Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

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mash rookie
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by mash rookie »

Guitar master You have been holding out on us. I thought you were a Sushi chef.

You are confusing me VW. Faster vapor speed equals faster take off and lower ABV if run faster than packing efficiency. Slower vapor speeds typically result in higher ABV.

Lava rock works well because of high surface area and “wet-ability” or surface tension affect that allows for better evaporation. Consider how water beads up on a freshly waxed car verses old oxidized paint.

HETP Height equivalent to theoretical plates. Packing is like stacking plates on top of each other. You get more theoretical plates in the column thereby more distillation cycles in the same space. A thumper will provide ONE distillation cycle.

One more thing. I have boiled my lava rock when it gets nasty. Just dumped it into my boiler with fresh water for 30 minutes before rinsing and setting up for a run. It cleans up easily.
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by wv_cooker »

Now I am confused which is pretty easy to do. :D Everything that I have read says that larger diameter columns equal slower vapor speeds, however the volume of vapors would mean more for take off which I equated to faster take off's. Now you are saying faster vapor speeds equal faster take off's, I assume that means that faster vapor speeds in a given column diameter means faster take off's for that size column, is this correct. And that I would understand.

That would bring me back to faster take off = more smearing and less abv as opposed to slower vapor speeds = less smearing, better separation, higher abv.

I do understand HETP. 1 plate = 1 redistillation whether theoretical or real plate. I am thinking and have done considerable reading on the subject that the more liquid held on or in that plate for longer periods will equal better separation than sending the liquid back to the boiler to start over as vapor.

Glad to see you here MR, hope things are well and look forward to the beatings from someone smarter than I. :D Thanks.
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by drinkingdog »

If you think of a carburetor and the the way air flows through it as the air goes through it speeds up because the throat is getting smaller. When you look at a 2 inch column the vapor would have to go a lot faster to push the same amount of vapor that a 4 inch column could handle. No matter what size column faster vapor speed equals faster take of rates. Of course you have the trade off of smearing and lower abv at faster vapor speeds
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by wv_cooker »

Thanks DD, Carburetors I definitely understand. I understand the theory's, I think my verbiage is the issue. :oops: :roll: I am trying to get a grasp as to which is better under a column , a thumper, or a plate with higher liquid levels. If you look at PP's Fu Man it's seems that creating more higher abv vapors to send into the column at faster speeds works.
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by mash rookie »

WV You get it. BTU's in = vapor volume. It will move faster in a small pipe, slower in a larger diameter.

The key is matching vapor speed to your packing or plates. Generally, slower vapor speeds will produce higher ABV. Packings are different. ie; SPP has a reported high throughput rate while remaining efficient. The parent site has a great vapor speed calculator. (Thank you Rad) Play with that to learn.

I am not convinced that a base thumper adds more distillation cycles (HETP) than the same height of packing. Build it and learn.
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by wv_cooker »

Hey I'm WV this time, cool. :D :D

I have used the calcs from the beginning MR, I have tried to reference as often as possible to get other Newbs to start using them as well. Thanks, Rad.

Understanding 1 plate = 1 distillation cycle I am not convinced that the one plate makes a difference other than one distillation either, however with the deeper bath's reporting good results, I am thinking volume and time. The more you hold without returning to the boiler, and the longer it stay's gives the higher abv liquid the ability to mix with the lower abv liquid causing both to equal out at a higher abv to be turned to vapor and sent back up the column. (hope I said that correctly)

I am building it, we'll see what it does soon.
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by mash rookie »

WV, VW, I am dyslexic. I turn numbers around all the time too. I meant no disrespect. (well, there was that time I called you a Hooker) I just thought you were having sex in a Volkswagen. lol

Dont forget pictures amigo. We want to see your work so we can really pick on you. Or praise you. Tough crowd huh?
Take care.
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by wv_cooker »

mash rookie wrote:WV, VW, I am dyslexic. I turn numbers around all the time too. I meant no disrespect. (well, there was that time I called you a Hooker) I just thought you were having sex in a Volkswagen. lol

Dont forget pictures amigo. We want to see your work so we can really pick on you. Or praise you. Tough crowd huh?
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by Richard7 »

Looking forward to the results W.V. I have lava rock just haven't taken the time to try it in my column. I may on my next run.

My column is only two inch (Hope to graduate some day) and I am torn between doing a flute or just a good packed column. If I see enough :thumbup: from well packed columns I may skip the whole flute idea. The only thing I would miss is the being able to see what is going on. I have to admit that would be a cool tool to see how much reflux your returning the packing or plates.

Maybe 2 or 3 sight glasses on a lava rock packed column would give me the best of both worlds. But I would only do that if I went bigger.

Can't wait to see what your building.
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by wv_cooker »

Decisions, decisions huh Richard! Once you start to understand Diameters, Vapor Speeds, Plates, whether theoretical or real, a realization of god how many choices do I have kinda set's in doesn't it? :D :D I have thought packing it's cheaper and easy then naw I want plates and glasses and bling and and and. It becomes fun to see all the possibilities. I do have some surprises coming in the next few weeks. As I am now on a fixed income mommy makes me wait and spend my check each month. A few more parts and a couple more tools next week and I have my Camera ready.
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by The G »

Hi,
I'm a newbies at this but i try to understand it god her, so i have read that you can distil your product about 3 to 4 time depending of the FG,( if you have a 8 to 9% wash) so now if 1 plate equal 1 distilation, so In pratic you just need a column whit 3 or 4 plate if you use a bigger diameter column, so less vapor more ABV, and if you what to run it faster you use a smaler column faster vapor less ABV so whit more plate to achive the same ABV, i'm right or way out of the way her.


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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by drinkingdog »

Distilling a given mesh 3 or 4 times in a pot still will give you a different final product than a 3 or 4 plated column. The pot still run 3 or 4 times would give you more of a neutral than the plated column
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by emptyglass »

LWTCS wrote:EG are you packing the full length of the system when set up for vodka?
Sorry mate, been busy latley. No mate, not the full system. MR tried that, with mixed results, IIRC. I tried numerous combos, they all worked to some degree.
5 plates and 24" of packing gave a true neutral. Guessing the 24" was giving 8 or more cycles, assuming 13 cycles is needed for neutral. So hetp must be close to 3" in a 4"column.
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by LWTCS »

And your collection speed?
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by DAD300 »

The G,
...there is a symbiotic relationship between column diameter, column height, packing and vapor speed to attain the best HETP.

For most of us the column dia and height is a given and we play with the packing and vapor speed to "tune" for the desired (lower or higher ABV) output.

If everything else is optimized, you can tune the ABV by vapor speed, reflux ratio/takeoff rate!

ALCON,

I like the lava rock idea a lot! The Holly Grail of cheap and effective!

Post by drinkingdog » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:30 am
Distilling a given mesh 3 or 4 times in a pot still will give you a different final product than a 3 or 4 plated column. The pot still run 3 or 4 times would give you more of a neutral than the plated column

Yes, but the more neutral here comes from watering the boiler charge between distillations. Every dilution traps some of the carry over contaminants.


With a 1:1 reflux ratio, it takes ~14 Theoretical Plates to make Azeotrope in a single run, from 10% wash.

The calculators are set for Marbles, Raschig rings and Scrubbies...I use the Scrubbies setting divided by 2 for approximate SPP calculations. i.e. if the Reflux Still Sizing & Purity Calcuator says a 2" x 2 meter column packed with SS Wool produces 14.8 Theoretical Plates, makes azeotrope, SPP can do it in less than one meter.

O.k. Using that logic, with a 1: 1 reflux ratio, how many inches or cm of lava rock to make Azeo or total height divided by 14 for one theoretical plate?

I think what LWTCS is getting at, is the HETP of Lava needs to be calculated within some standard. 1:1 reflux and then takeoff rate, minutes per quart or liter.

From another post...emptyglass says he can get 8 TP's from 24". Calculates to 3" HETP (pretty damn good)...but what was the reflux ratio and or take off rate?

If I up the reflux rate to 4:1 my 2" with SPP can make Azeo in 24" but at 1/3rd the take off rate.

We need a standard for the Lava Rock HETP to be accurate.

We thrashed with this for SPP and came up with 10% wash, 1:1 reflux and takeoff of a liter per XX minutes.
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by emptyglass »

LWTCS wrote:And your collection speed?
About 2 to 2.5 litres an hour, straight from wash strength (say, 10%?).
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by Odin »

That's what I hit with a 120 cm of SPP packing on a 9 or 10% wash in one run. About 2.5 liters of pure 96% azeo. With a 2 inch diameter column. And 2,000 watts of power input.

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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by emptyglass »

your doing well out of a 2" column odin, but this is a whiskey still with some rock tossed on top. Just a fancy pot still that makes whikky and vodky, nothing more. It dosnt need anything fancy to control it.
I'd like to try some spp in there. do you think it will handle being pushed harder than say, 3 -4 litres an hour? wont choke will it?
I would expect a good improvement in take off rate to justify the extra cost of spp though. Lava rock is pretty cheap.
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by Odin »

That addition of a column on top of your plates, Empty, filled with lavarock, makes it very versatile! In a way it does what I do with my LM. An LM is basically a fractionating rig, but by reprogramming it, it can perform like a (double) potstill. You have this fantastic rig for taste rich product and by adding a column and packing, you turn it into a vodka producing flute.

And I feel like a real ass, posting here about a completely different set-up. As if I was sorta hijacking the tread? Not my style! So what happened? I thought I was posting in Mash Rookies great tread on "So let's talk column packing". There my observations would be in the right place. Here they are just a nuisance, since my rig is not a flute, nor does it have lava rock.

My apologies!

Empty, on your Q: it is my feeling that SPP packing would work if you have a 3 inch diameter column on top of 4 inch flute. The smaller column ups vapour speeds and concentrates reflux better and that's what's needed for SPP to work optimally.

More info: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=42392

Regards, Odin.
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Re: Plated column with lava rock. Whiskey and vodka.

Post by DAD300 »

Well, having not tried lava rock, I can't make a factual direct comparison...but am sure SPP will flood quicker (with less power) than Lava.

But, If I keep my reflux at 1:1, power at 3,500 watts, I can easily get 4 liters of Azeo an hour from a 3" x 30" column of SPP.

The lava rock will not beat the SPP for HETP, but it will be cheaper and may be more versatile from the standpoint of being able to run more power, greater takeoff and force less than Azeo.

If I want a lower ABV...I just scoop out some SPP and replace it with a few Scrubbies.

I see the value of this hybrid setup, (column over plates) as a quick change! Take the column from over the plates for a known whiskeyish ABV and add the column for neutral.
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