newbe copper still build

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drotto
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by drotto »

small progress not worth much post.
holidays work blah blah blah.

got tired of all the random stuff in the shop so saturday i declared a shop cleaning day.
happily while moving stuff back to storager i found about 6 feet of 1.5" copper pipe i'd forgotten was in storage.
not having enough 1.5" pipe to finish the thumper i had back burnered it for later, now the thumper can be built before i fire up the rig.

today no work finished cleaning shop then i solved biggest issue with quad libig design today.
the manifold i want to use was causing clearance issues that was gonna require a stupid amount of fittings and solder to achieve.
i HATED that plan and was thinking up all sorts of elaborate bending jigs to make the dogleg in the pipe without losing the tube shape.
having brilliantly cut the 1/2" pipe before i settled on a design i couldn't stuff the pipe with salt and pinched ends not enough material. :roll:

then i was gonna build something to go in the press.
the pipe crush was still an issue and making a split jig with the correct curve and able to fit a 1/2" pipe for a one off seemed insane.

meanwhile i was thinking of ways to eliminate the manufactured reducers by making a crush jig to reduce the actual pipe.
no good reason i just think it'll look nicer and i'd been reading on other approaches to eliminating reducers to save on costs and lineur space.
i reasoned i'd need a steel rod to keep the 1/2" o.d. when i did the crush reduction.
somewhere in all that brain stuff the two ideas got mixed together.

i ended up modifying a brass reducer 3/4 x 3/4 x 1/2 with a curved out cut on the 1/2" section.
this became my bending jig don't ask how i came up with the idea it just appeared.
i used steel rod sized to the i.d. of the pipe as an anti crush jig inside the pipe and the whole slightly strange idea worked.
will post pix tomorrow in case someone needs to do something like this or wants to copy what i did.

d 8)
Appalachian spirits
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by Appalachian spirits »

Where did you go? We want to see what your doing.
drotto
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by drotto »

this may get a little windy been hanging out all day drinking appline today not as young as i used to be!!
(appline = my 18% apple wine/plonk :twisted: )

first, last week i stopped production because i was having fits using this new silver based solder.
i've been brazing and silver soldering for well over forty years but this new stuff threw me bad.
i hadn't been doing much plumbing as my subs are all way better in an every day practice thing.
i knew about the new solders but never had used them.
it was a train wreck and i actually ruined one of my libigs before my natural stubborness went away.
so i cleaned the entire shop ,put away all the tools ,organized everything and threw myself out till i had answers to what i was doing wrong!

went to utube, love those videos and watched a whole lotta guys who i reconized as pros.
read up on solder pastes melting points of fluxes melting points of alloys ect ect.
after my research i threw away all the old flux ideas and any actual flux i had in my bags.
i went dragging on ebay and bought a bunch of solder, flux and paste for nice prices.

these specs below explained what i was doing wrong which was about everything!
here's some notes which might be interesting to builders.
solder
joints need to be double swept meaning heat left then add solder then heat right add solder flame diffused and indirect from solder.
solder does not flow as well as old alloys and trying to force capillary action with more heat will result in over-heated joints.
solid means solder retains it's form but is melted enough to add more solder to mass. liquid means mass is fluid and flowable.
brigit solder = solid 460f liquid 630f
bridgit paste flux melt @ 200f
bridgit water soluable melt @ 250f

stay brite solder = solid 430f liquid 430f fills .002- .005
stay brite 8 solder = solid 430f liquid 535f fills .002 -.007
stay clean liquid flux up to 700f
stay clean paste flux (tube joints) up to 700f *remove residue (acid base)

braze
dynaflow rod melt zone 1190f - 1465f
dynaflow flux 1050f - 1600f leaves residue needs cleaning
stay silv white 1050f-1600f good on non ferrous metal
stay silv black flux 1050f-1800f (no burn flux) all purpose specifically use on stainless steel


then a silly thing called work intruded on my project.

being a contractor usually i'm free to pretty much do what i like schedule wise especially in the winter.
but i am also a stagehand (good health insurance access through the union)who has barely enough seniority to get an occasional show call.
this month was supposed to be really slow for me but the more senior guys are out on road gigs.
so i scored a decent weekend worth of work.
booked fifty plus hours since friday not figuring the overtime in the contract.
i used today to sleep a little, maybe sipped some of the appline.
i make it kinda strong like 18%. :D

was supposed to go to philly job tomorrow but i got a bad vibe from the lead guy and was concerned about safety and passed.
at 12+ stories in the air you don't go if you're the least bit unsure about the boss calling the job.
so tomorrow is fix truck day brakes are sticking
got a race friday so i NEED my truck and trailer to be working.
saturday i'm playing with my new solders i just a whole bunch off ebay
then W.W.F. pre rig sunday and W.W.F raw i think? all day monday (20+ hours).

so tuesday or more probably wendsday i'll be back to building , still alot of apple plonk to drink!! :P

maybe i'll post some pix saturday of clean shop and a few parts i managed to build including wrecked stuff.
D 8)
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SaltyStaves
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by SaltyStaves »

Brigit contains Nickel and because its a proprietary alloy they (Harris) don't state how much is in it, or anything else that might be in the alloy. They just say its a replacement for lead based solder for drinking water. You can't go wrong with Stay Brite.

Great project. I'm very jealous.
drotto
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by drotto »

don't be jealous copy it.
part of reason i'm posting is to help others with their builds.
while i'm new to building stills my fabricating skills have been developed for many years.
not by me i just learned the hand skills.
the methods i employ go back hundreds even perhaps a couple of thousand years.
i was taught and shown things with the expectation that i would pass this knowledge forward as is done in most trades.
that's hopefully what this thread represents to others.

the soldering is mostly gonna be on the tubing connections which in the majority are water sleeves with no distilant contact.
the seams are all being brazed with the idea small leaks will be closed with staybrite 6% silver solder.
some parts that are small will get real jewelers silver solder that i have and am very familiar with from past work.
i forget the percentages but it's way over 6%.

the composition of their bridgit solder does have nickel more of a concern when actually soldering because nickel fumes are carcenigenic.
so overheating a solder joint would be a bad idea!

anyway truck is broke bad enough to scrub dragging trailer and stuff to track day.
it's far to cold to work on and renting a truck ain't happening so no racing practice for me . :cry:
am gonna go anyway and hang out maybe do some parts trading.
d 8)
drotto
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by drotto »

ok saturday was ok for progress but i'm beginning to hate my libig design.
not because of any functional reason but because building it has been a series of wreck stuff first then think!

anyway first the happy stuff.
people that know me would fall down if they saw this pix as i rarely have time to clean the shop.
for some reason i've started putting tools away again and keeping order in the shop.
for posterity i took a pix.
clean shop posted for posterity!
clean shop posted for posterity!
new stuff now maybe i'll be successful soldering!
new stuff now maybe i'll be successful soldering!
in this pix i did a crude live water test , the libig is filled with water and let sit.the paper towels are to show if water leaked out.after about twenty minutes i called them good. one leak was found and repaired. it seems using the correct flux with the solder makes a big difference!!
in this pix i did a crude live water test , the libig is filled with water and let sit.the paper towels are to show if water leaked out.after about twenty minutes i called them good. one leak was found and repaired. it seems using the correct flux with the solder makes a big difference!!
here's the stainless tank i bought for five bux and will become a thump tank.
here's the stainless tank i bought for five bux and will become a thump tank.
thump tank mocked up with fittings
thump tank mocked up with fittings
the day was going well solder flowing nicely. progress happening ect ect.
of course a decision i made weeks ago was gonna derail me.
what happened was simple.
i designed a four libig set up so i'd never stress the condensor capacity but not have to deal with a stupidly long pipe..
i figured if it was too big i could always make a smaller one.
midway through building it i decided there were to many connections and made a manifold to cut down connections.
it's a good idea but i'd already cut the copper 1/2" pipe to work with the fittings.
i realized early on the new design would've been easier to build if the pipes were longer.
the libigs weren't even assembled yet so switching to longer tubes would've been pretty easy though wasteful of the copper.
long story short - i decided i'd manage to bend the pipes and fit them up as is -- aaaaand i was WRONG. :shock:

after three different days of bending re-bending and wrecking a couple of the libigs i have concluded i once again outsmarted myself.
before i wreck anything else i've thrown myself out of the shop again.
a big rethink is happening and since i'm booked to work the next two days i'll have plenty of time to consider.
my main job monday will be to follow a camera crew around while they film wrestlers.
in the next post i'll put some more pix with text.
D 8)
drotto
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by drotto »

quad libig first assembly try. i thought the pipe angles were ready to assemble so i soldered the first two together.
quad libig first assembly try. i thought the pipe angles were ready to assemble so i soldered the first two together.
close up
close up
heres a bent and unbent libig.the unbent one replaced one i'd destroyed in try #1. my first mistake i'd made was pre-bending the 1/2" pipe before i soldered the joints.bad idea as bending opened up the fittings and i also didn't consider how i was gonna clean the joints after the pipe was bent . i had annealed the pipes while it was pre assembled while made any presanding i'd done a waste of time. all that  made soldering them interesting to put it mildly. i actually wrecked one thus the brand new one that's unbent. beta libig test two starts with fittings presoldered.
heres a bent and unbent libig.the unbent one replaced one i'd destroyed in try #1. my first mistake i'd made was pre-bending the 1/2" pipe before i soldered the joints.bad idea as bending opened up the fittings and i also didn't consider how i was gonna clean the joints after the pipe was bent . i had annealed the pipes while it was pre assembled while made any presanding i'd done a waste of time. all that made soldering them interesting to put it mildly. i actually wrecked one thus the brand new one that's unbent. beta libig test two starts with fittings presoldered.
here's a fine picture of my pipe bender jig disaster. the brand new libig wasn't annealed (i forgot) and the pipe work hardened and cracked pretty quick.i maybe said some bad words!
here's a fine picture of my pipe bender jig disaster. the brand new libig wasn't annealed (i forgot) and the pipe work hardened and cracked pretty quick.i maybe said some bad words!
pipe bender jig7.JPG (32.53 KiB) Viewed 2203 times
the happy part is i'm getting REALLY good at fabricating libigs. this new one took about fifteen minutes start to finish.
the happy part is i'm getting REALLY good at fabricating libigs. this new one took about fifteen minutes start to finish.
drotto
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by drotto »

here's a few pix of my pipe bending jig.
i used an old brass fitting as the outside form control.
note the small curve filed out of the fitting to allow pipe to flex as it bends.
inside i use a piece of steel rod about the i.d. of the pipe.
when the copper is properly annealed it bends very nicely without getting deformed.
the steel rod is inserted to the edge of the brass fitting as seen in pix.
be sure to round end of rod so you don't cut the inside of the pipe when bending.
steel rod that fits into pipe
steel rod that fits into pipe
a close fit is important
a close fit is important
rod goes in to edge of fitting opening . the pipe can be inserted as far as you like to vary where your bend is in the pipe.
rod goes in to edge of fitting opening . the pipe can be inserted as far as you like to vary where your bend is in the pipe.
libig in jig being bent
libig in jig being bent
annealing the pipe is critical to success! this one wasn't annealed.
annealing the pipe is critical to success! this one wasn't annealed.
pipe bender jig7.JPG (32.53 KiB) Viewed 2203 times
Appalachian spirits
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by Appalachian spirits »

I had problems with the tubes in my gatlin. I used stay brite 8 on the end plates and it propmtly melted when i soldered the reducers on the ends. I went back, removed all the soft solder and used stay silv on the plates so when i soldered on the reducers with the staybrite they didnt go to s@#$ on me.
Love the thump, thats very nice .
zapata
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by zapata »

Building shit is cool, building unique stuff is cooler. But do you really need a quad liebig for a 10 gallon pot? I cant really tell, but 1 of those looks like it'll handle all the heat you wanna throw at a 10 gallon still.

But, by all means, carry on. You gotta do it now, right?
drotto
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by drotto »

funny you ask about the pot size match to the libig.
long story short the 10 gallon pot is still # 1.
there are others planned! :P

besides i can build these libigs pretty fast.
they are really simple and i have enough copper pipr to make about 250' worth of libigs.
so if my quad is too big i can always make a smaller one. :D

on the soft solder.
removing the soft solder and starting with the highest heat flow solder was the very best approach.
it takes some trades people forever to figure that out.
i was taught approach that early on as a apprentice jeweler a lifetime ago.

when you make complex jewelry or metal work it's built in stages.
you start with hard solder which has a high melting point.
after maybe three joints are made with hard you move to medium solder then soft solder.
each one of these solders has a build point (melted but not fluid) and a flow point.
by taking advantage of these flow points you can avoid dis assembling your build but it's often not easy.
that's the classic and best approach to building things that are complicated like a tiny ring with three settings and alot of filigri work.

with ALOT of practice a skill set can develop where you can cheat.
all you need to do is go in fast heat what needs heat flow the solder get out and quench the piece before the heat soaks out further and melts other things.
all in like three seconds.
that's not an good approach i advise because if you time fail everything goes bad quick.

another approach on a complicated build is to jig up everything and solder once.
making up the jig usually takes about 90% of the time you'll need the soldering is the easy part.
one downside to jigs is the nasty habit solder has of attaching ANYTHING it flows over.

carefully sooting up jig wire or making it firescaled will help stop this bad solder behavior.
i prefer to use rusty steel binding wire as my main jig solder doesn't like sticking to the rust.
using charcoal blocks to keep the wire from contacting your work can be helpful.
there are also products designed to prevent solder from flowing but they are only as good as application and your skill set.

heat sinks are another great way to prevent unwanted solder flow.
they can be as simple as wet paper towels wrapped around the part section you don't want to heat.
keeping the heat sink wet is pretty easy but remember to quench parts immediately to prevent the heat from wandering.

i'm done drinking coffee
finished writing this post
have no paying work to do
and it's colder than i'd like for getting the gardens cleaned up today.
so maybe i'll wander into the shop and see what i do!
got alot to do

the copper still i'm making is my pretty build mostly for final runs.
next comes a keg still for stripping runs and probably a barrel set up for mash cooking.
gonna have to build a few stands to hold these things and i've an evil idea to make the little thumper into a dual purpose tool.
mostly because i can and it might help somebody else with a build. bwa ha ha. :twisted:

Aaaaand as it turns out a good friend has about seven log kegs and a couple of 15.5 barrel kegs he owns from micro brew beer he's bought in the past.
he has no use for them and makes plenty of money so he GAVE them to me for this project.
most will be storage units for aging a part of the project i was leaving out till i figured out a budget to buy said kegs.
now we are just gonna go ahead and get that ready too!!

i have alot of friends that keep their collective mouths shut just waiting for me to finish this project.
seems i'll have a posse of guys pursuing this hobby with me once there's a functioning set of equipment.
all this is gonna be hobby level we have no need to sell.
dang, i'd even pay the dang taxes if there was an easy way to do that even though i truely hate paying taxes.
D 8)
zapata
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by zapata »

one downside to jigs is the nasty habit solder has of attaching ANYTHING it flows over.
I've never used it myself but I've seen others use white out to paint areas they don't want solder to stick. Seems like it holds up to the heat, but removes easy later and leaves a clean line. I imagine it would work even better on jigs and whatnot where you won't even need to remove it.
drotto
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by drotto »

white out is a good solder block i've used it before in tight spaces.
problem is it doesn't do well in heat.
basically is great as long as just solder not open flame hits it.
the white out that used to be used for whiting out hand pasted pages for copy machines was best but that info is something like 30 years ago.

here's todays progress.
not much done i got distracted on craigslist search before i went into shop.
was about 2 pm before i got into shop.
BIG DISASTER , other day i got called away from shop and neglected to close main acetylene valve and it's been like that since last week.
needless to say nearly new tank is now about empty.
acetylene is stupid expensive anymore i may be exploring using other gas any suggestions fro pros?
sadly i had to shut down work at six pm as i was needed somewhere.
first pix
added bracket to lyne arm
added bracket to lyne arm
bracket with bridging pipe
bracket with bridging pipe
lyne arm loosely placed with new bracket 1/2 installed
lyne arm loosely placed with new bracket 1/2 installed
heres the libig partially assembled. i modified my approach by using thin copper wire loop to hold assembly. this allows small changes in pipe position. first attemp had the pipes rigidly connected and didn't work.
heres the libig partially assembled. i modified my approach by using thin copper wire loop to hold assembly. this allows small changes in pipe position. first attemp had the pipes rigidly connected and didn't work.
i also tweeked the collector a little for a better fit.
i also tweeked the collector a little for a better fit.
drotto
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by drotto »

i also went into new ground again having never built what i had in mind.
basically i wanted to fill in the open areas of the collector between the pipes.
has i thought it out better i would've been able to just make a flat filler plate with holes like a shotgun uses.
but noooooo i had to make it look coool which has vastly complicated a fairly easy concept. :roll:

so instead i decided to build a insert that'll be brazed into place then the pipes solder to the nipples i'd be forming.
luckily i had no idea how to do this so i just winged it and things went smoothly for once.
as i wasn't sure it would work i left a bunch of pix un-taken.
i need another one so this will just be a before and where i stopped set of pix!
i'll post a step by step maybe tomorrow.
copper minding it's own buziness
copper minding it's own buziness
what i made
what i made
vapor side
vapor side
tiny tubes were a b!t$t to form
tiny tubes were a b!t$t to form
fits here
fits here
drotto
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by drotto »

more pix
vapor side
vapor side
this part will be filed to size, then will be fit about an 1/2" up inside the collector and brazed into place
this part will be filed to size, then will be fit about an 1/2" up inside the collector and brazed into place
this is a soldering tutorial apologies to guys that already know how. first you set part into fixture of some sort place what's to be soldered on and add flux and pallions. next to the libig is a copper pipe rolled with silver solder. i ran the solder through my rolling mill to reduce the thickness of the solder which is annoying fat. the thinner solder will be less likely to go everwhere else besides my joint!!
this is a soldering tutorial apologies to guys that already know how. first you set part into fixture of some sort place what's to be soldered on and add flux and pallions. next to the libig is a copper pipe rolled with silver solder. i ran the solder through my rolling mill to reduce the thickness of the solder which is annoying fat. the thinner solder will be less likely to go everwhere else besides my joint!!
what the heck is a pallion. it's that tiny piece of solder in front of the tweezers ,under the copper wire and next to the copper wire. you use a pallion instead of stick feeding to control how much solder gets into a joint. when i made filigri i used to thin the pallions to tissue thickness then cut tiny pieces to make nearly invisible joints. basically a pallions purpose is to control the amount of solder available to a joint and to reduce clean up.
what the heck is a pallion. it's that tiny piece of solder in front of the tweezers ,under the copper wire and next to the copper wire. you use a pallion instead of stick feeding to control how much solder gets into a joint. when i made filigri i used to thin the pallions to tissue thickness then cut tiny pieces to make nearly invisible joints. basically a pallions purpose is to control the amount of solder available to a joint and to reduce clean up.
use indirect flame to heat the bigger part.when the flux flows move heat over thinner part and the solder will bunch onto it. then heat the heaver part and the solder will flow to the heat and in this case follw the wire neatly joining the two parts.
use indirect flame to heat the bigger part.when the flux flows move heat over thinner part and the solder will bunch onto it. then heat the heaver part and the solder will flow to the heat and in this case follw the wire neatly joining the two parts.
drotto
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by drotto »

more pix
solder bunched up on wire
solder bunched up on wire
solder flowed onto pipe and wire nicely joined without a huge mess.
solder flowed onto pipe and wire nicely joined without a huge mess.
drotto
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by drotto »

arrrgh long day slow progress.
i'll post a critique on why this design was needlessly complicated as with such slow progress i've had lots of second thoughts.
i've already redesigned how i'd build a better libig quad but that'll be another day.
even though this one is far too fussy to build it'll get built .
i've always said when you are "taking a bath" you might as well get clean.

as promised heres some pix on how to raise a fitting from flat sheet.
i hope it'll be useful to someone.
copper is already annealed to dead soft
copper is already annealed to dead soft
first dents are done on soft surface.i long ago lost my leather shot bag but foam stuff is good enough
first dents are done on soft surface.i long ago lost my leather shot bag but foam stuff is good enough
i used a fitting as the dap block my dap block is mia. the steel thing is a tapered swag rod used to fit pipes over one another. old school plumber tool long obsolete.
i used a fitting as the dap block my dap block is mia. the steel thing is a tapered swag rod used to fit pipes over one another. old school plumber tool long obsolete.
this is early look of drawn bumps. they'll go deeper but first it needs to be re-annealed
this is early look of drawn bumps. they'll go deeper but first it needs to be re-annealed
after they are deep enough i just punch a hole punch through the bumps old school style
after they are deep enough i just punch a hole punch through the bumps old school style
drotto
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by drotto »

more pix
holes are torn normally very bad to do but i only need a tiny lip for this project a quick file job will fix
holes are torn normally very bad to do but i only need a tiny lip for this project a quick file job will fix
filed
filed
back punching holes go both ways to prevent tears
back punching holes go both ways to prevent tears
eventually you get to this point.the first one i decided to junk it had serious fitment issues. made this one rather than fight the metal. not perfect but it'll work.
eventually you get to this point.the first one i decided to junk it had serious fitment issues. made this one rather than fight the metal. not perfect but it'll work.
the first one ready to install all nicely brazed in . i did a little fussy "body work" on the barrel not needed but i feel better about how it looks though still kinda crappy.other barrel and insert needs more shaping and file work .when it fits up i'll braze it in place.
the first one ready to install all nicely brazed in . i did a little fussy "body work" on the barrel not needed but i feel better about how it looks though still kinda crappy.other barrel and insert needs more shaping and file work .when it fits up i'll braze it in place.
MechEngineer_81
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Re: newbe copper still build

Post by MechEngineer_81 »

I am in awe of your skills when it comes to shaping copper. I definitely want to try my hand at building some custom shaped copper pieces, although I can tell it would take years to get to your level.

Keep up the good work!
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