TIG Welding Clarification

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RedwoodHillBilly

Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

I use this lubricant and carbide hole saws with very good results https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003OAF8CI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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jog666
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by jog666 »

https://www.amazon.com/Forney-20858-Cut ... BDQPHW8WG4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

That is what we have at work for cutting fluid. I was drilling some 1/4" holes in 1/2" stainless this past weekend & never smoked a bit while drilling to fast. I did brake one bit & make another glow before my dumbass got the magic tap out.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by ben stiller »

En Bee wrote:
ben stiller wrote:If using a hole saw on stainless use lots of water and go as slow as the drill will allow. If you see and smoke stop and cool it with water. You do NOT want to work harden the stainless or it will be a bear to drill.
I've read about people using WD-40 as a cutting fluid. Would this be useful or just wasteful? I'm guessing this is going to be pretty loud so I'm going to do it outside instead of in my apt.
The material is thin enough that lubrication won't be as much of an issue as keeping the stainless cool. I have done several holes
in bowls using only water and going really slow with the bit. Won't take long to get through that thin stainless and no it will not
be very loud. I would not bother buying cutting oil for this one hole. I even have cutting oil and did not use it.

If your column is heavy think about supporting the top of it. My bowl was quite flimsy until I soldered the reducer onto it.
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En Bee
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by En Bee »

Looks like I accidentally ordered the 4% silver solder instead of the 6% silver solder. I thought I clicked on SB861 but apparently I didn't; I clicked on SB61. Will this be an issue or should I just go ahead and use this solder? I would like to just use this one.
It's an Aye-aye.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by ben stiller »

It will be fine. Go ahead and then post pics please. Also for others detailed account of what went well and or not so well.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by cede »

Will be fine don't worry !
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by En Bee »

ben stiller wrote:It will be fine. Go ahead and then post pics please. Also for others detailed account of what went well and or not so well.
Speaking of not going so well...I did pretty terrible with drilling the first hole. I don't want to say how long it took but it took me really long. I bought two 3/32" DeWalt Titanium Drill Bits and broke one. Once I figured out the right amount of pressure and speed (about 1/2 - 3/4 of full speed on my drill) it started working a lot better. Then I just had to let it do it's thing for a while.
firstHole.jpg
The hole came out centered pretty well so i'm happy with that.

The second hole was drilled with a Lenox 1 3/4" hole saw. The drill bit was slow but once it got to the hole saw, it tore through the stainless steel pretty quickly which I found shocking based on how slow everything else was. I feel like it started squealing right before I started to see smoke. Once I noticed this trend, I backed off every time I heard the noise change.
secondHole.jpg
Overall, the sizing matches up quite well. There's just enough lip inside of the ferrule for the solder to pull through and up the inside wall. I don't think I'll even need to grind it back.
holeMatch.jpg
I'm out of time to work on this today because how long I spent drilling these holes. Also, I ordered some stainless steel wire brush discs to clean the parts before I solder them so I'm going to do the soldering on Sunday. I have all the other equipment I need though.
equip.jpg
It's an Aye-aye.
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cede
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by cede »

Good job !

For rotating speed vs drill bit size, have a look here http://www.mytgtools.com/re3.php
The smaller, the faster :)
In fact it's a matter of linear speed. Each material has it's optimized cutting speed.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by En Bee »

Sooooo....I botched it. I think I had too much flux on it.
tooMuchFlux.jpg
I had it nice and centered though.
centered.jpg
To prepare it, I sanded it to rough up the surface a bit. Then I used a stainless steel disc brush to clean the surface. Then I wiped it down with Acetone. It looked good and ready to go.

I think I also may have had the ring of solder a little too far from the ferrule. My hope was that the heat would pull the solder towards the ferrule but the solder burnt up before that. Right when I was about to stop to clean it up and start over again, the solder started melting. So it did not come out good at all.
badSolder.jpg
Is this salvageable? I feel like I'm better off just starting over since it's only like $20 in parts. I cleaned it up before taking that last picture so that you can see how the solder only touches the ferrule in certain points.
It's an Aye-aye.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by ben stiller »

Looks like not enough flux and not enough heat. Where did you apply the heat? I would concentrate the heat inside the ferrule
through the top since the ferrule is so much thicker than the bowl. You don't want to burn the flux completely off. If this is happening
during the heating apply more flux.Also it does not appear that you roughed up the ferrule very much. If you look back at the pictures that I posted you can see how aggressively I prepared the surface. No problem salvaging this. Remove the ferrule and clean it up a bit
and have another go at it. When I did my 4 inch to 1.5 inch solder job the reducer slid off the bowl due to the solder melting on one side
first and tipping it. I just centered it back up and finished the job. Don't get discouraged you will get it.

Edit...Looking back at your previous pic I see a small butane torch. I think you may need something a bit hotter than that. I would suggest a propane torch with a mapp gas cylinder. Really not too expensive. Probably could borrow one from the neighbor and
buy the mapp cylinder at any hardware store.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by acfixer69 »

I agree with what ben stiller said on how to apply heat. soak the heat sink of the ferule first and it will draw the solder.
I looked at the pics of the solder applied and it looks to be a paste. For SS to anything I would only use a liquid acid/zinc such as https://www.amazon.com/Harris-SCLF4-Sta ... iquid+flux" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow A paste will burn and not work. This acid is a water like consistency not a sticky paste as in the pic.
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cede
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by cede »

Oh, looks like the solder was afraid of the ferrule :)
You can try to heat the ferrule and tin it at it's base, then place it on the bowl while still hot and melt the solder while still heating the ferrule more than the bowl.
Dont be afraid to put some flux on the ferrule for tinning.
If you're not hot enough you will not see the solder flow.
The solder should be "sucked" in the joint by the two pieces.
If it only flows on one side you're not heating enough the other side.
And try to avoid heating the flux directly, put the flame a bit away, heat will transfer through the pieces.
I'm sure you'll have it right :)
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by En Bee »

I applied the heat to the top of the ferrule probably about 95% of the time. I only touched the bowl intermittently to make sure it wasn't going to stay cold. The flux started to burn up and then there was carbon everywhere. The burning started with the flux on the inside of the ferrule. I didn't realize I could just add more flux onto it. I did buy the wrong flux though (in addition to the wrong solder). I'll get the liquid one for the second attempt.

On the butane torch, I didn't have the flame all the way up. Based on what I saw, I think it probably did get hot enough since the solder did start to flow but it seemed like it stopped from all the carbon. Also, I accidentally bumped the ferrule out of position when I tried to add more solder to an area where it seemed to pull apart. In addition to this, there was more smoke than I was expecting. All these things combined and I sort of freaked out and was worried I was just going to mess it up worse :wtf:. I was able to bump the ferrule back into position before everything solidified somehow.

I'll figure out how to get all the solder off this and try again once I have the right flux. Also, I'll rough up all the parts more; especially the ferrule. I don't think I'll have a chance to mess with it until this weekend. Thank you for all the feedback! It's really helpful as well as motivating. I'll post back when I have more!
It's an Aye-aye.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by En Bee »

cede wrote:If it only flows on one side you're not heating enough the other side.
That's a good point. I'll try to get it setup in a better position next time so I can hit it from more sides. I was basically stationary in front of it while I was heating everything. I didn't consider that they might heat up asymmetrically around the bottom edge.
It's an Aye-aye.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by heynonny »

I guess it dosent matter now but if you use silicon bronze rod with tig (technically its brazing) you get a strong braze/connection without actually melting your stainless.

-hey-
  
 
 
       Oh,look!! Its a hole in the space-time contuum!!
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by ben stiller »

Hey,

Do you have any pics of a joint done with tig and silicon bronze rod. Would really like to see what it looks like. I am in my
infancy with a tig welder.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by cede »

I guess that's what used VictoryRay on the sight glass weld here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=69691
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by heynonny »

I posted this 10 yrs ago, doesnt show the tig braize very good. I'll take some pics & post 'em soon.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8580

3rd pic down, copper to ss = silicon bronze to the copper fittings

the 2 stainless pieces are tig welded. The shape of the 2 bowls allowed for not having to use any filler rod.

-h-
  
 
 
       Oh,look!! Its a hole in the space-time contuum!!
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by ben stiller »

Nice work. Did you stick to argon or use helium? Any back purge on the welds?

Thanks

Edit. I apologize to the op for hijacking this thread. Really interested in learning all I can about tig welding as it relates to
this hobby.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by aircarbonarc »

First of all I wouldn't use that bowl, save that for salad. Might be easier to just use some heavy guage stainless sheet, hole saw it and I'll dig weld it for you if your in my part of Canada
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cede
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by cede »

ben stiller wrote:Nice work. Did you stick to argon or use helium? Any back purge on the welds?
I was told that no back purge was necessary as it is not melting the stainless / copper. It's more like brazing.
But I'd like to have it confirmed too !
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by acfixer69 »

cede wrote:
ben stiller wrote:Nice work. Did you stick to argon or use helium? Any back purge on the welds?
I was told that no back purge was necessary as it is not melting the stainless / copper. It's more like brazing.
But I'd like to have it confirmed too !
Brazing needs a back purge. It will have oxidation and carbon slang with out it.

AC
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by acfixer69 »

En Bee wrote:Sooooo....I botched it. I think I had too much flux on it.
tooMuchFlux.jpg
I had it nice and centered though.
centered.jpg
To prepare it, I sanded it to rough up the surface a bit. Then I used a stainless steel disc brush to clean the surface. Then I wiped it down with Acetone. It looked good and ready to go.

I think I also may have had the ring of solder a little too far from the ferrule. My hope was that the heat would pull the solder towards the ferrule but the solder burnt up before that. Right when I was about to stop to clean it up and start over again, the solder started melting. So it did not come out good at all.


badSolder.jpg
Is this salvageable? I feel like I'm better off just starting over since it's only like $20 in parts. I cleaned it up before taking that last picture so that you can see how the solder only touches the ferrule in certain points.
You never answered my question as to did you use liquid acid or paste?
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by En Bee »

acfixer69 wrote:You never answered my question as to did you use liquid acid or paste?
It was paste. I ordered the liquid one though so I'm going to use that for round 2.
It's an Aye-aye.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by acfixer69 »

En Bee wrote:
acfixer69 wrote:You never answered my question as to did you use liquid acid or paste?
It was paste. I ordered the liquid one though so I'm going to use that for round 2.
Post your results. If you don't go nuts with the heat, maybe some of the myth of stainless to copper being a difficult or impossible task will go away. It really is not any harder then copper to copper not that that's hard to do.

AC
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by En Bee »

Here's where I'm at...

I attempted to remove the ferrule from the cover (stainless steel bowl). I was able to get the ferrule off successfully, but in the process, the cover ended up warping. I know because when I sat the ferrule on the underside, it would wobble and I could see space in between it.
warped.jpg
So I decided to just order another bowl instead of spending the time removing the remaining solder, cleaning up the cover, and still having a warped cover. This time took much less time to drill the hole. Probably about 15 minutes total. It didn't come out quite as centered but I think I can actually use that offset for adjusting weight distribution.
notCentered.jpg
Then I cleaned and rouged up the surfaces and prepped to attempt another solder.
preppedFerrule.jpg
preppedCover.jpg
I actually did the job outside, but I set it up inside to take a photo of it.
setup.jpg
Overall, it's not pretty but it mostly came out OK-ish. I used a bit of solder because I was afraid of leaving a gap (which didn't help).
after.jpg
It's an Aye-aye.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by En Bee »

The main problem is that there is a gap on one side.
gap.jpg
The inside looks like the solder pulled through on more than half of it. It's kind of hard to tell in the photo, but the left side is the part that did not pull through. It corresponds to the gap on the outside.
inside.jpg
I think what may have went wrong is two things:
1. It was a little windy out side and freezing cold (like 62 deg F). I think this may have lead to the wind cooling the cover off while I was heating the ferrule.
2. It looks like maybe I was on a slight slant. It looked pretty level when I started, but the solder running away looks like this may have been the problem.

Can I just heat the side with the gap and add more solder? Is this a big problem? I don't think that edge is sealed based on the lack of solder inside the ferrule and the gap on the outside. I suppose it's not impossible that solder got under the ferrule and sealed it, but I wouldn't count on it.
It's an Aye-aye.
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by cede »

First, no cold draft !
Soldering outside is a real pain with wind drafts.
Slant or no slant, if the temp is good and the flux is well applied, the solder should follow the path, it's called capillary effect.
You can apply flux on the gap, heat mostly the ferrule there and let flow the solder. It should close the gap.
You can weld on the stove with extractor to take care of the fumes :) WAF might not be ok....
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by acfixer69 »

Hi En I can see that you are over heating at the ferrule and looks like the cold wind it cooling the bowl. You can re flux if and bring it i to a more friendly solder area without the cold wind you may have made.

AC
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Re: TIG Welding Clarification

Post by En Bee »

Got it! Last time I tried it, I used the paste flux and it filled my kitchen with smoke so that's why I went outside this time. To fill that gap, I am comfortable doing that in the kitchen since there wasn't much smoke this time and I won't be doing that much work. I'm going to clean it up a bit more and try to fill that gap now. I'll report back in a few!
It's an Aye-aye.
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