SPP Machine Begins

[DAD300]

In 3" x 36" I get a couple of extra cups in by settling it in, bouncing it on the floor, gently...

With 48" you will be able to fly humbledore...

[johnarms]

wish I wouldnt have change everything in one go. new dephleg, new cooling arrangement, new sight glass, new gaskets.... new leaks! losing loads of vapor. still producing 90+ percent but a waste of a run. 400ml 92% in 19 minutes, after 200mls of fores dumped.

[BigSwede]

I appreciate the tests and results, good or bad. The stuff I've been sending out is about 6.4mm. If better results are obtained when compacted, to me it would indicate a smaller SPP would be appropriate.

Then there's the whole "fluidized bed" phenomenon. Maybe Dad300 can comment, but it may be that a higher heat input w/SPP vs other materials might generate the partially flooded state that SPP seems to like, with the added benefit of greater throughput - more BTU's, faster process, so long as the packing does its job.

I'm a big boy, no one is going to hurt my feelings. This process is science and art combined, and no progress can be made without open, public results.

[humbledore]

I may not exactly understand the dynamics of a 3" column since I've only run 2", but my understanding that purity (ABV) is driven by column height, and takeoff speed by diameter. If Dad300 is getting azeo of a 3"x36" I would say there has to be some difference in the SPP formation, diameter, or spacing because there is no way I am getting azeo from a 2"x36" column. So maybe Dad can post a link to the thread in which he made SPP for comparison purposes, I can't find it right offhand. But I seem to remember there was no spacing between each turn of SPP and with BigSwede's there is some spacing. Maybe that's a factor?

[DAD300]

The dia vs height thing isn't just SPP. I can get azeo from a 3" x 36" column stuffed with SS Scrubbers also. Something good HETP happens with the dia increase. Even the home calculators say so.

Calculator says a 2" x 36" packed with scrubbies will have 8.3 plates and a 3" x 36" will have 9.5...so the width has a positive affect on HETP also. And I believe it. Amazingly those HETP and reflux calculators have always been dead on for me.

I used these charts and the laboratory commercial version sold today as examples...

More closed gets smaller HEPT at the sacrifice of throughput. Russians and Odin design is more open...takes more power & reflux to to aquatic.

But remember...all of these are still 4x better HETP of mesh/scrubbers. Every SPP above is a plate per 1" vs 4.5" with mesh.

I also have made the more open version...it just runs a little dif. It takes more power and more reflux to get the aquatic state with the more open SPP.

I can get almost two liters an hour takeoff from a 2" x 30" (2" of scrubbie, 24" of SPP and 2" of scrubbie) at azeo with SPP...that's 24+ plates guys, using the smallest in this pic.

What have you got at the bottom and top for retainers humbledore? I can't remember...but spreading the reflux at the top is very important. And if your reflux is too cold it will just set on top and flood. Flood the top, not the whole column.

On the larger sizes...having a restrictive retainer on bottom seems to be as important. My 4" is failing on a keg and gas burner...I can hear reflux dropping back to the boiler. I have to come up with a sieve plate for the bottom.

You'll know when you hit the flooded state...the column will be very hot and I hear mine sizzling inside. Scared the crap out of me for a while. I was waiting for the puke. If you get the SPP to flood out the takeoff, it won't be a normal puke, the liquid will be clear distillate. No cleanup required. Increase takeoff or back off the power and or lower the reflux if possible.

How many runs did it take you to go from pot to reflux? Might take a couple to go from reflux to SPP...

[Hound Dog]

Humble, when I was running a 2" LM 36" would get me there but it was slow as all git out. Using small lava rock.

[rad14701]

I can get almost two liters an hour takeoff from a 2" x 30" (2" of scrubbie, 24" of SPP and 2" of scrubbie) at azeo with SPP...that's 24+ plates guys, using the smallest in this pic.

SPP Three Sizes.jpg

I'm waiting for some SPP to test because, crazy as it sounds, I'm already pulling almost as much 95% as you, DAD300, using marbles in a 1.25" x 30" packed column... Can't wait to see how the SPP compares... If it can top 1oz/30ml per minute I'd be thrilled...

[humbledore]

Humble, when I was running a 2" LM 36" would get me there but it was slow as all git out. Using small lava rock.

I agree, I got very good results from small lava rock. 2" x 41" packed section pulled 94% with a pencil lead stream. Lava rock better packing material than scrubbies IMO.

[humbledore]

The dia vs height thing isn't just SPP. I can get azeo from a 3" x 36" column stuffed with SS Scrubbers also. Something good HETP happens with the dia increase. Even the home calculators say so.

Ok that is good to know.

I also have made the more open version...it just runs a little dif. It takes more power and more reflux to get the aquatic state with the more open SPP.

When I say more open, I mean open in terms of the gap between loops when looking at the side view, like the difference between a spring that is expanded vs. one that is loaded and compressed.

There is no gap here in this version of SPP

What have you got at the bottom and top for retainers humbledore? I can't remember...but spreading the reflux at the top is very important. And if your reflux is too cold it will just set on top and flood. Flood the top, not the whole column.

On the larger sizes...having a restrictive retainer on bottom seems to be as important. My 4" is failing on a keg and gas burner...I can hear reflux dropping back to the boiler. I have to come up with a sieve plate for the bottom.

You'll know when you hit the flooded state...the column will be very hot and I hear mine sizzling inside. Scared the crap out of me for a while. I was waiting for the puke. If you get the SPP to flood out the takeoff, it won't be a normal puke, the liquid will be clear distillate. No cleanup required. Increase takeoff or back off the power and or lower the reflux if possible.

How many runs did it take you to go from pot to reflux? Might take a couple to go from reflux to SPP...

Yes no doubt. I don't want to come off as saying SPP sucks or anything. Definitely I have not flooded the column, I kept waiting for the oft-quoted "sizzling sound" and did not get there. I could hear very quiet bubbling. So maybe I did not get a fully flooded state. I did upgrade my elements and have 4000W available. I tried to push it probably close to 3000W (no ampmeter). I have a heavy copper screen on the bottom, and stainless scrubby on top - yes I do pay attention to what you've written about how the scrubby may help the reflux to go deeper and not flood the top. I've never had a problem loading a column, I can load my experimental 4", to me that's more a question of plate design/% open thing.

Copper screen on bottom of column to hold packing

EDIT: to summarize, I did not get to azeo with my shorter column, but I was in the middle of building a new one which added a few inches, works great, and am perfectly happy with the results. For sure I am new to SPP and look forward to tweaking or adjusting to it. If I had an infinitely adjustable column I would love to play with it and see how short I could get it and still hit 95%+. But instead I just added a few inches. And am giving comments here on the SPP because BigSwede was asking (in general) for any feedback.

[DAD300]

Use the taller column and just put less packing in it.

I've run my 36" with half packed...run fast it gets 90ish.

[White_Lightning_Rod]

Ill add my review to Swedes SPP. I just upgraded from a pot still to a reflux. So keep in mind Im still learning how to drive the new CM. I built a 2" modular system that I am packing with Swedes SPP with lengths to go from 12" packed up to 52" but my current low ceilings have me running at 40" of packed section. All three runs I have done so far have been 11-12% ujssm. I'm not trying to reach azeo completely so I havent really tried to push it just letting it run wherever the equipment wants it to. Im leaving a couple inches above the SPP and also putting a SS scrubbie on top. Im learning to create the semi aquatic state that DAD300 has often stated without puking. (Which has also happened) Ive started within 2% +/- of 90% abv after foreshots have been removed, then hearts coming off starting at about 82-85% and ending around 60 to 65%. I dont have any experience with any other packing to compare to at this time but I can say I am very happy with the results of this SPP. I believe with a little tweaking Ill come close azeo with the current 40" of packing when I do try to push it to. If not when the weather warms and I can go to the full 52" of packing azeo will be another notch I can add to my distilling belt.

As always I am very thankful for the wealth of knowledge here I can honestly say there is no way possible I would ever be running the equipment I am now, just over 3 years into the hobby without the knowledge and In this situation also the advanced equipment shared on this forum. Thanks Swede again and all the others here for sharing.

[googe]

Good stuff bigswede, your skills are paying off for you, great to see, I imagine you like all inventors have reservations and doubts at how your product is viewed!. Making things progress is a positive direction is what its all about, well done for doing the hard yards and being determIned . Good luck with the future.

[BigSwede]

Thanks fellas, again, if this stuff is not a dramatic improvement over cheaper packings, then it makes no sense from both a labor and a cost POV.

The SPP machine has been well refined in that the new scissor cutter, when correctly tweaked, can eat through 20 pounds of wire without stoppage, and that is a miracle compared to earlier runs where I'd be lucky to get 2 minutes without a jam. I am at a point where I can leave the machine alone a bit.

I actually installed a wireless remote OFF switch to the machine, and I wear the dongle thing around my neck. My ears know what's going on, and I can mash the OFF switch if something goes bad.

Now, on the SPP itself - After hours in front of that thing, playing with parameters, I've come to some conclusions. These apply only to my machine, but I'm guessing others will behave similarly.

1) wire TENSION does little to change diameter or geometry. Surprising to me. I set it and forget it.

2) FEED ANGLE - this is the big one. By feed angle, I refer to the angle the wire creates with the mandrel as it makes initial contact. At 90 degrees, I get fully closed SPP. Just a couple degrees more (ex. the angle of wire to mandrel axis is about 95 degrees) it begins to open. More angle, more open. I can set it so that there is HUGE daylight, if wanted. It is completely repeatable and reliable, and I currently set it so that there is slight daylight between loops. Even have graduated markings on the wire feed just for this adjustment.

This may NOT be desirable... maybe closed is better. I don't know, until I can test my new rig with closed vs open SPP.

But here's what I've taken away from reading on this material here and other forums. If a guy has excess power available during reflux and collection, then SPP likes more power than say scrubbies. And with more power could come by definition a faster takeoff, all else being equal, if the operator cooperates by opening the VM or needle valve a bit more. If it comes with higher ABV, that is a double-plus good result (Orwell! ) Double plus ungood would be SPP having little advantage over other, cheaper materials.

Those with this stuff, please post results, hopefully good ones, after investigating it over more than one run. It'll definitely be different than other packings. I guess the same can be said anytime packing is changed... optimum parameters, running technique, are going to change as well.

And there's ^^ my daily HD novel. Sorry, I write too much. Cheers!

[humbledore]

BigSwede last week I took the time to read this entire thread which I didn't before I posted (I should have). This is an amazing thread, really, one of those that you find on HD from time to time that really make it worth being here. Not just your amazing build skills, experimentation, and great attitude but the input and knowledge from others too, great stuff.

One of the things that stood out to me was this idea of scaling SPP to the column diameter. I had not heard or thought of that. And now the wire angle creating spacing, very interesting. If I was able to make my own I would definitely do some testing on scaling (size of wire, overall diameter) and coil spacing. And power, as you mention. If there is a lot of spacing on the SPP wind, it might take more power to flood any given column, and the current SPP I have from you I think falls into that category (a guess). If I had my own machine I would try to make some the size of Dad300's smaller diameter stuff to load my 2" because of greater packing density. And I would make the coil spacing smaller or nonexistent and see if that makes it easier to flood the column rather than use more power. I was at 75% of full power available to me when I ran mine last so I don't have that much more headroom so to speak. When I hear Dad300 say he got azeo from a 2"x30" I know I have more work to do to get there.

Thanks again for all your work.

[BigSwede]

Thanks again for all your work.

None needed, I've had a blast. I think your thoughts are spot on. This 6.4mm stuff may be TOO open. I'm thinking a definite "crunching"/packing it down may be the way to go. No loose, floppy column fills. That, and plenty of power.

It may be like a new guy packing a 2" column with 5 scrubbers - more is needed. Pack her down.

I need to make a general announcement... I've sold SPP to maybe a half-dozen HD people. This is craft and hobby stuff for me, I'm enjoying it all hugely. And the $$ part, couldn't care less. I've been looking to simply cover time and costs and maybe buy a bit of copper.

What I want to ensure is that this stuff is a leap above other packings. If it isn't, then there's no point to it beyond experimentation, which is where we are at with this particular SPP. On my eBay ad, I mention "no returns of used SPP." That doesn't apply here.

Anyone who has purchased SPP from me, what I want is for you to have fun with it, experiment, get data, be happy. And post. And if it's no better than scrubbers, PLEASE let me execute a refund; don't want any back, I just want to hear about good results. Think of it as a "consulting" arrangement. Again, PLEASE don't hesitate to ask for $$ back, this stuff ain't cheap.

I'm not on a budget, I don't know of any other way to say it and not sound classless.

[DAD300]

I think you SPP is very good and I hope those that have it will learn to run it.

Shake it while filling the column and don't be afraid of the power needed...

[FullySilenced]

I am wanting some... and will get it soon i am hoping... excited about making really really clean neutral/vodka using a 3" or 4" column...

Keep working on it Big Swede.. and Happy Stillin to ya,

FS

PS: Do you think a 3X16" section over 6 plates would be sufficient or just say 32" of spp in 3" column no plates at all ?

[Hound Dog]

I think you SPP is very good and I hope those that have it will learn to run it.

Shake it while filling the column and don't be afraid of the power needed...

It will be a bit as I am a slight procrastinator but I have a 60 amp circuit in my garage and I just got two 5500w wavy elements along with the necessary components to proceed. Hopefully that will provide enough power to test it out.

[bellybuster]

60 amps and 2- 5500 watt elements just won't do........


don't know where I came up with this, must have been drinking. 2 - 5500 watt elements will cook damned near anything. Must have been joking so I added a smiley

[FullySilenced]

voltage times amperage equals wattage last i knew...
wattage divided by voltage equals amperage.... so how much of the circuit will he actually use... ????

and he will only run them both on heat up ...

FS

[Hound Dog]

Belly, I PM'd you but I did the quick calculation and came up with 50 amps if everything runs at peak capacity (which it really won't). 80 percent is 48 amps. 2 amps +/- close enough.

Sorry for getting off topic Swede.....

[humbledore]

Dad300, not sure how me putting 3kW into a 2" column is inadequate power when you run a 3" at the same. I will keep working on it.

[johnarms]

have had a couple runs with the SPP and a new configuration for me 3" by 40" reflux with 3.5 ltrs of Swede PP. I am still learning how to drive it. first spirit run was very clean seven litres at 88%, made some changes to the RC and column, did a little compaction and now running a sugar wash and am now up to 94+. Once I figure out how to run this effectively I will post some proper readings and information about my set up. I am pleased so far with the performance. Thanks Swede . I think you and DAD300 and Humbledore have it right. smaller size denser, makes sense to me empirically, when I was doing the first runs vapor would escape past my condenser if I had full power. I improved the condenser capacity and slowed things down with a couple scrubbies and a drop in bubble cap plate under the sight glass. got the aquatic thing happening. made a ten second video but no idea how to post it. editing again... after a couple.... wanted to sample for evaluation. I believe the Swede PP works very well (could be the sweet nectar of my efforts talking) the ABV of the first spirit run was lower than I expected, but was very clean, after the modifications I am very optomistic, I cant wait to do a full run best stuff I've made bar none. It tastes better than the spirit run I did yesty straight away.

[johnarms]

another run today, same wash with some feints from yesterday tossed in. its been sitting steady on 95%, loving it

[DAD300]

So johnarms....what's the take off speed? How many minutes a liter? during hearts?

[johnarms]

sorry was not being super vigilant today had a sparky doing some work in the reno and it was coming off slow on purpose. opened up a bit and take off increased with no appreciable decrease in ABV . This reporting thing is new to me, DAD300, what would be the best info to post? ....perhaps a standard form would be appropriate for posting here? I generally do time of start, time of boil, time of takeoff for fores, then time and amt of distillate (try to make it 500mls) for myself. I'd love to print out something to record my runs. newby learning

[johnarms]

near as i can tell its about 1.25 ltrs per hour. I'm sure it can be manipulated with power and reflux... just where I'm starting I guess. Two or three runs is not something to go by for me still learning from people like You... thanks.

[DAD300]

no sweat, keep a record of per minutes lites or quart...

[johnarms]

kept the spear... racking cane not condenser. from keg thread.

[BigSwede]

Hi Guys, just checking in really quick. The last week has been nuts, I was overseas for an extended period with sketchy internet, and back home, just crazy busy.

I have a lot of catching up to do with both PM's and posts. If you've PM'd me about anything, I appreciate your patience and apologize. Sometimes, life just gets super busy, and hobby stuff has to take a bit of a back seat.