New Column still build

[MoonBreath]

I like it..Its real nice..Better be on overkill mode with your heat and condenser source..You look like you have well enough power.
Just a good theoretical, versatile, piece..
Ohh, and did I say it is MODULAR!!
Now I did..

[Tony1964]

Cheers MoonBreath, I have 2 X 2Kw of element power, so, should be enough mate, I've done leak tests and pressure tests on the cooling paths, for added security, I've fitted a Pressure Reducing valve on the water in take, its variable pressure, so, sometime over the next few days I need to run a coolant test and set the max pressure.

I will also be taking readings as to the maximum coolant litres per hour/min, my old/still current rig uses a worm product condenser, so, turn it on and thats it.

Anyway more work done last night, I'm running out of things to do whilst I await the controllers.

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

A couple of jobs done last night, as you would have seen, in Gin mode the parrot is fixed in its height, this makes product take off location easier for me, the rig is some 25CM higher at the product take off, a removable SS funnel and capillary tube can be put in place to take up this additional height, this just slots in to the tri pod. Easy job that one for once.

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

Gin basket finished.

The gin basket is some 1.5" diameter thin tube perforated 316 stainless steel, its on a hanger for ability to change mid run, the bottom is sealed and soldered on, again 316 SS perforated.

The vapour cannot hit the gin basket straight away, the vapour flow is forced through the 2 1/2" ports at the "Tee" junction and is directed downwards in to the gin sight glass section, a small reflux action will occur in this section, causing the sight glass to fill slightly, the bottoms of the 2 X 1/2" SSCT are capped with SS mesh to create smaller bubbles than a "glug glug" you would get if you did not do this, obviously as the temperature equalises in this area, the vapour will again start to rise, it has no where else to go but upwards coming in to contact with the gin basket.

I have a lot of experience with gin vapour infusing, as its the current method after a lot of design on my pot still and thumper arrangement, its thin and long, the more surface area contact the better and prevent a clogging of any pathway, some of the more "soluble" botanical s will find there way in to the sight glass section, and becomes a hybrid of vapour infusion and steeping, as the vapour bubbles through a botanical enriched bath, in essence creating a small thumper in a column still, the effectiveness we will see, i'm interested in any comments as to the outcome.

I like a thumper in line, its actually added safety indicator, if you don't see any bubbles you have a blockage, and this happens really early on, as even the cool air in the boiler on initial start up expands and bubbles through, if you see plenty of air/vapour bubbles, chances are your have atmospheric escape path.

This design will also prevent the issue of gin botanical s falling back in to the still as in essence is a one way trip.

The whole still is designed with as much safety I can put in, the main boiler is fitted with a pressure relief valve at 5 psi, I will also use this on shut down in gin mode to prevent the suction effect you get in the boiler when the gas pressure changes, turn the PRV and it opens the valve to external pressure, on my pot still this is a ball valve fitted to the top, its amazing how much negative pressure, therefore implosion risk you have with a pot still and 2 thumpers.

On the message of safety, I was reading 2014 posts on "computer Controlled Distilling" on this site and all of the resistance to it, in two forms really, you want to drive the still not a computer, and of cause, the safety aspect.

When I started this project, I must admit, with my background, I was going to go down the "Computer" control and install as much automation as possible, there is a mid ground to all of this, I have watched Odins I-Still videos, I have done work on the home brew side with control systems for beer brewing, I don't brew beer my self, I actually stopped the concept for automation on this project for many of the reasons that have been sited, I actually like driving a still, I'm all in favour of monitoring and measuring, this project has more temperature sensors than NASA put in the first space shuttle, but, I'm looking at them an learning, they are my rev counter, accelerator and clutch, I want control and make the mistakes.

This is totally different from safety, and some control on safety needs to be built in, one of the comments I read was if someone had a heart attack, or fell a sleep, this is to be fare a real problem, granted if you die, not actually your problem, but, fuses are there for a reason in power circuits, some don't bother, but, safety devices are there for that 1 in a million chance of the pressure bomb you are watching actually stops it self should there be an issue.

One of the things I will be looking at, will be a thermal shut off, the big issue I see it is the boiler, if I die during a run, and no one is there this will continue to boil to dry, no big issue the electric heaters will burn themselves out once they are not covered in fluid.

I will look at something to incorporate this unlikely event occurring, that does not need to be with the involvement of IBM or Siemens, its actually important and does concern me.

I still await the controllers to arrive and again I am away with the wife in our RV (Caravan) this weekend, so, if they turn up today, they are going to have to wait.

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

Update

3 of the controllers have just arrived, boom, job for Monday, just the 2 left to turn up.

Cheers

Tony

[Appalachian spirits]

Just curious but how much have you invested? Roughly. Thats a beautiful apparatus youve built there, very impressive.

[Appalachian spirits]

Just curious but how much have you invested? Roughly. Thats a beautiful apparatus youve built there, very impressive.

I aint a bootlegger, i just make shine

[Tony1964]

Appalachian spirits, around £900, when you consider the T500 costs over £500, I'm getting a whole lot more, the time costs to build is a lot, but, an hour here and there, sometimes more is your own time.

Regards

Tony

[Tony1964]

Had a few hours to start fitting some of the temperature sensors and a couple of the controllers, along with some switches, just to get a feel for the final view, taken the masking tape of the top half, I still await the AC power meters to allow me to view the power going to each heating element, therefore not touched the bottom section yet.

You can see a view of the rear of the panel, its all tied up at the min keep the cables out of the way, these will eventually need to be all wired in and cable run to tidy it all up.

But, not long now.......... he says......

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

Controller work over the last few evenings, some of the bottom half thermometers loosely in place, not fixed in place yet as still waiting on the power meters to turn up, there is no low voltage power to the front panel, as you can see the thermometers are alive, these can be switched off via a single power switch, they are being powered by the 2 batteries, and I have soldered power in to them instead of having to change those little pill type batteries every 6 months.

Most of the low power is done and cable tied in, I will continue with the high power side once the power meters arrive.

Next on the to do list is the thermal sensor panel wiring at the rear.

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

Hello again,

Further work done on the controller, the thermal sensors are now on place and the cables exiting the rear of the control box soldered to the connectors, this has allowed me to fix the rear panel in place.

Still await the 2 power meters, ended up re-ordering them, so hopefully, these will arrive, still have enough to do to keep busy till they arrive, but, I am running out of work whilst they arrive.

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

Update

Finally the 2 power meters have arrived, can finish the front panel, it may not be the end of the build, it is not even the beginning of the end, but, perhaps it is at least the end of the begging of this build

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

Last nights work

Front panel pretty much finished and cable tied in to place, all connections are soldered in place and heat shrink covering the power connections, all low voltage and high voltage cables are separated to help with interference.

I have 2 of the thermal sensor cables to make up as I have run out of shielded cable, and the panel is good to go.

I am half way through fitting the water feed under the sink to run water and waste, hopefully that will be finished next week, so, with luck I will be running some form of cleaning run next weekend.

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

After some advice, I fitted the reflux and shotgun condenser PRV valve, and have set the PRV to 3 bar pressure, did some water flow tests last night and I'm getting about half a litre through in 6 seconds, that's, obviously 1 Litre in 12 seconds, so that's 300 litres an hour.

What are you guys seeing as a variation of water usage, I am aware that this depends on size of the condensers etc, but, just looking for some ball park figures, I'm looking to measure the water usage during the runs.

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

Hi there

And finally finished the build, first image was from the weekend, fitted the water feed with quick release connectors, it is fitted with a pressure reducing valve that is set at the min to 3 PSI, also a ball valve to shut off the water, above that is the water drain valve to feed directly into the waste line, I did fit a short quick release tube that goes from the water feed directly to the drain in case of accidental turning on of the ball valve.

The second picture is of the controller, finished the last 2 temperature probe cables last night.

I've tested the water cooling system and all seems good, also tested the boiler on full power to 60 degrees C water temperature to test the power controllers and all went well.

I have 3 small corrective items to do tomorrow night, and will complete a test boil with water Saturday leading to a cleaning run Sunday, I will be putting a couple of fermentation's at the weekend to be ready, all going well for 10 days time to do the first run.

Cheers

Tony

[MoonBreath]

Get ya a couple of runs for baselines..Water out lukewarm and stable, then calc ifn needed.

[Tony1964]

Moonbreath

“Ifn” ? What does that stand for please

Cheers

Tony

[frunobulax]

I've been watching you build, and I'm missing how the vapor is controlled. It looks like a condenser controlled reflux, but I don't see a way for you to move the condenser up and down, with it being soldered to the cap at the top.

[Tony1964]

Fruno,

There is a couple of ways to control the RC the first is the separate needle valve to at least attempt to control the amount of coolent to the RC, the whole water flow is also restricted by a pressure reducing valve that after last nights cleaning run is set to 2.5 bar pressure.

The second, is as your expecting, the RC is soldered to a tri-clamp blank plate. Remove the tri-clamp retaining clamp and away you go, you can lift the RC to any position.

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

Weekend work

Water boil test for leaks done, no issues on leaks, cleaning run done with the 5 litres of foreshore and 16 litres of tails, ummmm, what an experience. My first thoughts, what have I let myself in for ? Half way through, I thought I would attempt a deliberate flooding of the column. Coming from a pot still, this is an experience I am glad I did in a controlled way. This is a violent experience, but, one I am still getting clear in my head.
Better to have done this now than to experience this unexpectedly.

I ran both tests in the gin configuration, one of the interesting things was the sudden pressure change you could see with the liquid movement in the gin sightglass section prior to the still column dumping some half a litre of 90 proof in to the PC in a matter of seconds. Naked flame boys would have been pulling the pin on the fire extinguisher.

I have collected a lot of information from the tests, that I’m going to get my head around over the next few days whilst I wait for the fermenters to finish the first wash to go in to the still.

Interesting to see using the gin sight glass is how little RC water flow you need to get 100% reflux.

I need to learn how to balance the column, I have already made changes to the thermal probes and the RC as well as adding more stainless steel packing, in my mind, one of the things on the RC water flow, introducing a 16 degrees C water flow is quite dramatic in its effect, it’s virtually acting like a switch, no matter how slow to a point. I need to understand this more.

The PC, to be fair, even on a very low flow setting would knock down Mike Tyson, this could have been half the size.

I have some video footage on the cleaning run, I take it I can post this?

I need to make a slight venting change to the control box, the fans suck air in on the 2 SCR controllers, given the box is IP67 rated, I need slightly better air flow. The controllers ran at some 45 degrees C on full power at there heat sinks. Not an issue, but, I want to get that properly out of the controller box.

Heat up times, from 19 degrees C to 70 degrees C in 25 mins at just under 4 Kw of heating power.

There was a 10 degree C variation in temperature between boiler vapour temperature and take off temperature, other thermal temps remained constant.

Obviously given the nature of the wash, the temps are lower than I expect from a proper wash.

I await the fermentation to finish to continue, but, my main understanding needs to be on balancing the column. Any advise would be welcome.

Cheers

Tony

[frunobulax]

You have all the whistles and bells on that rig, but I don't think any of them are of any use until ya just learn to drive it naked, IMO . Put your wash in, and reflux it till near the point of flooding and watch and feel the column, know where the breaking point is. ya have to balance the heat input to the coolant flow. Then start drawing off the heads hearts and tails, while watching your head temps. I have a 3" Boka, and after refluxing and pulling fores and heads, the top temperature will stay steady throughout the run and when I see the temp move up a tenth of a degree or so, I know the tails are coming,and at that point I'll put it back into full reflux, re compress and squeeze out as much as I can out before the temp starts to creep up again. It's only while doing that a couple times, can ya start to monitor coolant flows, heat input, output, water flow etc. and have it dialed in.
Hope this makes sense.

[Tony1964]

Fruno

Thanks for the advise, if I could perhaps trouble you for some further advise, this is relating to power, I have 4Kw of power in the boiler, my normal routine in my pot still is to reach say 70 degrees C then back off the power to 850W, the pot still would then be pretty much happy with continuing at that power, I monitor the temperature and output flow till this starts to decrease the product flow, and gently increase the power in say 50W lifts again this is based on the product flow, I continue this till I detect tails coming through.
What power would you expect this to back off the boil in a 25 litre wash on my 1.2 meter column? just an approximate? just what to expect really?

Cheers

Tony

[still_stirrin]

What power would you expect this to back off the boil in a 25 litre wash on my 1.2 meter column? just an approximate? just what to expect really?

Here...have a read: https://homedistiller.org/calcs/heatmass" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I think you’ll find your answer there.
ss

[Tony1964]

SS

I have read this before, and have studied the math it gives, unless I’m compleatly wrong, I can input a energy input, great, I can input the energy absorption I.e full reflux of any amount of energy with the RC, granted I woul be using a heck of a lot of water. The real information is that at the column floods at a point because the weakest link is the calculation that tells me how much vapour is flowing in the heat source direction versus the liquid volume being condensed in the other direction and of cause the re vapourisation I n between.

Unless again I’m missing something, what I need to know is what is the maximum vapour liquid capacity of the column, if this was just an empty tube this would be easier to calculate, but, the column is packed, therefore knowing the volume of the cylinder is no longer easy. I could weigh the column with the packing in place and then weigh it full of water, the difference then being the empty space that has been filled with water.

My point is that there is not an input for the maximum amount of gas per second a 2” column will allow to flow, minus the obvious density of packing. Or, do I have to work that out?

Does that make sense, hence the approx starting point.

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

First run and a further cleaning run

Hopefully I get it on Equilibrium, I removed the last section of copper packing in the final glass section so I could see the point at which the boiling mix would escape the previous packing, when it does the ABV drops from over 90% to mid 70%'s, back the power down again and it comes back up to over 90%.

Balancing this is not exactly easy I have to say, but, for the first full wash not a bad lesson at all, power was around 1100 Watts at 240V. I actually practised backing down the power and bring back to balance the column quite a few times, how you do this without sight glasses is an art I have to say.

What I am interested in understanding is, I have read some of you guys putting a huge amount of power into the column, if I do that it would just flood and over come the product take off point, the RC even on full reflux would just fill what is already a full column, am I missing something?

Reflux drops straight down the centre of the packing, the issue I have is the reflux cooling water, literally the smallest movement on the needle valve will go from full reflux to virtually no reflux, I've not tried moving the RC condenser up and down yet, I was expecting more control from RC coil with a needle valve than I actually get.

On the PC shotgun condenser, I need very little water flow, I think I've said before this PC could have been half the size.

Currently the still and column is not insulated, will be looking in to that later.

It's nice to have all of the thermometers in progression on the rig, but, for those that are reading in some manner to build a column still they are not all necessary at all.

Any comments on the above would be most welcome

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

OK ran a quick run last night.

Made a change to the cooling, this has probably been mentioned, I reversed the cooling flow as in instead of controlling the input cooling with the needle valves, it occurred to me that it would be better to actually cool the output cooling as in have the needle valves at the cooling water waste end, this stops the coolant being drained of by capillary action when the valves are closed and boom, what a difference, nice and controllable, no massive cold shock to the RC and held the product take off temperatures constant for the full small test run.

On the equilibrium side of things, popped the packing back in the top section and was easily able to have the column run with the packing loaded with vapour reflux with minimal adjustments through the tests, could easily hold full reflux and equilibrium for 45 mins before I backed off the reflux to start taking product off, power was some 1.3Kw

What I have found and is totally different to my pot still, on my pot still I would gradually increase the power as the run went on, with the column still I found that I am backing off the power, say taking the product initially off at 1.3Kw with say 50% reflux and finish at some 950 Watts toward the end of the run, comments?

I have the a wash in that has finished and is clearing for a full run this Saturday.

Cheers

Tony

[still_stirrin]

I have a combo LM/VM reflux head.

What I’ve found is that the stable vapor poduction rate is best when driving around 1kW to 1.2kW. The copper column is insulated and marble packed and 2” ID x 1 meter tall. The calculators say 1.8kW is about right for vapor speed but I find I need less power to get to azeo (from low wines, not a one & done). Perhaps energy efficiency is prudently designed into my system (hopefully, I’m a mechanical engineer by trade with experience in oil and gas production systems).

I use the LM takeoff to collect the fores and early heads and then use the VM for the rest of the run. The VM will keep the reflux ratio managed very well, holding azeo throughout the run until the tails hit. I don’t have to adjust either the heat input or coolant flows through this period...it is “self-regulated”.

When I hit tails, the product flow all but stops. Usually, I’ll close the VM valve and bump the heat up slightly by a couple of amps (I monitor the current flow instead of temperature or voltage). Then I’ll open the LM valve again and collect until the takeoff product gets down to 10-15%ABV, which usually happens quickly. There won’t be much alcohol left in the boiler at this point, just stinky backset.

In summary, learning the quirks of your still will help you run it consistantly and predictably. All the gizmos and gadgets are interesting but often quite unnecessary. It really gets down to “knowing your stuff”, which you will through experience. It’s yours...and nobody else’s...so enjoy it.
ss

[Tony1964]

SS

Thanks for the reply, it was why I questioned the values in the calculator, they where just not what I was finding, anything above the 1.3Kw and the column will flood, but, found it stable between the values I mentioned above.

My back ground is electronics engineering, hence the over use of measurement, I actually ran a very small batch, like enough for 2 litres at 40%, and found it to be lacking in flavour compared to my pot still Vodka, going to to trial less reflux the weekend pull a little more flavour out.

Made a slight modification again to the water inflow of the PC shotgun to reduce the water usage.

Interesting hobby this.

Thank you for your reply.

Cheers

Tony

[Tony1964]

First real run the weekend just gone.

What can I say, I actually shut the run down after an hour and half, at 850 watts and 1 litre in the ABV started to drop dramatically from over 90 to below 80, I could not get the power any higher without risking flooding.

I could not be at the end of the run this makes no sense is in the head.

Shut down and watched it drain, as it got towards the last section of the column I could see the liquid having issues with dropping into the still, so, I vented the still by releasing the pressure valve, lots of hissing to release the pressure, not enough to even register on its meter, and still the column was having problems emptying in to the boiler.

Thinking time.......... stripped the column down, I fitted a fine gauze at the bottom of the column to prevent the packing falling in to the boiler, un soldered it and put a thing single retaining strip in place, put the column back together and boom, can run the thing at 2.4Kw if you wanted to, increased the water flow to the RC and like a set of waterfalls from one section to another.

The weight of the refluxed vapour sitting on top of the scrubbers was virtually sealing the fine gauze, a lesson there, just because you can easily breath through all of the packing does not mean when it is wet it would not choke up.

Centring the vapour, Sunday, I decided to take the column apart again with the lessons learnt from Saturday, and un roll the copper packing, take some stainless steel scrubbers pull them length ways to make a stainless steel core and wrap the copper packing around it, allowing the centre of the core to be easily transversed by refluxed vapour back down the column, given that liquid likes to find the least path of resistance I will get more down the centre, we will see.

Taste of the Vodka, really really nice, the column having started it again, went back straight over 90% and stayed there for virtually the whole run, temps rock steady.

Point is, never assume anything.

2 fermentation's started yesterday next run T minus 10 days or so.

Cheers

Tony

[frunobulax]

Glad ya got it sorted out. Now you see why it's hard do give advice/help diagnose a problem when -It should work, but it doesn't.
Keep the thread updated!