Ethanol additive or homemade help

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11sec76
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Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by 11sec76 »

I reposted this from somewhere else because they said I asked it in the wrong area. Sorry for the extra reading.

The main problem I'm having is that my vehicle is tuned to run on E85 however in the winter months it gets down to 60 or 65%. I'd like to find a way to make my own ethanol or if there was an additive I could buy that would increase the ethanol content to 85.

I have been reading and searching for months and have yet to come up with an additive so I was kind of hoping maybe you guys had an inside secret. Otherwise I can't wait to learn how to make my own. Buying a drum of e98 is pretty expensive but even worse trying to store it for a lengthy timeframe.

I have read many posts from others saying how it is not cost effective to make your own fuel so I wanted to reassure everyone that I only needed to make enough to increase my content and was not trying to make enough fuel to drive on every day. Any help anyone can give me would be greatly appreciated!
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john2674
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by john2674 »

ok as far as an additive...to me seems like the only way to boost ethanol content is to add ethanol...
now as far as build a still or buy premade fuel.??? if I were you id start with figuring out just how much ethanol you need to produce to meet your needs.
vs just buying the fuel. that will help you figure out how big of a still you need. then Figure the cost of materials to build the still|( one time expense). cost of consumables// sugar,yeast, heat source.
Then you also need to consider that running a still is illegal in most places. in the u.s. you can apply for a fuel making permit though.
If you go that route I personally wouldn't make any drinking alcohol. cause the cops will know about you. If you do get a fuel permit you can buy a still also instead of building it.
to get almost pure ethanol your going to want a reflux still. so that's one topic you can research. if you look at the bottom of most of the veterans posts you'll see a link called spoon feeding, that's a great place to start.
because drinking alcohol and racing alcohol can be dangerous to produce, but if you arm yourself with knowledge on here you'll be fine!
Also something that helped me when I was first learning was the button at the top of the page called HD Google Search that's my favorite way to search through the thousands of pages of information contained on this site.
In short... Read Read...then read some more. trust me it will start to sink in. :thumbup:
cob
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by cob »

if YOU modified your vehicle to run specifically to run only on E85 unmodify it.

if you own an unmodified E85 vehicle it is designed to run on any fuel blend up to and including E85

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by rad14701 »

If you are insistent on making ethanol to use as fuel, and feel that you can make enough cheap enough, you need a still that produces the purest spirits possible... For fuel that would probably be a Vapor Management column... Your output has to be 95% ABV... Remember that other 5% is primarily water... You can't get much purer because ethanol being hydroscopic it will absorb moisture from the atmosphere, reducing itself back to 95% in short order... So you will always be adding water into your fuel system which can cause problems over time...

If this is an everyday driver just pull up to a pump and use whatever because you're going to be spending a lot of money trying to produce your own bump-up fuel, far beyond a cost-effective ROI... And if you screw up just once you end up either paying someone or using your own time and labor going through you entire fuel system...

I remember back when they first started adding ethanol to fuel, large scale, back in the late 70's and I worked on a lot of vehicles that ended up with contaminated fuel systems... Ever seen the zinc separate off galvanized steel and plug every filter and orifice on a vehicle...??? Not pretty, and definitely not cheap... I replaced dozens of fuel tanks, carburetors, fuel pumps, fuel lines, and virtually every other part of fuel systems...
11sec76
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by 11sec76 »

Ok well firstly, it takes about 10 gallons to get the content from 60 to 85. It's only really important when I go to race. I can run the pump fuel as long as I'm not hard on the car. That being said it was modified to make more power. On 93 octane, it makes around 950 HP. On e85 it's over 1100.

It was converted for a specific reason. The injectors and lines and everything else was modified to run it. Please don't tell me to un-modify the car as an answer to my question. That's just counterproductive and a long post for no reason.

So, I live in ms so it appears I'd have to get a permit. I'm really not interested in making something to drink because I am too scared I'd poison myself to try. So thanks for the informative post John, I'll look into getting the permit and trying to do a cost analysis to see if it's feasible.
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

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The trouble with gasoline/ethanol fuel blends is that for it to mix right the ethanol has to be anhydrous - which means it has to be completely dry. 96% is the absolute best you can do in atmospheric conditions. However 96% has enough water in it to phase separate when mixed with gasoline - which'll get you a slug of water at the bottom of your tank. To get it Completely dry you'll have to run it through something to absorb the water in it (silica gel, drierite, or even baked corn meal). And then to keep hermetically sealed from air or it'll suck water out of the air and drop itself back to azeotrope (96%).

It's actually quite a bit easier to run straight azeo ethanol through engines than screw with blends. Before you go through all the expense and trouble (which can be considerable) to build a still big enough to even partially fulfill a engines requirements you might want to think about modifying your engine to run straight azo ethanol.

If you want just something short term to pour in your tank you could buy denatured alcohol from a hardware store, run it through a absorber and pour it in. Denatured alcohol is usually ethanol mixed with small amounts of acetone (10% ish) to make it undrinkable.
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by cob »

11sec76 wrote:Ok well firstly, it takes about 10 gallons to get the content from 60 to 85. It's only really important when I go to race. I can run the pump fuel as long as I'm not hard on the car. That being said it was modified to make more power. On 93 octane, it makes around 950 HP. On e85 it's over 1100.

It was converted for a specific reason. The injectors and lines and everything else was modified to run it. Please don't tell me to un-modify the car as an answer to my question. That's just counterproductive and a long post for no reason.

So, I live in ms so it appears I'd have to get a permit. I'm really not interested in making something to drink because I am too scared I'd poison myself to try. So thanks for the informative post John, I'll look into getting the permit and trying to do a cost analysis to see if it's feasible.
you didn't include this pertinent information in your first post, if you had my answer would have been different.
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11sec76
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by 11sec76 »

FuelMaker wrote:The trouble with gasoline/ethanol fuel blends is that for it to mix right the ethanol has to be anhydrous - which means it has to be completely dry. 96% is the absolute best you can do in atmospheric conditions. However 96% has enough water in it to phase separate when mixed with gasoline - which'll get you a slug of water at the bottom of your tank. To get it Completely dry you'll have to run it through something to absorb the water in it (silica gel, drierite, or even baked corn meal). And then to keep hermetically sealed from air or it'll suck water out of the air and drop itself back to azeotrope (96%).

It's actually quite a bit easier to run straight azeo ethanol through engines than screw with blends. Before you go through all the expense and trouble (which can be considerable) to build a still big enough to even partially fulfill a engines requirements you might want to think about modifying your engine to run straight azo ethanol.

If you want just something short term to pour in your tank you could buy denatured alcohol from a hardware store, run it through a absorber and pour it in. Denatured alcohol is usually ethanol mixed with small amounts of acetone (10% ish) to make it undrinkable.
Sounds like this is a good option as it's only necessary in winter months at races. Normally it'll just be running on whatever I get at the pump. Will acetone harm my engine? I can't say I know much about it, but since it's flammable I'm sure it would probably just burn off. What type of absorber would you recommend?
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by rad14701 »

I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around how E85 can produce more horsepower than 93 Octane... Unless its due to how things are tuned/metered for the less potent E85 because it'll take more E85 to produce the same horsepower as 93 Octane... Just sayin...
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by FuelMaker »

rad14701 wrote:I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around how E85 can produce more horsepower than 93 Octane... Unless its due to how things are tuned/metered for the less potent E85 because it'll take more E85 to produce the same horsepower as 93 Octane... Just sayin...
Even though ethanol/methanol have fewer BTUs per gallon, you can pour a whole lot more into a cylinder and ignite it which provides more power per stroke. With a carbureted engine you almost double the jet size and advance the timing quite a bit. Oddly enough it's because ethanol/methanol burns cooler than gasoline - you can burn more without melting the piston.
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by FuelMaker »

11sec76 wrote: Sounds like this is a good option as it's only necessary in winter months at races. Normally it'll just be running on whatever I get at the pump. Will acetone harm my engine? I can't say I know much about it, but since it's flammable I'm sure it would probably just burn off. What type of absorber would you recommend?
Assuming you've already modified your engine to handle ethanol (replaced hoses, seals, gaskets, etc) it should handle the acetone just fine, otherwise it'd melt them. As far as an absorber goes, I prefer drierite - it chemically combines the water in the fluid stream. It can then be regenerated by baking it at 400F. Drierite is just gypsum in pellet form. The man disadvantage is that it doesnt hold much water per pound. Another one you can use is a molecular sieve - that holds quite a bit more water but is more expensive. I wouldnt recommend using silica gel - it has the possibility that some of it will dissolve because of the acetone.

Take a look at https://www.sorbentsystems.com/desiccants_charts.html at the different types of dessicants.
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by rad14701 »

FuelMaker wrote:
rad14701 wrote:I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around how E85 can produce more horsepower than 93 Octane... Unless its due to how things are tuned/metered for the less potent E85 because it'll take more E85 to produce the same horsepower as 93 Octane... Just sayin...
Even though ethanol/methanol have fewer BTUs per gallon, you can pour a whole lot more into a cylinder and ignite it which provides more power per stroke. With a carbureted engine you almost double the jet size and advance the timing quite a bit. Oddly enough it's because ethanol/methanol burns cooler than gasoline - you can burn more without melting the piston.
That is exactly what I expected your response to be... So due to the nature of your engine, not being multi-fuel compatible, the 93 octane would essentially destroy your engine... Sometimes you have to choose between an everyday grocery getter and a race car...
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by FuelMaker »

rad14701 wrote:That is exactly what I expected your response to be... So due to the nature of your engine, not being multi-fuel compatible, the 93 octane would essentially destroy your engine... Sometimes you have to choose between an everyday grocery getter and a race car...
I wasnt the OP, just explaining how/why ethanol/methanol is used as a racing fuel. But you're right - you can't run a standard gasoline vehicle engine on ethanol very well without significant modifications.
Well actually that's not quite true: with a computer controlled fuel injected vehicle with sensors that tells the computer the ratio of gasoline/ethanol the duration of the fuel injection pulses can be adjusted (thus how much fuel is injected), how much air is let in, and the timing of the ignition spark adjusted on the fly so it'll run just fine.
E85 does have one significant advantage over straight ethanol in that it ignites MUCH easier, especially in colder weather. I'm not a racer but I imagine that'd be important in a race car. Maybe important enough to want to deal with the pain-in-the-ass parts of ethanol/gasoline mixtures.
The OP is interested in stilling for almost the same reason as me: using it in engines. Except in my case it's for use in small engines (motorized bicycles, chainsaws, generators, etc), for cooking, and as a light source in a post-shtf environment. And it's fun.


EDIT: Just looked up the SDS of Crown denatured alcohol (Lowes denatured alcohol) turns out its 70-75% methanol, 15-25% ethanol, and 0-5% isopropanol. Kleen-Strip denatured alcohol is 30-50% ethanol and 40-60% methanol. So my earlier warnings about acetone are worthless - sorry, should have did a bit of research first.
If you want something thats 90% ethanol look for denatured alcohol made as fuel for alcohol stoves.
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by 11sec76 »

FuelMaker wrote:
rad14701 wrote:That is exactly what I expected your response to be... So due to the nature of your engine, not being multi-fuel compatible, the 93 octane would essentially destroy your engine... Sometimes you have to choose between an everyday grocery getter and a race car...
I wasnt the OP, just explaining how/why ethanol/methanol is used as a racing fuel. But you're right - you can't run a standard gasoline vehicle engine on ethanol very well without significant modifications.
Well actually that's not quite true: with a computer controlled fuel injected vehicle with sensors that tells the computer the ratio of gasoline/ethanol the duration of the fuel injection pulses can be adjusted (thus how much fuel is injected), how much air is let in, and the timing of the ignition spark adjusted on the fly so it'll run just fine.
E85 does have one significant advantage over straight ethanol in that it ignites MUCH easier, especially in colder weather. I'm not a racer but I imagine that'd be important in a race car. Maybe important enough to want to deal with the pain-in-the-ass parts of ethanol/gasoline mixtures.
The OP is interested in stilling for almost the same reason as me: using it in engines. Except in my case it's for use in small engines (motorized bicycles, chainsaws, generators, etc), for cooking, and as a light source in a post-shtf environment. And it's fun.


EDIT: Just looked up the SDS of Crown denatured alcohol (Lowes denatured alcohol) turns out its 70-75% methanol, 15-25% ethanol, and 0-5% isopropanol. Kleen-Strip denatured alcohol is 30-50% ethanol and 40-60% methanol. So my earlier warnings about acetone are worthless - sorry, should have did a bit of research first.
If you want something thats 90% ethanol look for denatured alcohol made as fuel for alcohol stoves.
Exactly as you stated, my car has multiple tunes for different types of fuel. (93, e85, and e70). I can change it based on the content. I drive every day on e70 tune and when I race, I change over to e85 tune. If I get caught where they don't have e85 pumps, I can swap to the 93 tune and run just fine.

Ethanol allows me to run quite a bit more timing and about 50% more boost so I can make 200 more horsepower just by changing the fuel over. It is approximately 105 octane race fuel! At a pump(only in summer months though).

Is this something like you're referring to?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FHLGX8U/re ... 5348800285" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

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Yeah, exactly like that - I just looked at Moda Flame SDS and it's 90% ethanol. They're awfully proud of their shit though. Klean Strip Green is 80-90% ethanol and is only 8 bucks a quart. (only!)
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Strip- ... 1vZc5bqZug" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Edit: I guess if you get the 24 quart of Moda Flame it works out to 5 bucks a quart. Which isnt too bad actually.
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

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FuelMaker wrote:Yeah, exactly like that - I just looked at Moda Flame SDS and it's 90% ethanol. They're awfully proud of their shit though. Klean Strip Green is 80-90% ethanol and is only 8 bucks a quart. (only!)
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Strip- ... 1vZc5bqZug" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Edit: I guess if you get the 24 quart of Moda Flame it works out to 5 bucks a quart. Which isnt too bad actually.
Ok, so do these need to be ran through a filter or anything like I would if I were making my own?
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by FuelMaker »

It's probably a good idea - since you don't know about how it's been stored its could have easily drawn water from the air.

BTW, if you look at the MSDS of the fuel you'll see that the balance of the non-ethanol ingredients is isopropyl alcohol, it's there to give the flames a nice yellow color since straight ethanol is a dim blue flame that is almost invisible.
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

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thanks so much for your help.
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by 11sec76 »

FuelMaker wrote:It's probably a good idea - since you don't know about how it's been stored its could have easily drawn water from the air.

BTW, if you look at the MSDS of the fuel you'll see that the balance of the non-ethanol ingredients is isopropyl alcohol, it's there to give the flames a nice yellow color since straight ethanol is a dim blue flame that is almost invisible.
OK sir, after doing my research for far too long, I've found this. Hoping it's the answer to my problems. Please tell me what you think.

http://www.recochem.com/products/firepl ... hanol_fuel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Or smart fuel (probably the easiest to get)
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Re: Ethanol additive or homemade help

Post by FuelMaker »

Nice! The Bio Flame SDS says it's 95% ethanol and 5% propanol (flame colorant). Should do you well. The smart fuel is another 90% ethanol, 10% proprietary secret ingredient.
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