Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by Yummyrum »

If you are intent on this Gun basket idea , it should go just before the product condenser.
In your last layout design you show it before the thumper if you wanted 4x distilled base spirit .

To obtain 4x distilled spirit , you still need to do a cut on it .
If you are planing to load the gin basket from the start on the second run through ,you’ll miss all the good stuff hen you do your cuts as it will have all come through with the foreshots and heads . When the good hearts arrives , the’ll be nothing nice left in the basket .

Ths is what I was meaning about you having to do your cuts on your spirit run n the fly , IE keep tasting it as its coming out and when the hearts start to come through , you stop the still , stick in the basket and start it up to collect the gin part .

It would really be better to make your 4x distlled , do cuts to get the good stuff and then do a 3rd pass with the gin basket .
Without doing cuts on your spirit base first , your Gin will be horrible .
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

still_stirrin wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:15 am I can hardly wait until you actually start building. That’s when the “real Q&A” will begin.

But, I am impressed with your modeling skills and toolset. A great potential there...
ss
Hah I can hardly wait either, kegs getting modified this month, condenser dry-fitted and ready to solder, just trying to nail down the details so I have less Q&A, and I don't have to buy more copper due to poor planning. For instance, I am planning on adding another coupling to my condenser in the vertical run of pipe, to allow me to pitch 45 degrees back towards the main-boiler, for space efficiency. This was not accounted for prior to 3D modeling and planning of physical layout.

In the meantime, have some Wineos Sugar wash to run and some unusual grain on the way for fun AG batches (Bloody butcher's corn and this Triticate - wheat rye hybrid)

Yummyrum wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:12 pm If you are intent on this Gun basket idea , it should go just before the product condenser.
In your last layout design you show it before the thumper if you wanted 4x distilled base spirit .

To obtain 4x distilled spirit , you still need to do a cut on it .
If you are planing to load the gin basket from the start on the second run through ,you’ll miss all the good stuff hen you do your cuts as it will have all come through with the foreshots and heads . When the good hearts arrives , the’ll be nothing nice left in the basket .

Ths is what I was meaning about you having to do your cuts on your spirit run n the fly , IE keep tasting it as its coming out and when the hearts start to come through , you stop the still , stick in the basket and start it up to collect the gin part .

It would really be better to make your 4x distlled , do cuts to get the good stuff and then do a 3rd pass with the gin basket .
Without doing cuts on your spirit base first , your Gin will be horrible .
Im not very good at letting go of ideas. I figured pre-condenser would give one the strongest flavor, otherwise in the other spots, it gets condensed and distilled and leaves the flavor behind.

I thought vapor infusion for gin was made on the spirit run as a whole, after the stripping run? Odin's easy gin has you toss it in the boiler during the entire spirit run?

Have no fear, I constantly sample, its part of the fun, but my last 12 hour session for 40 gallons of wash left me with a headache the next day.
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by SomethingObscure »


BlueSasquatch wrote:
...I can hardly wait either, kegs getting modified this month...
Any updates on your build blueSasquatch
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

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The keg has been welded, the thumper and the boiler. The keg thin wall caused more pull on the weld than we expected so it was a bit of a pain but overall looking good. I ordered another batch of copper in and now I'm just short the heating element and some copper ferrules. Should start soldering it but ive been putting it off until I have everything. Thinking I may do some of it this weekend.

Still hunting a 3rd keg for the pre heat, no rush there, id like a couple more for keggles as well.

Completely rebuilt the burner I was using, and took a $30 hand crank grinder and a bunch of scrap on the farm to make it automated with a metal stand, and like a 15 gallon hopper on top.

Got a couple spirit runs this weekend of a triticale whisky I'm excited to see to the end.

Also my small 1.5 gallon barrel of honey bear bourbon is amazing, sure trumps using oak chips. But the volume I'm losing in it seems pretty high, something like 30% but the towel under it is never damp, so I'm not sure what is happening.
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Stainless Steel 2" Ferrules for $6
Copper 2" Ferrules for $15-20

Decided to take a chance, (Mostly because this plan requires 9 of them, so $50 vs $180) with Stainless Ferrules from Mile-High Distillery, after reading a review where someone said something like "Tight fit with copper pipe, hammered it in, tight enough to not need to braze" which was encouraging, but I know the copper pipe Type all varies enough to make that a dangerous blanket statement.

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I had hoped for a better fit! But not all hope was lost, decided to heat the copper with a torch, and hammer the stainless into the pipe. This did not work the first night, just couldn't get the stainless to drive in, on all sides. Sort of like when a trashbag is to small for the container, so the end you put on, keeps popping off when you try the other sides.

But I'm stubborn.

Came back and beveled the edge, the idea being to get an even start, line things up well, before heating and hammering away. I also chamfered the inside edge of the copper pipe, just enough.

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Quite pleased with the fit, I used some maple as a block between the fitting and the sledge, hammered away on a pine work-bench, saw no deformity or tool-mark or ill-side effect from the process, There appears to be no discoloration on any part of the stainless that I can still see, it did not see direct heat, but it did get some heat, from the copper, during the heating process. Heated the area until it was to hot to touch, 12" farther down the pipe, then went to town with the wood block and sledge, when I got close to the end, used a level to assist in getting the fit as true as I could.

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I don't believe this will require any additional work, in terms of brazing or fill, im not even sure what one could do more, I suppose a thin line of solder on the exposed end of the copper pipe? Not sure, but I would be shocked if this leaked any. With max operating temps of about 150, I don't see it heating up enough to come undone, the force needed to get the fitting flush was significant. I could've used the press in the shop but that seems like a quick way to over-do it.

The 2" Copper pipe is Type L
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Plugs for the Boiler, until the pre-heat keg is purchased and created, I didn't like the markings.
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Boiler Keg got three 1" threaded couplings welded on, a friend of mine is a pipe-fitter and did the work for me, supplied these beefy couplings as well as 2" Stainless Pipe for the Thumper line (from the top of the keg, to the bottom of the keg)

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Said Thumper Keg, Top

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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

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Gotta say, I'm very excited to run this with a mash in the thumper and treat the boiler as a steam-boiler, to distill on the grain. Hoping it takes the quality to the next level.

Has me thinking a bit, is it possible to mash, ferment, distill all in the same vessel? If I can distill in the thumper, I could just put an airlock or a blow-tube into a blind-flange, cover up the 2" ports with them. That's easy enough. Cook with this set-up tho? Think I could add 5 gallons of water to the thumper, 10 gallons of water to the boiler, steam-heat the thumper to a specific temp (like 200 lets say) then add my grains, let it cool and add my yeast? The steam-cooking will add water to the thumper in the end, so I'd have to account for that, but it should be do-able?

Only downside would be occupying the thumper for the weeks it ferments, so not a good plan for multiple batches, or more volume. Cheaper to just run buckets for fermenting, but one COULD just buy/make alot of thumpers as a do-it-all sort of thing.
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

The clamps I ordered came with "High Temperature Silicone Gaskets" is this acceptable?

Weekend of Soldering, have done the odd job here and there, this was by far the most numerous and varying sizes of pipes that I've done. Used tinning flux and silver solder, 95/5 I think. Anyways the smaller the easier, those 2" fittings about ended up in the trash, using a propane torch was probably a poor decision, by the end of it, I ended up with something I'm not pissed about.

Also 5500 Watt element came in.

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Contemplating some sort of in-line temperature sensors for the water, wouldn't mind a small read-out display of temp In, temp out and then temp after the water-cooling condenser I'm opting to try out.

Oh and what should I use for the threaded connections to the keg? Teflon tape? Right now I'll have two plugs and a heating element, until I get the other keg, so I'll then have a fill-line and a drain-line, eventually.
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by Barnstorm »

Get some PTFE gaskets for your tri clamps. Teflon tape worked good for me when I was using thread in elements (NPS into NPT).
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Thanks Barnstorm, have those on order.

I was planning on putting a hand-valve in the water line, either inbound or outbound to control the flow, is there a reason for this? Or can I just run full-bore with the water? I thought that I needed an ideal contact time between the water and the vapor, to condense effectively, but I may be misunderstanding that, and the focus instead needs to be on slowing the vapor down? Do I need a valve to modulate water flow through the condenser?


I have two of these, one is brand new, the other was used in a water-cooled computer we had, for maybe 2-3 years.

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Last edited by BlueSasquatch on Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Also
Here is the relatively cheap burner I had been using, the 6 gallon kentucky pot still has a nice dent in the side from when a leg failed and the whole thing fell over while operating.

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We decided to beef it up a bit. Really just re-used the burner assembly. Quite stout now. Currently cook on it with a 8-gallon pot, and run the copper pot still on it.

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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

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Cleaned up the copper, 220 grit orbital sander, then 320 then 400 hand sand, then some brasso and buffing. Not perfect but looking satisfactory. Except for that condenser, way to many tight spacing to get the same level without drastically more effort.
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Working on the control box for the whole thing, found a thread on the forums where someone got a bit fancy with theirs and I decided to copy their set-up, using a Still Dragon box, adding a meter, toggle switch and extra pot knob for better refinement

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Have had some electrical engineers tell me it looked fine but didn't elude exactly what it was for, so they were hesitant to give me a full seal of approval.

Layout to plan the holes. Based on how I want to mount this box, figured the TO and FROM would be best done from the bottom. plan would be for the keg element to have a plug at the end, plug into said box, and box plugs into the wall in the shop.

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Wanted to use my CNC to cut the holes for the top, was going to get fancy with the fan-holes but nothing was going right for me that weekend, so I decided to keep it simple. Lacking a proper end-mill for plastic, the one I had ran just a bit to hot, and I had to stop a few times to peel off melted plastic from the bit. Which did result in a few wider-holes than planned. Overall a good learning experience, not perfect, but still happy with the lid.

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I needed a 1" hole for the wire-grip out the bottom, and a 1.5" hole for the twist-lock outlet. Well to save a few bucks I went with a 1.75" hole saw that I had on hand, not real happy with the outcome (go figure) and the only 1" tool I had was a spade bit, which is quite ugly when used with plastic, so the holes on the side are a bit gnarly. It'll all work but it's not as nice as I had wanted, not sure if it's worth the $20 for a new box tho. Not to sound cheap, but this project sure has had some scope/cost creep on me.


Speaking of scope creep, looking at the pre-heat keg which I don't yet have, but need to figure out a good condenser for the top of it, just in case it generates enough heat to start vapors. I've got some small sized copper left, a Liebig would be the cheapest route to go, and I'm considering it.
However, starting to like the idea of a crossflow condenser on the top of the pre-heat? It could be useful to have one of these, down the road if I decide to add a reflux column or change up my build some. It would allow the keg to be open to the atmosphere.

Any thoughts on this? Can a crossflow be used as a stand-alone knock down condenser?

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Will CAD update the drawing later.
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by Yummyrum »

Yes you could use the crossflow condenser like that.
However you might consider using a liebig . The only thing that will start to vapourize during heat up will be Foreshots and maybe very early heads , so you may as well bleed them off rather than recondense them.

I think Saltystaves does this on his pre-heater system .
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

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Yummyrum wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:37 pm Yes you could use the crossflow condenser like that.
However you might consider using a liebig . The only thing that will start to vapourize during heat up will be Foreshots and maybe very early heads , so you may as well bleed them off rather than recondense them.

I think Saltystaves does this on his pre-heater system .
Right, That's an option, I've got a bit of copper left for that, but a cross-flow looks a bit more fun.
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by SaltyStaves »

Assuming your preheater is not going to be super-efficient, your condenser won't need to be either. You may even be able to getaway with a passively cooled one, or a simple wormtub.
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by NZChris »

Depending what I have in the preheater and the pot and how long the pot runs for, I get anything from zero to finishing the run getting more alcohol from the preheater condenser than I'm getting from the pot.
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Thanks for the feedback gents, I agree that I shouldn't need anything crazy for the pre-heat in terms of condeners, the cross-flow was just an idea to eliminate any take-off, and be something that could be utilized down the road, if I wanted to make a reflux or column addition. However looking at rough costs is making it less likely to occur, would rather get up and running.

Speaking of, picking up 3 more kegs this week, for $100 total. Need one for a pre-heat keg, but a 2nd one I plan on cutting the inside lid off, and using it as a kettle, since my 8-gallon turkey fryer is ridiculously thin, and it would be nice to be able to do 10 gallons + grain, rather than just 5 gallons + grain.

The 3rd keg, I don't have a use for just yet, but hard to pass at $33.33
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Talk about project creep.

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The three kegs I picked up are 13.2 gallons, opposed to the two 15.5 gallons that I already have set up. I also need to consider the pre-heat feeding the thumper, if I am going to do steam distilling, also a better drain method. Tempted to scrap the pre-heat all together, not sure yet.
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

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As you can see in the image, I've already got the thumper keg top modified. After more design work on the mashing/fermenting side of everything, I came to the conclusion that what I wish I had done, was add a 6 to 8 inch sanitary fitting ontop of the thumper keg, and modify the lid/blank to have two 2" fittings, one being the thumper drop tube and the other being the vapor path connection. This would give me a larger opening to steam distill on-grain. The plan is to just add a 4" opening to the top, so I stand a better chance of cleaning it out, but a 6 or 8 would've been nicer.

What's more is that Im taking some excess kegs and turning them into kettles / fermenters. I already need a larger pot to cook mash in, what better than a keg with a larger opening on-top? If one has excess, it's easy enough to leave the mash in the pot to ferment rather than transferring into a separate container. The ultimate next-step would be to distill in the same container as well. Which could've been quite seamless, if that 6-8" lid had been done, instead of what I did do.

Then I could just have 3-4 kegs with 6-8" openings ontop, and cook / ferment / distill in the same containers, just swapping them out as needed, fairly seamlessly.

Been bugging me for about a week now, nothing wrong with the set-up I've got, to modify it would require re-work for my friend who welds these for me, and likely some patch-work as the 2" drop tube falls outside the diameter of an 8" opening, and I can't imagine patching a keg-top to work out very well. Plus my 2" copper pipe is all cut identically, to fit a specific nozzle height, the 6-8" opening with 2" connections, would have to be cut and welded quite low on the keg, to keep top of flange identical to the configuration.

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Also another modification to the plan, instead of a liebig coming off the pre-heat, I'm going to put together a Twisted Brick Shotgun, which is very much overkill for the pre-heat, it does give me a good excuse for another fun condenser build, who doesn't want a shotgun, and it will allow me to swap out the trombone condenser if need be. Also considering making a quick modification/transition for my copper kentucky pot-still, to use one of these two condensers instead of the flake-stand that it uses, which is pretty ineffective, due to it's small size and water capacity. I make-do by slowly flooding it, and suspending it over a bucket to collect the overflow, it is a bit of a messy situation.

I am glad that I listened to this group about Modular design, my inability to not tinker with things makes modular hard to beat.

I am also taking a deep-freeze in our basement, that stopped working, fixing it back up (Compressor runs, but doesn't cool and bumps can cause the compressor to turn off until I kick the freezer or drop it slightly. My guess is loose wiring and perhaps needs re-charged with coolant, not sure just yet) and turning it into a Fermenting Chamber. For those that don't know, you basically get a $30 controller from amazon that has a temp probe, and two outlets, one for cooling and one for heating. When the temp says it's below or above a temp/range that you set, it turns on the respective equipment, that is plugged into said controller. So if it gets too cold, the space heater kicks on, placed inside the deep-freeze. If it gets too hot, the deep freeze kicks on and does it's thing, until the temp range is satisfied. Sounds pretty common with mid-serious home beer brewers, and since I've got things handy, figured I'd give it a go. Also with the deep freeze being more or less "sealed" I will open top ferment with more confidence, as to before where I had a BIAB clamped over the top, in a house with 3 kids, 4 dogs and 3 cats running around.

For the mashing side of things, moving from a 7.5 gallon pot to a keg, will allow more ease in cooking. Should be able to cook with the steam-boiler keg, but not 100% sure on the procedure for that, how much water to use in the pot, how much water to account for from the steam, etc. Have also considered just adding an electric element to a cooking pot and using a false bottom with BIAB, but if I want to cook/ferment in the same vessel, I don't want a heating element in there the whole time either.

/rambling.
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Forgot to post the temperature control box I'm brainstorming as well.

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The dual thermometers are something like $15 each, and while I operate my pot-still with no temperature readings, and on a stripping run, it hardly matters as long as you can knock all the vapor down, It seems like it could be some good data. Give me the temp readings at each keg, and then a couple water temp readings to get an idea of how efficient that system is. And how it changes over the years according to the season/ambient temp.

The pump would be nicer with a switch anyways, rather than using the plug for on/off.
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Wrapped up the control box, long time coming. Wasn't happy with the box first go around, the CNC settings were poor so I melted the plastic more than cut it, so the resulting holes were incorrect sizes. Used the old box for practice to dial in the settings and then re-cut the layout on a new box. Went much smoother.
Wired it up this weekend. Need to double check the wiring one last time, had too much going on with Easter Weekend, up and down too much.

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Snagged two of these old seed treaters off of the farm. Stainless Steel, 10-gallon max capacity, with an agitator and pump mounted to the top. Not 100% sure what the plans are for them, but hard to pass up. Gustafson made them, they kept the herbacide in suspension while you operated an auger or drill and would coat the seeds with whatever you were wanting. Considering re-purposing the agitators for my keg mash tuns. Also considering making stands for the brackets on the side, and mount a burner underneath, replace some gaskets and parts, but at the very least make mash tuns out of them. May look at using them for small batches of beer.

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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by Yummyrum »

According to that schematic , the Fan and meter are after the SSRV . The fan will stop if you turn the power down . The meter will have a very short life also .
Best to wire these before the SSRV
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Yummyrum wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:48 pm According to that schematic , the Fan and meter are after the SSRV . The fan will stop if you turn the power down . The meter will have a very short life also .
Best to wire these before the SSRV
Not sure I follow you. The meter needs to read the power that has been modulated/changed, so it needs to be on the line after the relay. The power supply to the meter is on the opposite side of the switch, as the incoming power. If I were to put it on the other side of the switch, then the meter (and fan) would turn on, as soon as my box was plugged into the wall, regardless of if I have used the switch or not?

The fan, Meter and any other line (black 220 from the heating element, and the purple from the SSR) are all connected to one another, at the end, with a spade end. I can't get them any closer to "before" the SSR than they are, and still be on this side of the switch.

The fan is rated 110-240v (Need to update that on the sketch I suppose) and the meter is rated 80-260v
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by Yummyrum »

Ever heard of a brown out ? ( the term comes from days back when we had incandescent light globes …. with low voltage , they glowed a dim brown ) Thats when electrical things get less voltage than they were designed to run at .Instead of motors turning , they just sit there and burn out .

Thats what will happen to your fan .

Now the meter is a quirky little fucker .
You are quite right in thinking that to work correctly , it needs to be in the output side of the SSRV . But the world isn’t a fair place .
When these chinese meters are connected to a SSRV , they don’t get a nice 80v sinewave minimum voltage , but instead a nasty chopped up sinewave that may have an RMS value of 80v. The power supply components in the meter very quickly shit themselves when exposed to choppy waveform at lower settings .

This is why it has been found to keep the smoke in them , you connect them to input if SSRV . Yes , they won’t read voltage correctly . The current reading will still be usable .
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Interesting. So I need to wire the power for the fan and power for the meter, on the in-bound side of the switch. So they will turn on as soon as I plug into the wall.

The meter ring, needs to read the power before the SSR, after the switch. This won't tell me the actual voltage, but it will still display a change, as I mess with the dials, so they are still useful in a sense, just not correct.

Is this how everyone runs these, or did I just order less than ideal parts? I appreciate the help!
"In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier
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BlueSasquatch
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

Post by BlueSasquatch »

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Re-drew to fit the layout better, tried to show the changes you mention Yummyrum, let me know how this looks.

Thanks,
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

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Slow going. With immense help from Twisted, was able to piece together a shotgun condenser. Very stout and heavy.

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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

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Also, picked up two more 15 gallon kegs. Used a bottle of OOPS adhesive remover and a wire cup on an angle grinder, and a few hours to clean the exterior. Then tossed some Oxy-clean inside, soaked them and rinsed them.

(4) 15 Gallons
(3) 13 Gallons - idk its smaller, eruo vs american?

Will turn the 3 smaller ones into mash-tuns, will mash AND ferment in them.

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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

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You scored some good shit Blue :thumbup:
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Re: Stripping Keg Boiler with Thumper Build

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Yummyrum wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:55 pm You scored some good shit Blue :thumbup:
Up until this shotgun, I've been using the blue torch gas, which I've since learned, doesn't get hot enough easily for the silver solder, so I've since switched to yellow and it has made a world of difference. Anything under 2" I feel pretty confident on. The 2" size still gives me alot of trouble. On the shotgun It took me about 8 times leak testing to get it good. Now it never leaked running a hose through the coolant side, until I plugged the outbound with my thumb mostly, to generate pressure, and then I had some pinholes, that would just cause more issues as I heated things up to address the first hole. Anyways, easy in concept, bit trickier in execution. I've given everything a vinegar soak to get off the ridiculous amount of flux I had used. Damn thing probably took me a month with what hours I could squeeze in here and there, only ruined a couple parts in the process. Mostly through rage.

Fun, now that it's over. Gonna get a wheat mash fermenting soon. Just need to get a cover worked up for the heating element, but should be ready to clean and run it all soon.

Too easy to put off until other things are in-place.
"In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier
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