VM build - critique please

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needmorstuff
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by needmorstuff »

i can absolutely put the liebig on the left but to be honest I was planning on running the liebig straight down, is there a compelling reason not to?

the piece of pipe on the horizontal is there merely to allow connection between the sweat valve connector and the reduced.. it will be as short as possible.
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Re: VM build - critique please

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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by needmorstuff »

yes you may! is that you? and what is that in your hand and your mouth?
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

needmorstuff wrote:yes you may! is that you? and what is that in your hand and your mouth?
:mrgreen: that's not me / that's a guy from Ukraine and that's his steam-managed build

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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by der wo »

needmorstuff wrote:I have bought an adaptor that someone has made up - you fit the 76mm pipe straight into it. However (isn't there always a BUT) the ferrule seems to be brass so I will have to Tin that also

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173127369000" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

For the price of the reducer and the ferrule there wasn't a great deal in buying separate and buying this made one so I got the made one.

I am a bit concerned about tinning it though.. as when I heat it up to tin I an thinking the solder between the ferrule and reduced will soften.
Before tinning position it, that it cannot fall apart in case it melts. That's the only problem I think. And don't be over-ambitious to get a perfect layer at the first try.

And the brass adaptors 28mm - 1", I would tin them before soldering.

Play a bit with your new tools and the solder and flux and a few copper pieces before soldering your still.

Copper is a very good heat conductor. The size of the copper pieces will make a huge difference, how long you have to heat them up to soldering temp. Don't underestimate this when trying the first time to solder 3".
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by needmorstuff »

good point, i will position so that it isnt going to come apart.. from my experience with soldering components - once the solder had set if you reheated it to melting point again at a later date you would need to add more solder to get it to "flow" again.. or fear a dry joint. I guess this is the same for tube so i will prepare for this..

I will be mindful of it taking multiple goes to get the inside tinned fully!

the brass adaptors will hopefully give me some experience of the metal and how it takes heat and solder for tinning.

the brass adaptors.. I am going to tin the inside before soldering them. this will probably be the first thing i try.

for the 3" copper - I am planning on stacking a few house bricks around where i can to create a heat shield.. i will be patient though. i have read the soldering how to several times now. Nothing beats experience though!
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by needmorstuff »

So I got the SS corrugated tube. It is 1m long. Do people with these things advocate their knockdown power? it looks a little underwhelming to me.
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by kimbodious »

Weave in some SS pot scrubbers to fill in the voids and you'll be fine.

EDIT This was 72" of 3/8" (internal diameter) CSST for a 54mm column. The scrubbies provide sufficient friction to hold the coil in position. This is a reflux condenser so its job is to condense all vapour which drips back down the column. This coil would work fine in a 2" dimroth product condenser.
image.jpeg
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Is that a future dimroth?..

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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by needmorstuff »

kimbodious wrote:Weave in some SS pot scrubbers to fill in the voids and you'll be fine.
image.jpeg
Thanks - I will do.
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by der wo »

For me it looks small compared to what the most 3" have here. But I don't have enough experience with coils.
You will see, it would be easy to upgrade. Of course I don't have to tell you, that you should start your first test/cleaning run not at full wattage.
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by needmorstuff »

I thought that.. but then I look at theirs and I notice that most of them have 4 tuns then a lot of straight tubing... now I have 4 turns and granted not much tubing but I am hopefully with enough scrubbies in there as well that it will do the job.

You should tell me not to run at full wattage!

I will do my cleaning run with vinegar and ramp up from half power to full to see if it copes... then I plan on running some feints through it. Then I am going to finally make use of that turbo yeast I got with my T500 and run a good and strong turbo wash through it. I really don't want to go half measures with my cleaning runs.
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

der wo wrote:For me it looks small compared to what the most 3" have here. But I don't have enough experience with coils.
You will see, it would be easy to upgrade. Of course I don't have to tell you, that you should start your first test/cleaning run not at full wattage.
Isn't it worth calculating the def[legmator] before building it? Talking about the vapor managed column I'd get it to recover 3/4 of the maximum heating power.

And wut kind of scrubbing beard was mentioned at the pic as above? An attempt to hybride both cooling and reflux in a same section? Just enlarging the heat exchange area?
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by needmorstuff »

the scurbbie is meant to increase the surface area of the condensor to help knockdown the vapour. I think with the SS corrugated tube it is difficult to calculate the area so the calculators that are available don't work.. I could be wrong. The scrubbie beard thing are just plain old stainless steel pot scrubbers like you would use to clean a pot (pan)
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by bluefish_dist »

For 3" pipe 1/2" CSST works well. You will probably need more than 3 ft of it. I run a 24" long pipe with a straight pipe down the middle, then wrapped around all the way back. It will knock down 12,000w.

It does have some ss scrubbies wound in. They do two things, slow the vapor down and provide some resistance so you can get by with a smaller valve.
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

needmorstuff wrote:the scurbbie is meant to increase the surface area of the condensor to help knockdown the vapour. I think with the SS corrugated tube it is difficult to calculate the area so the calculators that are available don't work.. I could be wrong. The scrubbie beard thing are just plain old stainless steel pot scrubbers like you would use to clean a pot (pan)
Your corrugated tube has a length and 2 diameters ;)

The transcalency of stainless steel is lower than the copper's one but still it's possible to get it in reference books.

The fluid from your scrubbers will flow down the walls of your column and your vapor exhaust will be probably not so vapourous ;)

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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by needmorstuff »

I am not the first person to use the CSST as a condensor, I dont think I have read anything abut the scrubbie causing issues. I could always keep the scrubbie in the middle of the coil.

I will try it and see.. I can always get a longer one. What I didnt realise is that you can get the pvc coated CSST and just strip the coating off. I was limited until now with what I could find none coated and that is 1m long.
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by OtisT »

Scrubbiest or Mesh can serve another purpose beyond more surface area. Reflux coming off of a coil will often be thrown to the column walls. A strategically placed and shaped “beard” of mesh or scrubbie will give your reflux something to run straight down so that it lands on your packing for more effective Refluxing. If you know what a “rain chain” is, this is the same thing. In one of my stills, the beard also directs reflux past my thermometer as opposed to splashing on it. The beard should touch/collect from the bottom of your coil, and form a point that is centered a few inches below the tip of your coil.

I first verified the issue in my rig by putting in a sight glass between my reflux condenser and my packing, where I could see reflux dropping onto my packing. W/o the beard, most reflux was coming down the walls. After adding the beard, I could see a heavy stream of reflux hitting the center of my packing. :-). I’ve also used a small copper chain in the past to accomplish the same results.

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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

The reflux coming down the walls (as we call it "wild flegma") may enlarge the total area of heat and mass exchange. But in general cases it's not convenient. For the purpose to "center" the main reflux flow we make kinda separated loop or noose at the bottom edge of our def. And the coil must not contact the walls of a column...
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That's not to make you safe with reflux centering, though. The best way is to make a "skirt" (or circular shelf) inside of the column.

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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by OtisT »

VLAGAVULVIN wrote:The reflux coming down the walls ........ in general cases it's not convenient.
I only care if I want to get good separation when I reflux. ;-)
VLAGAVULVIN wrote:For the purpose to "center" the main reflux flow we make kinda separated loop or noose at the bottom edge of our def.
Here is the beard on my condenser that centers reflux. I ran with a sight glass below this and can see that the beard makes a huge difference for me.
Copper mesh beard on coil reflux condenser
Copper mesh beard on coil reflux condenser
VLAGAVULVIN wrote:The best way is to make a "skirt" (or circular shelf) inside of the column.
I like it. :-) Would love to see some examples. Can you point me to any threads or do you have any pics to share?

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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

OtisT wrote:Here is the beard on my condenser that centers reflux. I ran with a sight glass below this and can see that the beard makes a huge difference for me.
It's cheap, quick and effective. And don't forget to clean or replace this rusty tow ;)
OtisT wrote: I like it. :-) Would love to see some examples. Can you point me to any threads or do you have any pics to share?
I was trying to find and attach it yesterday... but in vain. Sorry for the mess like that:
hemimembrane with bent petals
hemimembrane with bent petals
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by needmorstuff »

looks like a .....
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by OtisT »

VLAGAVULVIN wrote:.... The best way is to make a "skirt" (or circular shelf) inside of the column.
Here is my version of the skirt. This one only fits/works at a tri-clamp connection location. The ring just fits, with some force, through my ferrule into the column. After packing the upper column, I insert this screen, pointy side down. The outer ring collects liquid from the ferrule/column lip and directs it to run down the copper screen to the tip where it drips into the center of the column. Vapor passes freely through the screen on the way up.
Column liquid redirection screen
Column liquid redirection screen
Column liquid redirection screen
Column liquid redirection screen
It works well, but only where there is a ferrule lip to attach this to. I have designes on making something that I can insert mid column. If I can’t figure out a mid column solution, I may just cut my column extension in two and use one more of these.

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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

A good solution, and looks neat :thumbup:

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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by OtisT »

needmorstuff wrote:i can absolutely put the liebig on the left but to be honest I was planning on running the liebig straight down, is there a compelling reason not to?
In most cases, length makes running a Liebig at a slant necessary. I’m sure it will work straight down too, so long as it all fits in your space. I have read reasons for the slant, but don’t recall the thread and I can’t vouch for the source. I’ve always run them this way and have not really questioned it since starting. As I recall, the reason given for a slant went something like this: the vapor don’t care, but the liquid may. The slant helps continue to cool liquid as it runs down the condenser. More important to me is that the stream is consistent (visually) with the slanted condenser, but not when it is straight down. The slant makes visually gauging your output rate possible by judging the size of the stream.

Not sure how much difference this really makes. I would personally miss not having a consistent stream to see. I use the stream as a check/balance (sanity check) to know that I am producing at the rate I am expecting.

Just MHO. Best of luck.
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by needmorstuff »

gotcha, yes I also like the constant stream from my current, it's condensor is straight down but then there is an outlet that is at an angle..
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Re: VM build - critique please

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all built, not by me though. I got the keg to column adaptor and it was slighly missaligned so thought I would straighten it up.. I completely ruined it. Know your limits.. I went into far too big a project for my first attempt at soldering.

So I commissioned the guy behind distillingdominoes to build it for me using my plans and parts. He did a great job.

Did the cleaning run today and got ready for the sac run tomorrow. I was a bit scared of it at first due to the massive increase in size over the t500 but after the cleaning run it's just another still.. just bigger. I have never run a VM before so the sac run will hopefully give me some knowledge.

I got Ian to build in some triclamp sections for me.. I can now remove the long section of the column (that's packed with spp) and attach another 300 mm section in its place as a gin basket or using the same configuration run in pot still mode by closing off the top (there's a tri clamp up there too) with my blanking plate.. I am either going to fit a pressure release valve for that or drill a big hole and use a natural cork.
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by kimbodious »

Very tidy still :thumbup: Are you controlling the reflux by raising or lowering the RC coil? If you are then you wouldn't even need the valve. If you aren't controlling the reflux by moving the RC coil then you woukd benefit from having a valve controlling the amount of water going through the RC coil
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Re: VM build - critique please

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I haven't actually controlled reflux yet, I only have 4.4kw so the valve for the sacrifical run was wide open and only running at 2.2 litres per hour at aezo. So other than compressing heads the valve will be of no use.. but that was the primary reason for it so I am fine with that.

The cooling system is hooked up to an outside tap so the "valve" is the tap. A closed loop cooling system build is for another day. I think I would like a flow meter or at least a wheel to see water flow.
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Re: VM build - critique please

Post by kimbodious »

An inline tap on the coolant return of the RC will allow you to make and observe the effects of fine scale adjustments when running your still. If you're not operating your valve on the offtake during the main part of the run you'll be operating your still then as a CM and just like the T500 you'll need fine control of the RC.
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