Concentric Pot/Reflux Still

[Doogie]

Just realized the stainless steel drain thingie I bought has a lead connector nut ... of course, I cut my lid already ... so it is in the metal shop getting a repair ... grr ... lol ... probably no real contact, but don't feel like frying my noodle ...

As for the water lines, like they said, this way your water jacket does not drain completely when you reduce water flow thru it.

[baron4406]

Ok results from the 2 X 1.5 x 1 still test. First off it runs like a dream. Knocks down everything I threw at it with almost no water flow thru the column. I had the 1.5" column stuffed with packing to improve efficiency. Adjusted the water so it was cold at the top, and hot at the product outlet. The stink, bad wine i ran started at 92%, and I only ran about 1.5 quarts but it ended up in the hearts at 85%. I played with it alot. Opened the needle valve and let it rip, then closed it and saw how the column stabilized. This won't be an azeotrope monster, it only has a 24" packed column. Its the height i need to fit in my cellar. Even when I was in the "stripping" mode I didn't have to adjust the water. Still does do some strange things, temp will slowly rise thru the run if I'm running at pot still speeds, ends up over 200 degrees, but the ABV remains rock solid. Probably better to run it a little slower, but like I said this is a whiskey still. Oh by the way, I caught it on fire......... when you have 200ml of 90% in your hand its not a good idea to play with a water valve.......burned off my column insulation. DUH.
So what's next? Looks like a 3 x 2.5 x 2 is next on my list. I may make my upcoming Odin style rye whiskey with it, but i plan on making my 3" Boka my go to still.
Any questions about the run please let me know. Also didn't get my takeoff liebig built in time so I just ran a coil of 3/8" tube like ya see in the pic, distillate was very hot coming out of the still, and 80 degrees in the parrot. I may not bother with the liebig.
Conclusions? it doesn't need to be this long. As wild as it sounds it could probably be half the length and do fine. There is something very interesting about this design. I may build 3 or 4 this summer for fun. What I'm thinking is Rad's idea of stuffing packing in to the vapor outlet of the 1" pipe is the key. When the water jacket cools that copper mesh its like a huge condenser. Just know I'm running city water, you use almost nothing during a run and its fool proof. I spent all run knocking the water back, it was actually a challenge. The spigot at the hose was just open a tiny crack, and the feed ball valve was open a tiny crack. At the product outlet it was very hot to the touch, 3 inches up it was ice cold. Also keep in mind I was running way too much heat, next run I'll back off the burner to almost nothing. This , in my mind, blows the holy grail of starter reflux stills, the Boka.........out of the water. Construction is alot easier. And you need decent water pressure to get thru a double wound 1/4" coil, trust me I know. You could run this concentric with the tiniest water pump and be fine. With a proper size column this would make a great reflux still.
On to the 3" size build, I'm gonna make that one as long as this one is. So any of you on the fence what are you waiting for?

[Raw22]

Im going to be building this in with a 1.5" outer shell, 1.25" inner pipe and a 1" section inbetween the 2 reducers.

Since I got a free 35" piece of 1.5" cooper, I will be making the condenser section 12" leaving 23" for the reflux column.
I just wanted to check that the dimensions will be ok. Befor I start cutting.

[baron4406]

You gonna be building a smaller one, read what I wrote up there. It doesn't need to be that long. Try to copy the dimensions of the one Rad built.

[bluenose]

You gonna be building a smaller one, read what I wrote up there. It doesn't need to be that long. Try to copy the dimensions of the one Rad built.

what about having some length for packing?

[Raw22]

You gonna be building a smaller one, read what I wrote up there. It doesn't need to be that long. Try to copy the dimensions of the one Rad built.

what about having some length for packing?

My main intention for this still is to run it for flavored products, since I've already got a Boka for neutrals.
I stupidly didnt think to make the head deatachable on the Boka, so now I need a smaller still for the flavored runs.

I was going to make it a little longer because the plumbing supply I go to only sells by the foot.

[baron4406]

If you want to make a neutral, make the column as long as you can (within reason of course). For whiskey or brandy a short, packed column works fine. They even make great stripping columns, just take out the packing and needle valve.
Wanna know a secret? To make a decent neutral you don't necessarily need a still that can achieve azeotrope, you just need a neutral wash and distill it as high ABV as you can and run it slow. Don't blab that too much around these parts, some folks might take offence.

[bluenose]

right on... so here's a dumb question... you pack the part above the takeoff right?

[baron4406]

On this type of still there are two sections of packing. Your column packing is just that, in the column. But you also put packing above the takeoff in condenser area . Rad packs his to the vapor tube throat and that's what I do too. The upper packing works to slow the vapor down and create turbulence, because its contacting the wall of your condenser tube it also gets cold and acts like a huge condenser. It works amazingly well. Such a simple thing too.

[Raw22]

If you want to make a neutral, make the column as long as you can (within reason of course). For whiskey or brandy a short, packed column works fine. They even make great stripping columns, just take out the packing and needle valve.
Wanna know a secret? To make a decent neutral you don't necessarily need a still that can achieve azeotrope, you just need a neutral wash and distill it as high ABV as you can and run it slow. Don't blab that too much around these parts, some folks might take offence.

I thought that when making whiskey, you wanted no packing because you want to avoid reflux.

I run my boka for neutral, its got a 40" or packed column.

[rad14701]

If you want to make a neutral, make the column as long as you can (within reason of course). For whiskey or brandy a short, packed column works fine. They even make great stripping columns, just take out the packing and needle valve.
Wanna know a secret? To make a decent neutral you don't necessarily need a still that can achieve azeotrope, you just need a neutral wash and distill it as high ABV as you can and run it slow. Don't blab that too much around these parts, some folks might take offence.

I thought that when making whiskey, you wanted no packing because you want to avoid reflux.

I run my boka for neutral, its got a 40" or packed column.

With the concentric head it is still beneficial to have packing in the condenser itself regardless of whether running in pot still or reflux mode... It is the packing that provides added cooling... I don't even bother using the cap I have for the condenser because all of the vapor gets knocked down... But I also use a short packed column to bump the %ABV of my flavored spirits too... That's the difference between pure pot stilling and running in hybrid mode... I just finished up some Gerber Barley that blended at 146 proof (73%) and it had just the amount of flavor I was looking for, even when tempered down to drinking strength... I'll be making more of that soon but the grocery store was out of barley flavored Gerber yesterday...

[rad14701]

Rad packs his to the vapor tube throat and that's what I do too. The upper packing works to slow the vapor down and create turbulence, because its contacting the wall of your condenser tube it also gets cold and acts like a huge condenser. It works amazingly well. Such a simple thing too.

The last concentric I built only has the top half of the vapor chamber filled with SS scrubber and it works perfectly... That way more vapor gets drawn directly to the chamber wall before any of the packed section is utilized, further increasing its knockdown capability...

[Raw22]

If you want to make a neutral, make the column as long as you can (within reason of course). For whiskey or brandy a short, packed column works fine. They even make great stripping columns, just take out the packing and needle valve.
Wanna know a secret? To make a decent neutral you don't necessarily need a still that can achieve azeotrope, you just need a neutral wash and distill it as high ABV as you can and run it slow. Don't blab that too much around these parts, some folks might take offence.

I thought that when making whiskey, you wanted no packing because you want to avoid reflux.

I run my boka for neutral, its got a 40" or packed column.

With the concentric head it is still beneficial to have packing in the condenser itself regardless of whether running in pot still or reflux mode... It is the packing that provides added cooling... I don't even bother using the cap I have for the condenser because all of the vapor gets knocked down... But I also use a short packed column to bump the %ABV of my flavored spirits too... That's the difference between pure pot stilling and running in hybrid mode... I just finished up some Gerber Barley that blended at 146 proof (73%) and it had just the amount of flavor I was looking for, even when tempered down to drinking strength... I'll be making more of that soon but the grocery store was out of barley flavored Gerber yesterday...

Rad, I understand that packing the vapor tube helps with the condenser, I just hadnt considered packing the column slightly for whiskey runs to bump up the %ABV excellent bit of information.

My plan is to build a concentric still based on your apartment one, out of 1.5" with a 8- 10" condenser and a short column of 24" or so. Since the still is going to have two reducers like the apartment still, would connecting the bottom reducer directly to my keg boiler be enough of a column, if not in your opinion what would be the shortest column I could use?

Also is the spacing between the two reducers on your appartment still critical .

Got some sweet feed in the fermentor right now that im hoping to run with the new still by memorial day.

[rad14701]

My plan is to build a concentric still based on your apartment one, out of 1.5" with a 8- 10" condenser and a short column of 24" or so. Since the still is going to have two reducers like the apartment still, would connecting the bottom reducer directly to my keg boiler be enough of a column, if not in your opinion what would be the shortest column I could use?

Also is the spacing between the two reducers on your appartment still critical .

Yes, you can run the dual reducer head directly off the keg, or use a short packed column of 6 - 8 inches or maybe even 12"... With my rig I can match up different length packed sections for whatever configuration I want...

As for the spacing between reducers, I prefer to keep it as short as possible to reduce the potential of back-pressure... In fact on recent builds I even trim down my fittings to reduce weight and to allow for components to be more compact... The components just need to be adequately sealed for vapor, not to be hidden within walls for 100 years sustaining moderate water pressure...

[baron4406]

Rad packs his to the vapor tube throat and that's what I do too. The upper packing works to slow the vapor down and create turbulence, because its contacting the wall of your condenser tube it also gets cold and acts like a huge condenser. It works amazingly well. Such a simple thing too.

The last concentric I built only has the top half of the vapor chamber filled with SS scrubber and it works perfectly... That way more vapor gets drawn directly to the chamber wall before any of the packed section is utilized, further increasing its knockdown capability...

Ok Rad on my next run I'm gonna only pack the top half of the condenser tube and see how it goes. It still boggles my mind how well this design works. When my 12" section of 2.5" gets here I'm gonna build a 3" column one. Might as well push the envelope and see how far I can push the design. BTW I'm using copper scrubbies, any reason your using stainless? Better? Convenience?

[rad14701]

Ok Rad on my next run I'm gonna only pack the top half of the condenser tube and see how it goes. It still boggles my mind how well this design works. When my 12" section of 2.5" gets here I'm gonna build a 3" column one. Might as well push the envelope and see how far I can push the design. BTW I'm using copper scrubbies, any reason your using stainless? Better? Convenience?

Yes, it is a very impressive concept and works far better than I ever expected... I think it can be pushed as far as structured packing will allow... I still want to make one with multiple staggered downward facing slant plates instead of structured packing...

I use SS scrubbers because they are more readily available and last longer than copper...

[baron4406]

Cool lets just keep this going, I like the copper packing simply because it transmits heat/cooling better than stainless. However the design of using packing as a condenser is so darn efficient it probably doesn't matter what you use. I'm done with copper coils, I can't believe how I struggled with my 2" offset head still last year to knock down all the vapor. With this still its hard getting the water to flow slow enough, i like the top to be cool but the takeoff to be hot. That's why I'm making the 3" shorter than the 2".

[Raw22]

I had twins. They are based on rads apartment still and have concentric condensers.

And yes I know the output condensers are massive for these tiny stills, the copper was already cut to that length and it was free so I didnt change them. Still need to add some reinforcing due to the length of the takeoff condensers.

The large gap in between the head and the take off condensers, is so that I can add needle valves in the future if wanted.

[baron4406]

Ok first 1.5 (or 2.0) run on my 2" concentric rig. Basically a stripped wash added to my typical 6 gallon run (feints go in the strip run). Last run was a single run without any feints. Fired up, refluxed for about 30 minutes, then pulled off fores-heads a 1-2 drops/sec. Compression is very good about 200ml into the run I'm into clean hearts. Then tried hybrid style but still didn't wanna play.......finally set the output to a steady stream (about the rate my pot runs) and column stayed rock steady for an hour, got about 1500ml of 90% then finally column temps stated going up and abv's dropped slowly. Might have to run a little faster output it just stayed at 90% for awhile. Hit tails about 205 deg and 65% abv. Easy to tell output just basically shut off. Opened up the needle , turned up the water/heat and collected down to 208deg/45%abv. I like to go lower but wife wanted to go shopping. Tails are immediately cloudy too. Amazing. My pot still way of making whiskey can't be applied here, there isn't enough good tails to dilute anything. Good head and tails compression? Wash was Odin's rye bread whiskey and even the 90% is full of flavor.
I said it once and I'll say it again, these stills are so efficient they don't need to be very long. Even when running mine hard in tails its ice cold about 3 inches above the output in a tiny trickle of water, its why my 3" rig is gonna be shorter. My column is too short to get above 90%, another 12 inches and it would be perfect.

[rad14701]

baron4406, you are right about the efficiency... I'm still surprised every time I do a run...

As for the %ABV of the run, you could either run faster or remove some structured packing from your column if you want more flavor... Play with it some more and see how fast you can bump the take off rate before you start smearing tails into the hearts and then back it down a bit... Remember, part of the official whiskey guidelines is that spirits should come off at 80% or lower and anything above that would be considered feints by our simple four cuts definition...

Keep experimenting...

[baron4406]

You got it Rad I'm still playing with my run method, I run 4 rolls of packing so I'm gonna remove two rolls and try to up the output too. I just wanna find the perfect ratio of reflux/heads/fores separation and ABV. Might be a little while for my next run tho, holiday + anniversary coming up next two weekends. Next wash will be a cornflake/rye bread/DME mix that was made with 30% dunder from my first rye run.

Still waiting on my 2.5" pipe, company shipping it must be using rowboat.

[Pyewacket]

I just had a birthday. Now, usually as a family we do something insanely girly...my daughter was born on my birthday. It has been barbie/disney themes for 16 years. This year she ditched us...and spent the day at the mall with her friends. My wife turned to me and said..."well, what do you want to do for your birthday". I was a bit surprised, so I said that I would like to build another still. She limits the time I spend in my garage for such projects. Being my birthday, how could she say no? She asked me why on earth would I need another one. I told her I just want to video tape the process -- Involved in helping some folks with oil extraction needs and they wanted some tips on a simple compact still head they could use. ...She rolled her eyes and conceded. I guess this will be a backup still lol.

Anyway...this a 1inch version. I just repeated the process with some minor changes that I built a year ago. I am not concerned with running this as anything but a pot still, I excluded the distillate centering concept. The boiler is for reclaiming dissolved oils from within a high ABV solution; this is why there is a thermometer way down low. I did rush things a bit, but it turned out fine. The video is basic... for folks with limited knowledge on such things. Most of these folks are using airstills, or horrible homemade apparatus' with unsavory building materials and techniques. Thought I would post it here for fun...also included how I attached the cap to the SS bowl.
http://youtu.be/jN2PJZLaeGw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[baron4406]

I've been off these boards for awhile, currently my computer time is for a major life/career change. Instead of games/message boards...... its HTML.CSS,Javascript, Jquerty, Python,PHP,etc. Anyway.......a 3" version ( 3 x 2.5 x 2) is built. Its short about 15 inches total, 3" condenser section is only about 9". Its soaking in Star San right now. It will be run on a 24" column (low ceiling) on my new electric setup. Everything is on sanitary fittings, so if i wanted a longer column i could have one.

Wife is drinking all my whiskey, i need a faster still...

[Doogie]

Finally ran the concentric in reflux mode today to turn a birdwatchers into vodka - worked great - hearts averaged around 88% down to 84% and a 20gal wash spit out 3L on that percentage. Built a 2,1.5,1 version of this at 24", worked fine, easy to control, packed with stainless steel packing. have been running it for about 2mths now as a potstill. Nice design, easy to run, and versatile ...

[lampshade]

...this a 1inch version. I just repeated the process with some minor changes that I built a year ago. I am not concerned with running this as anything but a pot still, I excluded the distillate centering concept. The boiler is for reclaiming dissolved oils from within a high ABV solution; this is why there is a thermometer way down low. I did rush things a bit, but it turned out fine. The video is basic... for folks with limited knowledge on such things. Most of these folks are using airstills, or horrible homemade apparatus' with unsavory building materials and techniques. Thought I would post it here for fun...also included how I attached the cap to the SS bowl.
http://youtu.be/jN2PJZLaeGw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Great video, Pyewacket !!! It should be in the "New distiller reading Lounge".

One suggestion: If you ever edit your YouTube video, I think it would be helpful to elaborate more at the beginning about your design. You show a brief picture with callouts to the parts of your still. However, this picture is displayed for only a few seconds, which doesn't allow the viewer enough time to grasp your design. I would suggest spending more time, at the beginning of the video, explaining each part of your still. That way, the viewer can understand what you are building during the rest of the video.

I understand your design, since I built a similar concentric last year http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=34160. But, I don't think that "folks with limited knowledge" grasp what it is you are building.

[Pyewacket]

Heya Lamp,

You are definitely correct. I modified the video a bit. I think part of the problem is my lack of skill at creating tutorials, and that this still is a bit counter-intuitive. I remember mulling over this concept for several hours before I really understood what was going on. Here is a link to the newly uploaded video where I added a bit more information (per your advice) at the beginning and the end. Originally, I posted this video to help some folks overcome some major problems with their harebrained apparatuses. The initial posting on that site had some additional information, along with personal messages etc...

Here is a link to the new video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z29Ci97ixRg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Roundyround]

is there any updates on this configuration. thinking about building a LM/VM 3" packed column an thought about using 2" shell concentric instead of double wound 1/4 inch for reflux side.

[longhaul]

A question for Rad; when you pack the upper half of the vapor tube, do you use anything to hold the packing in place, or is it tight enough in a small tube to not slip down?

[rad14701]

A question for Rad; when you pack the upper half of the vapor tube, do you use anything to hold the packing in place, or is it tight enough in a small tube to not slip down?

Because mine uses 1" for the vapor chamber a stretched out SS scrubber stays in place just fine... Larger bores may require something to hold the packing in place...

[longhaul]

Thanks Rad for that info, which leads me into a couple more questions. I am working on my first still build and I am really fascinated with your concentric pot/reflux design. I am mostly a pot still kind of imbiber, bourbon and rum; but I want to be able to make a decent neutral for making liqueurs for the wife. I am starting with a 13 quart boiler. I can strip a 5 gal wash in 2 runs, save up the low wines for a spirit run, but still use it on the stove top. Thanks for your patience, now the questions. Will the tube dimensions of your column work with this size boiler? And now the technical one. I noticed in your pics that you coiled the 12 ga wire used in place of a reducer all the way through the cooling jacket. SInce that wire is to take up the space between the two tubes, the water must follow the coil pattern around the vapor tube. I assume this increases the cooling effects of the water flow, but is there a set dimension for the spacing between the coils, as I am sure that spacing would alter that cooling effect?