todays standards... I have done many hours of research into that design since it was introduced by Robert Warren back in the early 1980's... There are far better and less expensive design options today...

To be honest, I don't think you have explored all of the complexities involved with ethanol production at the scale you are entertaining...
Rad: I'm getting a good handle on the concepts. My brother actually is a chemical engineer and works at an ethanol plant so I've discussed it a little with him along with watching a ton of youtube videos trying to find a system that works for more then just a couple gallons. I'm interested in a continuous system not batches and if the 803 sucks then I'll make something else. The plans were available online so seemed like a good idea. I'm not trying to beat gas prices per say because honestly I don't drive a lot and if I did I wouldn't mind paying the low price of fuel these days. I'm just interested because I've got the resources available for free basically (compared to someone buying sugar at the store to brew with, just need to buy the enzyme or I could malt the corn but that would be too labor intensive) and I've got more time then I know what to do with to utilize them. I do need to do some more research on drying agents to make it anhydrous because I'm worried 190ish proof isn't good enough. Or is that good enough?

EDIT: I think I found my answer thanks to Husker on another thread.

"Now, to run ethanol with ANY water in it, you will NOT be able to have any petroleum in the mix. You can not cut it with RUG or anything like that. This is one of the big bugaboos with having the gooberment involved in the process. You can not legally sell higher strength than E85 with 15% RUG in it. Thus, you have to have dry (200 proof) ethanol for it to mix properly. But on your own, not providing for others, you can run straight ethanol."
S-Cackalacky wrote:And, what value do you put on your own time? You will be dedicating a lot of it, so you have to ask, is it worth whatever benefit it might reap.
Cackalacky: I understand for most people that work 40 hours a week their time is precious outside of work but I work on the farm and most of my work is in the spring for a couple weeks and the fall a couple weeks. I've maxed out my current hobbies, growing a gardening, canning, hunting, raising/butchering pigs and chicken.... I've got more food then I could eat. Now I was hoping I could start a new one and scale it up from the normal garage producer in the city buying sugar for crazy high prices.
S-Cackalacky wrote:I would also suggest that steel drums might not be a good idea. An alcohol wash can be fairly acidic and you will likely experience problems with rust which can result in a catastrophic outcome.
So if I bought plastic 55 gallon drums to do the fermenting in and then had a stainless steal 55 gallon drum to do the boil I would be okay then? I've got someone I found on craigslist selling stainless drums, I can see what he's selling those for.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by S-Cackalacky »

Yes, plastic for fermentation - HDPE in particular will work well. A stainless steel 55 gallon drum would work well for a boiler. One might be a good start. They can be fairly expensive unless you have a good source for a used one. Just an FYI - if you're using the fuel on your own property, you don't need to denature it. That's written somewhere in the guideline material found on the TTB site.

Good luck with it and stay safe.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by shadylane »

With steam injection you can cook and strip your corn mash in plastic barrels.
The local crop duster will have plastic barrels that defoliant comes in for free.
The defoliant is basically salt and urea, so the barrels would be Ok for fuel grade alcohol.
For the rest of the operation you'll need to recycle as much of the heat energy as possible.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by cornfarmer »

shadylane wrote:With steam injection you can cook and strip your corn mash in plastic barrels.
The local crop duster will have plastic barrels that defoliant comes in for free.
.
This is the type of ingenuity I came here for! I like how you think... now how exactly does one steam inject? And what still setup do I use since the charles 803 is apparently a bad choice?
Last edited by cornfarmer on Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by shadylane »

Look in the upper right hand corner were it says Search. Type in steam injection.
After a couple of hours of reading you'll have a general idea how to use steam injection for cooking and stripping.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by raketemensch »

Even better, use the HD Google Search in the middle at the top, it just works better IMHO.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

raketemensch wrote:Even better, use the HD Google Search in the middle at the top, it just works better IMHO.
+1. Maybe someday the power of Google will lie within that box. Then we shall rule it all. :lolno:
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by raketemensch »

Let us know how it's working out for you. Throw ideas around, etc.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by cornfarmer »

raketemensch wrote:Let us know how it's working out for you. Throw ideas around, etc.
I'm starting to investigate making a wood powered steam generator for my mash cooking, copper pipe or maybe a copper radiator inside a 55 gallon steel drum. I'm hoping I could get several 55 gallon drum mashes cooking for every steam generator.

I've also got a crazy idea I could use some input on. I've got a lot of 4 and 6 inch galvanised steel pipe laying around, since I'm using this for fuel not not drinking alcohol could that used for my still? From my investigation galvanised pipe doesn't degrade under 400 degrees is there any reason I couldn't use that for my homemade stills? The bokakob design is so simple I'm leaning that direction for ease of construction.

EDIT: I found this info just now but what do I care if it's tainted?

"Galvanised Metals

Galvanised metals should not be used in a distillation environment. If galvanised metals are in or downstream of the condenser, then the resultant product will be tainted with lead and or zinc, and should NOT be consumed.

If the galvanized material is used as a flange, or as the boiler, it will not impact the safety of the end product, BUT this material will quickly corrode, and become worthless as a distillation device."
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

cornfarmer wrote:
raketemensch wrote:Let us know how it's working out for you. Throw ideas around, etc.
I'm starting to investigate making a wood powered steam generator for my mash cooking, copper pipe or maybe a copper radiator inside a 55 gallon steel drum. I'm hoping I could get several 55 gallon drum mashes cooking for every steam generator.

I've also got a crazy idea I could use some input on. I've got a lot of 4 and 6 inch galvanised steel pipe laying around, since I'm using this for fuel not not drinking alcohol could that used for my still? From my investigation galvanised pipe doesn't degrade under 400 degrees is there any reason I couldn't use that for my homemade stills? The bokakob design is so simple I'm leaning that direction for ease of construction.

EDIT: I found this info just now but what do I care if it's tainted?

"Galvanised Metals

Galvanised metals should not be used in a distillation environment. If galvanised metals are in or downstream of the condenser, then the resultant product will be tainted with lead and or zinc, and should NOT be consumed.

If the galvanized material is used as a flange, or as the boiler, it will not imt the safety of the end product, BUT this material will quickly corrode, and become worthless as a distillation device."
Farmer, there are other reasons besides the toxicity of the product. At this point I am becoming more concerned with your safety. It seems at every turn you are looking for justification as to why the rules of this forum (read: community) don't apply to you.

Just because you're doing it large scale and aren't consuming it, doesn't mean you should look for us to say plastics and corroding metals are ok for you.

You know what happens when something corrodes, and alcohol fumes release, and hits that wood fire?

Stop half assing your intentions. Do it right and stop looking for ways to circumvent the proper tools.

And this is still a hobby level forum, even if you are only talking for fuel. I am sure there is a better source for you to get information on what you are trying to achieve.

Now, you want to make you and your family a nice bottle to enjoy and pass along while talking about life and love? Find you a spot on the bench and take a pull of ours.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by just sayin »

Cornfarmer,

I think you are on the right track. A Bok would is a simple still to start with.
Your situation with micro industrial distillation with no intention to consume your product would make it easy to suggest you can ignore our material safety rules for your application. Anything posted here may lead someone reading this to be lead to do something stupid. I have to error on the side of caution. As stated above, there is no requirement that you denature your product. You my not intend to take a little taste, but you might. Unlike hobby craft distillers who tend to attempt to keep there activities below the radar and their jars safe in their cellar, your distillery will be known by all and all your high proof corn liquor will be in fuel storage tanks and the fuel tank of your tractor..... Somebody is going to find the temptation to steal a sip too strong to resist, so.....

That being said, unless you planning to denature and render every drop undrinkable I would suggest stainless pipe. I do believe you would be fine to use the steel pipe you have only to conduct your experiments to determine if you are going to go into production. If you find it worthwhile to continue the investment in stainless will not be wasted. Just my two cents...
Just Sayin'
Last edited by just sayin on Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by cornfarmer »

just sayin wrote: That being said unless you planning to denature to render every drop undrinkable I would suggest stainless pipe. I do believe you would be fine to use the steel pipe you have only to conduct your experiments to determine if you are going to go into production. If you find it worthwhile to continue the investment in stainless will not be wasted. Just my two cents...
Just Sayin'
That was my intention to denature all of it. I appreciate the helpful feedback. I will invest in the proper pipe after a successful test run.
ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote: Stop half assing your intentions. Do it right and stop looking for ways to circumvent the proper tools.
Doing it right would be 50k invested and jumping head first. This is hobby level. I'll start with one drop of alcohol and go from there. I don't want to put money into this because I might lose interest after my first test run. It'll probably be too much work and then I'll move onto my next project like shingling my house.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by FullySilenced »

Mother Earth magazine had an article about fuel production on the farm a few years back.... might be work a search...
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

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cornfarmer wrote: I don't want to put money into this because I might lose interest after my first test run. It'll probably be too much work and then I'll move onto my next project like shingling my house.
Uh huh! I have a feeling we might be getting closer to reality now.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by shadylane »

FullySilenced wrote:Mother Earth magazine had an article about fuel production on the farm a few years back.... might be work a search...
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_lib ... meCh7.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by FullySilenced »

This article was years ago but give some basics... and they were only working on fuel production.... in a self sufficient situation ... maybe on a farm...

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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by goose eye »

Rape seed an make biodiesel. If you a farmer your
tractors is costin more to operate than truck. Breakin
land one tractor could use 100 gal a day. Get fed Grant
on top of that an tax breaks.

So I'm tole
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by shadylane »

It takes a lot of heat energy to distill ethanol. Then the engine burning it for fuel wastes 60-75% of the energy in heat from the radiator and exhaust.
Some one needs to figure out how to recover the wasted energy from engines powering irrigation wells to distill it's own fuel.
The engines are in a fixed location and have plenty of cooling water present. Also the transportation costs of grain and spent grain that could be used for fertilizer would be low, since every thing would be located next to the field.
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by still_stirrin »

Perpetual motion machine...

How about a fan to capture the energy in the furnace exhaust, coupled to a generator to power a water pump to feed makup water to the tubes inside the wood fired boiler/steam generator and also blow fresh combustion air into the boiler. Then, after using the steam to heat the jacket of your still's boiler, condense it through a tube in tube heat exchanger to preheat the makeup water going back to the boiler/steam generator.

The byproducts to contend with are smoke from the boiler and your mash and/or ethanol products. The inputs into the system are wood (obviously) and water for your "closed loop" water/steam system. Oh, and probalbly additional electricity because I'd doubt you could recover enough energy from the smokestack to power all the pump's power needs.

Grab the bootstraps and pull...pretty soon you'll be 10 feet off the ground! :lol:
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Re: Ethanol Fuel from Corn - Bigger Scale

Post by Almtngoat »

I don't know if that 50 bushels is on the cob or shucked, off the cob, dried and ground. Consider that it takes 20# dried ground corn to make a gallon or so of high test ethanol that 50 bushels of corn off the stalk won't last very long. It is simply not an efficient use of aerable land for food stocks and is not as "green" friendly as the tree huggers want us to believe, now I believe in clean and green but food to fuel is definitely not the answer.
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