TIG Welding Clarification

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TIG Welding Clarification

Postby En Bee » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:40 pm

I’m working on my first build. I live in a small apartment so I don’t have a lot of space. Because of this, I am making a small pot build. I want to request quotes from some local metalwork shops on welding the ferrule to the cover (bowl) and I wanted to check here to make sure I am asking for the right thing. I don’t have space to buy and store the tools necessary to do everything myself so that’s not really an option for me. I don’t know much about TIG welding so this is all from what I’ve found in other posts on the forum and some videos on YouTube.
Here are the parts that I’ve purchased so far. I have also ordered some PTFE gaskets that I do not have yet. The large white sheet is PTFE that I have cut into a large gasket between the pot and cover.
parts_800.jpg


I am going to request quotes to do the following job:
Step 1Step 2
step1_800.jpg
step2_800.jpg


1. Cut a 2.0 inch hole in the top of the Stainless Steel bowl. I don’t know what type of Stainless Steel it is, but it’s 0.8-mm thick.
2. TIG weld the 316 Stainless Steel ferrule in the hole that was drilled using stainless steel filler so that the top of the ferrule is level with the surface of the bowl.
-- a. Do not use soft steel filler.
-- b. Minimize the amount that the ferrule protrudes into the bowl not to exceed 0.25 inches.

The things I’m hoping you guys can help me out with are:
1. Should I include any specific request about the gas or is that a standard thing?
2. Is not knowing the type of stainless that the bowl is made out of a deal breaker?
3. Is anything that I’ve put here incorrect or incomplete?
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby acfixer69 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:56 pm

That thin materiel I would solder, tig is too hot. Can be tig but why the warp in materiel will be a pain in the ass.

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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby En Bee » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:03 pm

acfixer69 wrote:That thin materiel I would solder, tig is too hot. Can be tig but why the warp in materiel will be a pain in the ass.

AC


Interesting. I didn't realize that was a limitation. Just for future reference, what would be a minimum-ish thickness I would need?
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby Oldvine Zin » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:08 pm

+1 - Also if your are paying someone to tig it, the money would be better spent turning a keg into a boiler.

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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby En Bee » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:12 pm

Looks like I'm ordering a hole saw and silver solder then! Pretty sure I can borrow the other tools from one of my friends.

Unfortunately I don't have enough room for a keg. At some point in the future, I'll hopefully have more space where I can upgrade.

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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby Oldvine Zin » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:15 pm

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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby En Bee » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:19 pm

Here's the kit I was planning on getting: STA-BRITE SBSK Silver Solder 3/64 1/2 oz STAR2000 by Stay-Brite https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0015H6JYS/re ... DAbDRVS616

And the touch I'm hoping to borrow.

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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby corene1 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:29 pm

ACfixer is correct . The stainless is only.8 mm. or roughly .030 inches. I have TIG welded material that thin, but the weld area will shrink a bit causing the lid to warp affecting the seal area. If you solder it I would recommend using Harris stay brite 8 and Harris stay clean liquid flux for best results. I have seen small kits available on Ebay. Sorry I missed the post where you used amazon. That is a good kit just a little less silver than the number 8 stay brite. 4% vs6% both good solders.
Last edited by corene1 on Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby Reverend Newer » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:33 pm

I cannot wait to see how this turns out, will be much more rewarding soldering it yourself, you've chosen a great hobby.

Best of luck.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby RedwoodHillBilly » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:10 pm

corene1 wrote:If you solder it I would recommend using Harris stay brite 8 and Harris stay clean liquid flux for best results.


+1 Absolutely.
Easy peasy. A small propane torch works well with this combination. It doesn't need much heat, If you have ever soldered copper (or electronics) it will come naturally.
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"and little Sir John in the nut brown bowl proved the strongest man at last.
The huntsman he can't hunt the fox, nor so loudly to blow his horn
and the tinker he can't mend kettle nor pots without a little barleycorn."
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby Oldvine Zin » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:12 pm

And another tip - I would solder the ferule on before you cut the hole, and then use the hole saw

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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby RedwoodHillBilly » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:15 pm

Oldvine Zin wrote:And another tip - I would solder the ferule on before you cut the hole, and then use the hole saw

OVZ


That's one way. I have the appropriate carbide hole saws and cut my holes 1st. I find it easier, but to each their own.

Another trick is to use kapton tape as a solder mask. Makes it neater. You can see a 4" ferrule that I put into JBC's keg for him. Stay-brite 8, Safty-clean and kapton solder mask. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=67834#p7490303
Last edited by RedwoodHillBilly on Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John Barleycorn must die.
"and little Sir John in the nut brown bowl proved the strongest man at last.
The huntsman he can't hunt the fox, nor so loudly to blow his horn
and the tinker he can't mend kettle nor pots without a little barleycorn."
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby En Bee » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:23 pm

Oldvine Zin wrote:And another tip - I would solder the ferule on before you cut the hole, and then use the hole saw

OVZ


I'm glad you mentioned this because I was wondering about it. Would soldering it to the top of the cover be strong enough? I thought it would have to be in the hole for strength.

RedwoodHillBilly wrote:
corene1 wrote:If you solder it I would recommend using Harris stay brite 8 and Harris stay clean liquid flux for best results.


+1 Absolutely.
Easy peasy. A small propane torch works well with this combination. It doesn't need much heat, If you have ever soldered copper (or electronics) it will come naturally.


I've done a decent amount of soldering electronics. Never pipes though.

I didn't realize the kit that I mentioned was different than the Stay Brite 8. I'm now up in the air between soldering and just buying one of those weldless ferrules. Partially because I could reuse it if I upgraded in the future. But also because it would be more forgiving with the tolerances of the hole. Only downside is that it's $40 but that might not be that different from purchasing everything I need to do the solder.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby RedwoodHillBilly » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:28 pm

I edited my post while you posted your response. You might want to look at the picture that I referred to. If it was me, I'd just solder the ferrule on and worry about an upgrade later. Believe me, this will be the least of your expenses.
John Barleycorn must die.
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The huntsman he can't hunt the fox, nor so loudly to blow his horn
and the tinker he can't mend kettle nor pots without a little barleycorn."
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby Oldvine Zin » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:29 pm

RedwoodHillBilly wrote:Another trick is to use kapton tape as a solder mask. Makes it neater. You can see a 4" ferrule that I put into JBC's keg for him. Stay-brite 8, Safty-clean and kapton solder mask. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=67834#p7490303


Painting a mask with white-out also works

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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby RedwoodHillBilly » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:33 pm

Oldvine Zin wrote:
RedwoodHillBilly wrote:Another trick is to use kapton tape as a solder mask. Makes it neater. You can see a 4" ferrule that I put into JBC's keg for him. Stay-brite 8, Safty-clean and kapton solder mask. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=67834#p7490303


Painting a mask with white-out also works

OVZ


Never tried that, but I have a lot of experience using kapton for solder masks. It works well for me. I'll have to try white-out and see how it holds up to the heat.
John Barleycorn must die.
"and little Sir John in the nut brown bowl proved the strongest man at last.
The huntsman he can't hunt the fox, nor so loudly to blow his horn
and the tinker he can't mend kettle nor pots without a little barleycorn."
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby corene1 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:49 pm

Soldering to the top will be fine provided you clean the area well and flux properly the capillary action will pull the solder clean through the joint and up the inside wall of the ferrule. I did a little test a while back to see how it worked and cut a cross section out. This is a copper to stainless joint but it works the same on stainless to stainless joints just make sur they are clean . Roughing up the surface a bit also helps.
P4200022.JPG
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby Oldvine Zin » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:54 pm

RedwoodHillBilly wrote:Never tried that, but I have a lot of experience using kapton for solder masks. It works well for me. I'll have to try white-out and see how it holds up to the heat.

Ha ha I've never tried kapton tape so can't compare the two - would love to know which is better

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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby SaltyStaves » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:00 pm

If you want some additional strength and the stainless is thin, you can pull a branch/dimple like this and it will be solid. The only problem is if you go too wide, you'll be scrapping it, or shopping for a larger ferrule...
pulled branch ferrule.jpg


It also gives you a nice little channel for the solder. to flow into.
pulled branch ferrule2.jpg
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby RedwoodHillBilly » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:17 pm

corene1 wrote:Soldering to the top will be fine provided you clean the area well and flux properly the capillary action will pull the solder clean through the joint and up the inside wall of the ferrule. I did a little test a while back to see how it worked and cut a cross section out. This is a copper to stainless joint but it works the same on stainless to stainless joints just make sur they are clean . Roughing up the surface a bit also helps.
P4200022.JPG


That's a good joint. I'd be proud to make a joint of that quality. Nice fillets on both the the inside and the outside of the joint.
John Barleycorn must die.
"and little Sir John in the nut brown bowl proved the strongest man at last.
The huntsman he can't hunt the fox, nor so loudly to blow his horn
and the tinker he can't mend kettle nor pots without a little barleycorn."
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby Badmotivator » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:23 pm

corene1 wrote:Soldering to the top will be fine provided you clean the area well and flux properly the capillary action will pull the solder clean through the joint and up the inside wall of the ferrule. I did a little test a while back to see how it worked and cut a cross section out.
...


Corene, this is awesome. It’s a perfect illustration of something I’ve struggled to describe using words. For strength and reduced chance of a pinhole leak, the solder can form fillets on both the inner and the outer sides of the ferrule, and the hole can be cut just where there is no solder, leaving a shoulder. For this to work best, the solder can be done first, then a small hole saw is used to open the hole, then a file or a small grinder is used to expand the hole up to the inner solder fillet.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby En Bee » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:25 pm

corene1 wrote:That is a good kit just a little less silver than the number 8 stay brite. 4% vs 6% both good solders.


I am able to find an inexpensive kit with the 4% silver at $13.49 but the cheapest I can find with the 6% silver is $60.98. Is it much of a difference or is the 4% good enough?
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby En Bee » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:22 am

SaltyStaves wrote:If you want some additional strength and the stainless is thin, you can pull a branch/dimple like this and it will be solid. The only problem is if you go too wide, you'll be scrapping it, or shopping for a larger ferrule...
pulled branch ferrule.jpg


It also gives you a nice little channel for the solder. to flow into.
pulled branch ferrule2.jpg
I wish I could get that dimple on mine but that's more tools that I don't have.

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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby SaltyStaves » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:51 am

En Bee wrote:I wish I could get that dimple on mine but that's more tools that I don't have.


I cheated. Ball-peen hammer and another hammer to drive it through (that is why the edge is tattered).
A machine shop could probably do it for you. Would be much cheaper than the tig welding you were preparing to pay for.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby corene1 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:55 am

En Bee wrote:
corene1 wrote:That is a good kit just a little less silver than the number 8 stay brite. 4% vs 6% both good solders.


I am able to find an inexpensive kit with the 4% silver at $13.49 but the cheapest I can find with the 6% silver is $60.98. Is it much of a difference or is the 4% good enough?


Yes staybrite 8 is a bit more but 60 dollars is way out of line. I only paid $32 dollars for a pound of it at the local welding supply store here. For your application the 4% should be fine.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby ben stiller » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:01 pm

I have a fairly heavy column on my inverted bowl so I bought a 4 inch to 1.5 inch reducer and soldered that to my bowl.
It really stiffens up the flimsy bottom of the bowl and has a ton of surface area for the solder.
If you go this route use only half the solder that I did. All of the excess solder did peel off and looks way better than my last pic when cleaned up. I used Harris liquid flux and soft solder. The reducer was really cheap at brewers hardware and I went ahead and drilled the
hole first. If using a hole saw on stainless use lots of water and go as slow as the drill will allow. If you see and smoke stop and cool
it with water. You do NOT want to work harden the stainless or it will be a bear to drill. I roughed both surfaces up with a die grinder and carbide bit to help the solder grip. Really proud of this solder job.Looks great and functions even better.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby cede » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:27 pm

Nice work Ben !

I forgot to call the supply store here for Harris silver products and copper brazing.
I will try copper/stainless tig on scrap parts and when I'll fail, I'll solder :) But I want to try this dissimilar metal with tig just for fun.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby En Bee » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:12 pm

Thanks everyone for the inputs on this! I went ahead and bought all the stuff I need to do the drilling and soldering. I'm going to go the route that OVZ and corene mentioned and solder the ferrule to the surface of the bowl and drill a smaller hole. I realized that this means the weight of the column will be on the surface of the bowl instead of the solder joint so that sounds like it'll be beneficial. I'm hoping to knock this out on Friday. I plan on taking photos throughout so I can show my progress.

I realized that I will probably need these same tools for future modifications and repairs so it made sense to just buy all of the stuff I need. Apparently I can't order the Butane for the torch from Amazon (or the internet in general) because of where I live so I'll have to swing by an actual store (they still have those, right?) and pick one up.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby En Bee » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:14 pm

ben stiller wrote:If using a hole saw on stainless use lots of water and go as slow as the drill will allow. If you see and smoke stop and cool it with water. You do NOT want to work harden the stainless or it will be a bear to drill.


I've read about people using WD-40 as a cutting fluid. Would this be useful or just wasteful? I'm guessing this is going to be pretty loud so I'm going to do it outside instead of in my apt.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Postby cede » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:31 pm

If you do not have cuting oil, yes this might do, but water is ok too.
This should not be that loud :)
Butane or any explosive gas need to be manipulated according to some rules.
One sold to you, you're solely responsible.
Any general store should sell some. In my tiny village I can buy some for soldering or bbq !
Hmmmm wiskey bbq ribs !
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