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Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:49 am
by still_stirrin
Cletus,
I’ve found that I can “fill” those solder pockets by heating with a very fine pencil tip Mapp-oxygen torch. The torch has a higher temperature than a simple Mapp torch because of the oxygen boost. Adjust the flame to a good blue tip and gently swirl around the solder where the hole is. As the solder softens, it will fill in the gap. Work the tip quickly so as not to fully liquify the solder...small areas, moving quickly.
This also works to smooth fillets too. But you have to pay attention to the solder and move the heat away as the solder melts. Swirling the flame tip helps control the focus of the hot flame so the heat is more distributed (reducing the liklihood of the solder melting and running away).
The advantage of the very fine flame tip is that the solder will quickly cool to below its melting point as you pull the flame away. It takes a little practice, but it’s easily learned if you have the right tools. It is similar to the way you manupulate the puddle when welding. And you won’t have to grind off as much excess solder when you’re done either.
ss
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:59 pm
by Cletus_Spuckler
still_stirrin wrote:Cletus,
I’ve found that I can “fill” those solder pockets by heating with a very fine pencil tip Mapp-oxygen torch. The torch has a higher temperature than a simple Mapp torch because of the oxygen boost. Adjust the flame to a good blue tip and gently swirl around the solder where the hole is. As the solder softens, it will fill in the gap. Work the tip quickly so as not to fully liquify the solder...small areas, moving quickly.
This also works to smooth fillets too. But you have to pay attention to the solder and move the heat away as the solder melts. Swirling the flame tip helps control the focus of the hot flame so the heat is more distributed (reducing the liklihood of the solder melting and running away).
The advantage of the very fine flame tip is that the solder will quickly cool to below its melting point as you pull the flame away. It takes a little practice, but it’s easily learned if you have the right tools. It is similar to the way you manupulate the puddle when welding. And you won’t have to grind off as much excess solder when you’re done either.
ss
Thanks SS, that is really good advice. I will practice this out on some scrap and see if I can master it.
The big difficulty I have created for myself is, getting enough heat into the piece, as I am using hard/silver solder despite not owning an acetylene torch. Will this technique work with 5% silver solder on 4" copper?
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:12 pm
by Cletus_Spuckler
I should have bought an oxy/acetylene torch years ago, as this would have saved so much time and money over a fairly short period. Instead, I purchased a Primus 1" propane burner; then a while after a Bernzomatic TS8000; followed by a Bromic Mapp/Oxy. Whenever soldering anything not tiny, I have to use all three (I get a friend to hold two torches)! In this photo, I also have a double burner camp stove in use!!!
As anyone who has ever owned a Mapp/Oxy torch will attest, they are bloody expensive to run (we're talking the $100+ /hour range) due to the cost of the disposable oxygen cylinders.
I now connect mine to a standard oxygen tank (Bunning's in Aussie sell a Size D oxygen refill for $70 + a refundable $200 deposit on the tank); via a new regulator and a hose adapter I got made up at a hydraulic hose place called ENZED. These are the connections you need if you want to do it (took me a long time to get this info):
Bromic oxygen hose connection: 3/8 BSP (right hand also)
Standard oxygen regulator outlet (in Australia): 5/8 UNF RH (right hand)
My hose adapter has a female 5/8 UNF (RH) fitting on one end to connect to the regulator and a male 3/8 BSP (RH) on the other to connect to the Bromic oxygen hose.
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:33 am
by Cletus_Spuckler
I have been planning out the four stages of my build so thought I'd upload this image of Stage 1 and 2 to better illustrate what I'm doing.
I'm reusing the coil, cold finger and liebig from my old 2" boka; and adding a jacket to the coil shell.
- Stage 1 and 2.
Blue = Packing (probably marbles)
For packing, I'll Probably use 12-14mm marbles. I read somewhere that 14mm is the best size for a 4" column. Anyone reading this know if 12mm will in fact better then 14mm for me? (I have read Rads marble thread a few times).
...and as a sneak peak; here's is where I aiming for with stage 4! The purpose would be to make super pure EtoH as fast as possible.
- Dont judge too harshly, its just an idea at this stage!
This is just a concept so Im not even sure yet it would work. I will be doing loads more research before I start building it (not in the foreseeable future)!
The sections down the bottom are different ideas for a reboiler; should one be necessary. Also, I already have the long 2" from my boka, which would form the connection tube.
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:25 am
by still_stirrin
Whew...Cletus....you’ve got some time...and money!
Looking at stage 1 & 2, I see no reason you can’t pull azeo off the still at an extremely high rate. All those plates with the added packed section will certainly do it for you. And your RC should be able to manage a powerful heat load too.
As for packing, I use the 12mm glass marbles in my 2” x 39” tall column (insulated, by the way). It produces azeo with minimal effort even at a low heat input (steady state is about 1.5kW). I start with a LM draw for the fores and early heads and then use the VM take off through the rest of the run.
For you, I believe the 12mm marbles would be better for 2 reasons....1) price, they’re cheaper per pound and you’ll need a bunch. The 2nd reason, 2) the open area between marbles is less, thereby increasing the surface area to open area ratio throughout your larger column. This will increase heat transfer from the vapors to the condensate, improving efficiency. More (smaller) marbles is more efficient than fewer (larger) marbles...how’s that for getting your “balls in an uproar”???
Man, I wish I had those building skills. Your system looks spectacular. Will you ever get to run it? Or, is this a business venture?
ss
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:19 am
by Cletus_Spuckler
Whew...Cletus....you’ve got some time...and money!
Haha, I do have time at the moment; just not the money. That's usually how life works right?!
Looking at stage 1 & 2, I see no reason you can’t pull azeo off the still at an extremely high rate.
I was getting pretty close to azeo (95.5 / 96.0 ABV - Im not sure how accurate my measuring devices are) using my 2" boka (1.4m packed with copper mesh).
I had two concerns with the old still. The first being one it took DAYS to operate! I would save up 4x 35l x 10%ABV strip runs so as to do a 40l x 40% ABV spirit run which took 3 days around the clock; then do that whole thing again with 4 new strips and a 3 day spirit; then combine the hearts and do a THIRD 3 day spirit run with 40l x 40% ABV of hearts. So; after 8 x 3 hour strips, plus 3 x 3 day spirit runs; I got enough vodka to last me over two years (about 40 bottles); and a burning desire to own a faster still!
The second problem is my paranoia that I'm going to go blind or make one of my friends go blind! Im pretty sure that after the above process, Im all good. But still, having 9 plates feeding into 1.4m of packed section would surely give me the confidence that I was getting good compression of fractions and that all the bad stuff was being removed. I was probably operating it incorrectly, but yeah, I'm paranoid and want to make the best I can.
Man, I wish I had those building skills. Your system looks spectacular.
I'm a bit of a perfectionist and like the challenge of trying to do things to the best of my ability. In saying that, I know to accept that I'm never going to get my easy flanges dead straight!
Regarding flange jigs; I reckon they work if the are machined accurately and are made of durable materials. My jig worked well for the first six flanges I made; but not so well for the last couple. I'm pretty much ditching it just trying to using an anvil (ie, a massive hunk of right angle steel I have lying around) now. Its not going to be perfect either way; but the freehand method is quicker and requires less stuffing around. As I hone the skill, it will be way better in the long run I think. Ill try both for a bit and see how we go.
Will you ever get to run it? Or, is this a business venture?
There's no money in this hobby! Well there is, but it all goes the wrong way! Hopefully I'll have it ready to take back to New Zealand with me next time I go and I'll run it there. The build stage is fun, but tiring. The operating stage is just fun!
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:46 pm
by Cletus_Spuckler
Im getting close to completing stage one build now. Just need to cut and fit the sight glass section, make a plate or small inline thumper and then do some clean up.
Sight Glass Tube
How do does everyone cut the saddles out? Ive got a 4" hole saw, just not a drill press (only a cheap handheld power drill). I would just clamp the tube down and carefully drill into with the handheld drill, but Im worried that the hole saw will destroy my tube (and finished easy flange).
I initially was planning to finish this jig off:
- The 4" hole in the jig would guide subsequent saddle cuts into sight tubes
That way, I can cut two saddles in one go, and I can be sure every sight section will be consistent. The big issue again, is that without a drill press, it is going to be very hard to centre the 4" hole along the centre of the 3" tube.
Am I over thinking this?
CS
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:39 am
by drotto
cletus,
very pretty build and you are managing with some tools less than perfect.
i've done alot of jig drilling with hole saws often without the centering bit as whatever i'm building sometimes need to be a solid disk.
on your hole saw dilemma i think you're in the right zone jig wise.
but centering the hole will be critical and if you aren't square to the tube you're in for trouble so a hand drill is not your best option.
consider asking around and finding a buddy with a drill press you can get access to so the initial hole will be properly centered and square.
failing that a carpenders speed square can help keep your work square.
set it up next to the hole preferably fixed to the jig and it'll help keep things true.
scratch that idea i decided to make a couple of pix and realized idea clearance issues so was unworkable.
better idea get a piece of angle iron and use as squaring jig.
better would be two forming a corner best would be four forming a box .
i had no small angle iron but pretend these flat plates are angle iron it'll get you the idea.
run the drill as slow as possible it's a saw not high speed bit .
also draw hole saw out frequently and dump dust, that'll help keep your hole round, true and avoid ovaling.
before committing any finished work to the jig i'd also advise a sacrificial section of pipe being drilled in the new jig.
perhaps a piece of cheap plastic pipe of the right o.d. would be available so you don't waste copper.
failing that make a wood tube and sacrifice that to see you're centered.
hope this helps
D
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:27 pm
by Cletus_Spuckler
Thanks drotto.
Thats good advice, but I think Im going simplify it and just use a pipe template, a hacksaw and sandpaper from now on, for reasons I will explain!
I was very successful in getting my 4" hole square and aligned on the centre axis of each tube.
After being careful to mark out the centre axis of the hole, I started with a 1.5mm bit and drilled out the first pilot hole, using two vertical rulers as guides;
I then stepped up the hole to the size 6.5mm of the hole saw pilot, in 0.5mm increments, correcting for misalignments as I went.
- the pilot drill exiting on the apex
I then started drilling the 4" hole. As the saw was not very deep, I had to pull the jig apart a few times to hack out the middle of the hole.
- drilling the guide hole
- so far, so good
All was going perfectly, I had finished what I set out to do... and then lost concentration and stuffed it all up by hacking out the bottom of the 3" horizontal hole!
- would have been perfect had I not lost concentration and trimmed the bottom of the 3" horizontal cut by mistake. F@#K!!
All was not lost, I did a botch repair on the jig and finally cut the 4" saddle through (my only) piece of 3" copper.
It did not end well.
Im going to use a tube cutting template now and clean it up.
http://www.harderwoods.com/pipetemplate.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Live and learn as they say.
- An unkind cut.
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:44 am
by Cletus_Spuckler
I had to do a lot of mucking around with the template builder as it would not export to scale. I had to bring all of the images into Adobe Illustrator and re-scale them.
Settings entered:
Main OD - 101.6mm
Branch OD - 76.2mm
Branch thickness - 1.5875mm
Join Angle - 90 degrees
Lateral Offset - 0
If you print this file at 100% scaling, it will fit on an A3 sheet (420mm x 297mm) of paper and work for 4" OD tube, with a 3" OD sight glass (90 degree angle).
CS
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:48 am
by Cletus_Spuckler
The file would not print to scale at the print shop for some reason unbeknown to me.
I ended up taping a piece of paper over the computer screen and just tracing over it. I had to first zoom in and out (using Adobe Acrobat) and measure the screen image with a ruler, until the image displayed at 1:1 scale on screen.
I taped the template around some tube and it seems to come together well.
- paper mock up
Tomorrow I cut!
CS
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:39 am
by bronctoad
Cletus I,m not sure how your attaching these (solder, brazing, silver solder. ect) but as a former pipe fitter
you only need a very little file, dremel or lite grinding to make those cutouts perfect. don't know how perfect
your shooting for, but that cutout puff photo would make a lot of welders I work with very happy to have
you fitting for them. don't over stress dude. your work is beautiful.
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:59 am
by Cletus_Spuckler
Thanks bronctoad! Its always good to get input and a bit of positive feedback!
bronctoad wrote:I,m not sure how your attaching these (solder, brazing, silver solder. ect)
15% silver solder (flanges are made with 2%)
bronctoad wrote:as a former pipe fitter you only need a very little file, dremel or lite grinding to make those
cutouts perfect.
To shape it, I was thinking I would use either a file, or a dremel sanding drum. Maybe use a dremel cutting disk to trim off sticking out bits.
bronctoad wrote:don't know how perfect your shooting for
Just close enough to work! I want to get a nice big 2mm of 3mm solder fillet on the outside of the join. That way I can grind back the inside cleanly without creating any holes (I tend to overwork stuff).
The big challenge is going to be not stuffing up my easy flange. Im thinking wet rags (these seem to burn real quick though) around all of the flanges; and some form of heat sink maybe - probably just sit the piece on some steel and maybe the steel bar Ill use to clamp the tee in place. Ill try and put the flame on the inside of the tube as much as I can as well.
Im going to use this method to hold the two pieces in place:
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:37 pm
by Cletus_Spuckler
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:43 am
by drotto
AAAArrrrgggh,
i screwed you up with the wrong advise.
there is a simpler way to do sight glasses though your final solution would've been what i did before i read dans posts.
when i read your post i thought you were cutting a hole into a complete , whole pipe.
my only excuse is i was tired.
dan's way is awesome and i saved it because it's simple.
it's a simple jig he made that makes perfect curved cuts on the site glass stuff.
even without a drill press i think it's very doable.
the pix you want to see are
"Cutting the bevel in the sight glasses"
"Making the sight glasses"
here's a link and my apology for not reading clearly.
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=21774&hilit=olddog+flute
you might consider reading the whole thread i am as time permits as dan also has alot of talent.
regardless you're doing excellent work and i am admiring your skills.
D
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:29 pm
by Cletus_Spuckler
Thanks Drotto, I did a search through the build threads on the search for 4" builds, but only got as far back as late 2014. Had I kept going I would have found that one!
It would be nice to drill out the sight glass saddles, but I think for now I'm just going to shape each one manually from a paper template. I should be soldering my first one together tomorrow.
CS
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:12 am
by Cletus_Spuckler
Perf Plate
Ive decided to put a perf plate under my column. A mini-thumper would have been cool, but I dont really have the materials for it right now. I was advised (on this post
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=70505 - thanks guys
) that you can run harder with a perf plate than with a bubble cap; and of course you don't need as much materials to make them.
So I went a head and started drilling, using my friends drill press which took 50 minutes (plus 1 hour of driving!). Had it on 660 rpms and used a 1.5mm bit. No problems whatsoever and in fact, I found the process quite relaxing.
In hind sight, have I drilled too many holes (270. if so ill plug them with wire or make the downcomer wider); and should I have left an un-drilled area under the downcomer (I will suspend a cap below the downcomer just above the plate)?
I still dont know if my plate is going to be 119mm or 106mm in diameter either.
- 270 holes drilled through template
Ive attached the template I used, so if anyone has tips for how I can improve this; Ill make some changes to it and repost.
Im guessing that it is a good idea to remove the bur.
- Bur.
Regarding the downcomer; I will flare out the top out to improve drainage; Ive also been toying with the idea of an adjustable height (probably by just sliding a 3/4" coupling over the top); and
I would also like to not have to solder it to the plate if possible (possibly by putting a thread on the outside of the downcomer and attaching it to the plate with two low profile nuts).
Has anyone come across some innovative yet simple approaches to these design features?
CS
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:22 am
by Cletus_Spuckler
Jacket Condenser
Im not building a shotgun as part of this stage of my build and instead, will be re-susing my coil and cold finger from my 2" boka (in conjunction with the new 4" LM head).
In the past, Ive had issues knocking back everything with these two condensers, so to improve this; I decided to convert the old 3" coil shell to 4" over 3" jacket condenser.
I just finished this today; so here is some info about it
I had some scrap 5/8" tube which I used as a baffle. I think it was used for refrigeration. I felt ok using it in this way, as it wont come into contact with my vapour.
- Opened out scrap 5/8" tube for baffles (its upside down)
To make sure the two main tubes were centered, I cut and soldered some 3/8" off cuts; then crimped them out until they were even widths.
- With top plate and spacers, ready to solder
For the top ring, I used some plate copper which I got from the scrappers. It was used for student art printing, so had some crude (bad) drawings carved into it. Again, I dont know the history or composition of this copper (might be some weird alloy for all I know), but it doesnt matter as it is not going to contact my vapour.
For the bottom ring/flange, I flared/hammered out some 4" tube, then cut 3/4" off the end of the tube and hammered this inward. This gave me enough OD for the 4" flange and enough ID to cut a 3" hole with my hole saw. I left a lot of hammer marks on this ring due to not having a plastic cover for my hammer head. Hopefully the flange seals!
It actually took me a few weeks to put all of this together. It feels good to have finished it though. Hopefully I wont need to muck around with stuffing mesh into the coil to get it condensing everything when running at full power.
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:42 am
by Cletus_Spuckler
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:17 am
by Cletus_Spuckler
Soldered my tee saddle on the other day. Not my greatest soldering experience, but after a little fix up (4 hours later - I got too much heat on my sight glass flange
), its coming together.
- Probably not the best way to set up! Any suggestions for improvements?
- You can see the stuff up on the left, where the flange started to run. Chucked a bunch of soft solder on there. I had to wait for it to almost turned solid, then push it in the gaps like putty.
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:28 am
by Cletus_Spuckler
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:48 am
by Cletus_Spuckler
Ive been tinkering away, and have almost finished stage one of my build. So much for thinking this would only take a couple of weeks!
- First complete tee section
CS
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:12 am
by drotto
these projects NEVER take a couple of weeks but the results last for years. keep lugging away!!
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:49 am
by Cletus_Spuckler
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:56 am
by Cletus_Spuckler
These three sections have been the hardest to make so far, but are now 100% complete. This is the shiniest they will ever be!
CS
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:05 pm
by Cletus_Spuckler
Thought I would use a wire brush to get my keg looking shiny, but didn't realise the consequences of not using a stainless steel brush. The whole keg looked great for about 10 minutes but then turned black and rusty.
Had a couple of tries top get it back and eventually got there with a 150 grit flapper disc on my angle grinder. Also tried a $35 SS cup brush which lasted about 15 minutes before it fell apart.
Anyway, its looking good now and the hard solder join seems to be strong (lets see what happens after I put 20kg of marbles in there!).
- Closeup of hard soldered 4" ferrule
- Shiny keg!
CS
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:13 pm
by Cletus_Spuckler
I have also just finished the vinegar and sac run and am happy that the still is working well.
I ran the sac run (35% ABV heads) at full power (4400w / 240VAC) with one plate and no packing. The still would equalise at 78.7oC which I think is about 88% ABV.
After opening the take off valve to allow a fast pencil lead stream, the temp rose to 79-80oC and ABV came out at about 85% - 75% ABV. Seemed pretty good to me, but I've never run plates so don't know what they are capable of. The best news for me was no leaks and complete alcohol vapor knock down at full power!
I still need buy packing and build a packing retainer; but despite this, In the fateful words of George Bush Junior; I'm calling
Mission Complete to Stage One of my build!
Thanks for watching! Hopefully I can make it to Stage 2 and 3
- Bath depth at 4400w / 240VAC
- Stage One operational
CS
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:47 pm
by Cletus_Spuckler
Stage 2 and 3 sneak peak (if I ever get there)...
involves completing my 4 tee sections; and converting my column into two 450mm packed sections plus a 300mm two stage RC.
- Stage 2 (left) to allow for flavoured spirits and Stage 3 (right) to allow for infusions of pre-distilled neutral
CS
Re: The Cletus Modular 4” Bubbler Build
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:44 pm
by Fart Vader
Beautiful build man.
Pencil pusher my ass!
Congratulations.