Coyotey's ACME Rocket powered CM Still

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firewater69
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Re: Coyotey's ACME Rocket powered CM Still

Post by firewater69 »

StillerBoy wrote:Lots of work has been expense in the project, nice work so far.. and best of luck with your endeavor.. down the road, you will realize that the advise provide was well meant.. the CM is just a little better than a pot still setup or a glorified pot sitll at best with limited control abilities.. but one has to start somewhere, to learn and experience the hobby...

Mars
I would have to disagree with your comments on cm stills, they aren't the best for a neutral but I can run 180pr+ from my cm on a single pass but I don't, It's a great still for whiskey and rum. Maybe you've never seen a properly built cm?
Moonshine.... American as apple pie & it's part of our heritage, history & culture.
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Re: Coyotey's ACME Rocket powered CM Still

Post by Coyotey »

It's alive!!!

Rack one up for CM stills! It finally came together last week and after the vinegar run I have done 3 sac runs. This thing works great! - and sure enough fiddling and fidgeting was required to make it breathe properly.
Some valuable lessons learned and I do not regret for a second that I built a CM. Glorified pot still my ass!!

I wouldn't call it a hick-up - just a part of the learning curve I suppose - the 6" deflag is WAY too oversized. The tiniest trickle of water had no trouble knocking down everything (still powered by 2000W). On the first alc run it was running "all or nothing". Before the second run however I installed a second valve for the water control for the defalg. The first one was almost closed and this gave me better control with the second valve to finally tune it to run in equilibrium and was pulling off 93-94% at a thick constant stream :clap: I'm guessing that increasing the length of the packed column (now: 80cm or 1:15) to (122cm or 1:24) will improve this??
The Leibig condenser was perfect however and was able to easily control where the heat stopped and the cold starts along its length. The Leibig almost seems too effective too because I was operating it with the valve almost shut...just the smallest trickle of water!

So back to the drawing board with the deflag. I'm going to de-solder it (to save the ferrules) and keep all dimensions constant, except for the length: probably cut it down to 4".
I'll also invest in better valves to give more precise coolant control.

Got some different mashes bubbling happily away - so for now I'm going to keep on playing without modifications!
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Skål!
By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is the noblest; Second, by imitation, which is the easiest; and Third, by experience, which is the bitterest. - Confucius
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fizzix
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Re: Coyotey's ACME Rocket powered CM Still

Post by fizzix »

Help a new guy out Coyotey. Still designs just baffle me. Is the valve on the output spout deemed safe because the top of the still is open to the atmosphere (I guess with a condenser)?
Good work, by the way. Even if you still have to mod it.
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Re: Coyotey's ACME Rocket powered CM Still

Post by Coyotey »

fizzix wrote:Help a new guy out Coyotey. Still designs just baffle me. Is the valve on the output spout deemed safe because the top of the still is open to the atmosphere (I guess with a condenser)?
Good work, by the way. Even if you still have to mod it.
Hi Fizzix! Do you mean the valve on the bottom of the parrot? If yes... that's just for letting out the foreshots before filling up the parrot with the good stuff. It can also be open the whole run to by-pass the parrot.
If that's not what you mean - there aren't any other valves on the rig.

The still is open to atmosphere in 3 places:

- the valve on the bottom of the parrot
- the breather just above the parrot (this is to prevent the alc.meter from bobbing)
- the parrot itself

The very top of the column (the tee) has a tri-clamp holding an end cap. In this sits a thermo couple for controlling a PID controller - for running in pot-still mode. The more experienced distillers are going to chew my head off about even thinking of a PID controller. They're absolutely right by the way (I'm stubborn and had to try for myself). It's as useless as tits on a bull and just does not work. Too much temp variation in a still like this to be able to use the top of the column as a reference point for controlling the heat source. Oh well it only cost me an end-cap ;)

Skål!
Last edited by Coyotey on Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is the noblest; Second, by imitation, which is the easiest; and Third, by experience, which is the bitterest. - Confucius
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Re: Coyotey's ACME Rocket powered CM Still

Post by fizzix »

Gotcha. I was referring to this one:
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Re: Coyotey's ACME Rocket powered CM Still

Post by zapata »

Looking good mate
Coyotey wrote: I'm guessing that increasing the length of the packed column (now: 80cm or 1:15) to (122cm or 1:24) will improve this??
Skål!
Yes, and it's probably the easiest way. Only other options would be running a higher reflux rate (and slower collection) or improving your packing somehow.

I will comment that the diameter to height ratio is just a guideline. In and of itself it is not a measurement of any real phenomenon. The more relevant actual measurement is the number of theoretical plates you have. You should be able to calculate your HETP (height equivalent to a theoretical plate) for your column. Basically look at the abv you started with vs what you got out to calculate how many redistillations that represents, these are your theoretical plates under those conditions. Divide height of packing by number of TP to get HETP. Armed with your HETP you can calculate the additional column length needed to get the results you want. This is far more accurate than the d:h rato guidelines.

If you play with the numbers before adding the column extension you will see a very annoying fact. The first plate (the boiler is a plate) increases the abv a lot. The next one a little less, and each successive plate has a diminishing return on it's improvement. The height of column to equal a plate is still the same, each additional plate just increases abv less. By the time you are making 93% the next theoretical plate is only adding .5% abv or so, and the next plate even less! It gets depressing! But you should know it before you add your 50% column extension, find you only get 1% abv higher and realize you want yet another extension. This is why you find many people just give up at 93+% and accept it, fewer go on and are ecstatic when they can reach 95+, and fewer still bother to try squeezing the last couple of plates in to get 96+.

Practically, most people chasing a true neutral just go as high as the ceiling will allow, then make other adjustments that can reduce the HETP. The good news is rebuilding your dephlegmater shorter gives you room for another TP worth of column extension under your roof. :D
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Re: Coyotey's ACME Rocket powered CM Still

Post by Coyotey »

zapata wrote:Looking good mate
Coyotey wrote: I'm guessing that increasing the length of the packed column (now: 80cm or 1:15) to (122cm or 1:24) will improve this??
Skål!
Yes, and it's probably the easiest way. Only other options would be running a higher reflux rate (and slower collection) or improving your packing somehow.

I will comment that the diameter to height ratio is just a guideline. In and of itself it is not a measurement of any real phenomenon. The more relevant actual measurement is the number of theoretical plates you have. You should be able to calculate your HETP (height equivalent to a theoretical plate) for your column. Basically look at the abv you started with vs what you got out to calculate how many redistillations that represents, these are your theoretical plates under those conditions. Divide height of packing by number of TP to get HETP. Armed with your HETP you can calculate the additional column length needed to get the results you want. This is far more accurate than the d:h rato guidelines.

If you play with the numbers before adding the column extension you will see a very annoying fact. The first plate (the boiler is a plate) increases the abv a lot. The next one a little less, and each successive plate has a diminishing return on it's improvement. The height of column to equal a plate is still the same, each additional plate just increases abv less. By the time you are making 93% the next theoretical plate is only adding .5% abv or so, and the next plate even less! It gets depressing! But you should know it before you add your 50% column extension, find you only get 1% abv higher and realize you want yet another extension. This is why you find many people just give up at 93+% and accept it, fewer go on and are ecstatic when they can reach 95+, and fewer still bother to try squeezing the last couple of plates in to get 96+.

Practically, most people chasing a true neutral just go as high as the ceiling will allow, then make other adjustments that can reduce the HETP. The good news is rebuilding your dephlegmater shorter gives you room for another TP worth of column extension under your roof. :D
Thanks for taking the time for chiming in! That I believe is one of the single best and crystal clear explanations for this issue in this forum.

As they say in my language (loosely translated) "I got blood on my teeth". This means that I got a taste of how this set-up ran and I'm thrilled that it went as well as it did! It also means that I can't stop here. I think I might get slightly obsessive at this point;) First I'm going to do as you mention: go as high as I can without compromising the ceiling or the floor and run the numbers! I did some more measuring. The gains: 5-6cm by shortening the deflag. 10cm by stretching all the way to the ceiling. Packing right to the end of the ferrules and packing to right where the glass starts in the sight glass. No...not obsessed at all...no;) This gets me up to 100cm. I've also been drooling over an 8 gallon milk jug with an integrated heating element. This is 10cm lower than my pot and I can get rid of the hotplate (15cm). Then I'll be up to 125cm. That is a potential 50cm increase!

You were absolutely right about the need for precise cooling control of the deflag. I didn't realize how sensitive the deflag is. I couldn't believe how small an adjustment could give such a big effect. I definately need a good needle valve.

I need to get a problem sorted out with my packing (see my post in hardware).

Got a potent sugar ferment going with some of the nastiest turbo yeast I could find for a high start% for my next sac run. I should be able to run the numbers this weekend. (I wouldn't otherwise run turbo for anything).

Thanks again for your advice!

Skål!
By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is the noblest; Second, by imitation, which is the easiest; and Third, by experience, which is the bitterest. - Confucius
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Re: Coyotey's ACME Rocket powered CM Still

Post by Scorpster »

Looks like you could easily convert this to a VM as well, move dephlag to above the tee or use short pipe to add enough height for a wound reflux coil. I have similar setup but my dephlag has same inner diameter as the rest of the column, so I can just pop this above the tee and drop a coil down inside, maybe using the dephlag, maybe not.
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Re: Coyotey's ACME Rocket powered CM Still

Post by Coyotey »

20180117_210827.jpg
Imagine my surprise :wtf:

Skål!
By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is the noblest; Second, by imitation, which is the easiest; and Third, by experience, which is the bitterest. - Confucius
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Re: Coyotey's ACME Rocket powered CM Still

Post by zapata »

Cool, did you get the spp in already?
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Re: Coyotey's ACME Rocket powered CM Still

Post by Coyotey »

zapata wrote:Cool, did you get the spp in already?
No not yet the customs guys are probably standing around it scratching their heads as we speak ;)

I haven't done anything new except replace the packing with less magnetic SS scrubbies. I however filled the column right until the end of the ferrules and I really "hammerred" them in with a broom handle. The take-off rate (sure enough) was slower while I was hoverring around 96 - 96.5% - but nowhere near as sloooooow as I was lead to believe. Say 2 drops a second?

I can't wait to get my fancy new SPP packing from Poland - I gather that these will allow (among other things) for a faster take-off rate...

Skål!
By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is the noblest; Second, by imitation, which is the easiest; and Third, by experience, which is the bitterest. - Confucius
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Re: Coyotey's ACME Rocket powered CM Still

Post by Norbrewer »

Scandinawian here to. Love this thread and i am about to build a cm head for my still to. I could not see any info on power , can you share that info ? Thanks for saving me the work on building to large a dephlagmator. Goin for 4" now.
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