Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

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coachkdm
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Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by coachkdm »

I'm trying to make a worm with 1/2 tubing. I've packed with sand and am going to try to anneal it since I bought type L cooper. I'm not construction savvy but am getting better. I was planning on wrapping the cooper around a gallon paint can so the worm will fit in a 5 gallon bucket. What suggestion do you have for holding down paint.can. I tried a vise grip but it got in the way. Any suggestions would be great.
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Not sure
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by Not sure »

When I made my worm 2 years ago I used a piece of 4inch PVC pipe to wrap it around but that's just what I had on hand. I've since updated my condenser to a shotgun style
Stainless pot with copper shotgun I'm a simple kind of guy
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Deplorable
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by Deplorable »

Not sure wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:02 am When I made my worm 2 years ago I used a piece of 4inch PVC pipe to wrap it around but that's just what I had on hand. I've since updated my condenser to a shotgun style
This would be my first choice. I'd also look for 1/2 coiled tubing, not pipe. It will be soft enough to work with. Or go with 3/8"
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Yummyrum
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by Yummyrum »

To anneal a length of 1/2” will require a fare amount of heat . It needs to be heated to cherry red hot . You’ll need an oxy torch or at least several MAPP gas canisters and about a few hours . Pre-heating on a LPG gas burner while you apply the MAPP torch will help significantly .

Or save it for making a shot gun condenser and go buy a coil of annealed stuff .

+1 on using 100mm PVC pipe .
Butch27
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by Butch27 »

This seems like an appropriate thread for this quote as I am getting the feeling that people are using the terms "pipe" and "tubing" interchangeably. They are definitely not the same.
Usge wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:26 pm Copper Pipe/Tube:
Although the two terms can sometimes be used interchangeably, there is a difference between "Pipe" (also called nominal) size and "Tube" size and how it's measured. Tube size is normally the actual outside diameter, or O.D. Nominal pipe size is always 1/8" larger in actual outside diameter (O.D.) than the standard/stated size designation. So, 1/4" (nominal/pipe) is actually 1/4+1/8= 3/8 O.D. — and visa-versa. This can present some confusion, specifically when trying to match up components, unions, fittings and pipe of varying sizes — not to mention the fact that the terms pipe and tube are often used interchangeably. The important difference to know is whether the tube/pipe or fitting you are using is measured "nominally"? Or by O.D.? Then make adjustments accordingly.

There are several grades of copper pipe and tube, but the most common you might find for our use are:
K is thickest and heaviest and most expensive, but fine to use where the weight would not be as much a consideration. (Usually stamped green)

L/ACR is thick, but lighter than K,fairly heavy walled. Good all-around general use and commonly found. (Usually stamped blue)

M is thinner, lighter, and also cheaper. Thinner copper tends to heat/cool faster. Is good for our purposes, but particularly for liebigs where you don't want the weight, and the thin walls make good temperature gradients. It's also much easier to solder/braze in larger sizes. (Usually stamped red)

DWV which is for "drain and vent" (non-pressurized) purposes, is thinnest walled and cheapest. It typically only comes in rigid pipe in limited size range from 1¼ inch to 8 inches. (Usually stamped yellow)* DWV is fine for our purposes, and can save you a bundle when dealing with larger diameter sized pipe as well on the fittings. It sometimes has a max temp rating printed on the side of the pipe. This is actually a pressure rating which has nothing to do for our use. You can ignore it.

The above are usually offered in hard temper/rigid (straight lengths usually 5' or 10') or Soft (coil) *with the exception of DWV which is only available in rigid pipe and limited sizes. Soft coil sizes of the grades above may include both O.D. and I.D./nominal measurements on the package. As mentioned, you can solder either one (hard or annealed/soft) and use standard copper fittings on them. Just be sure to get your soldered copper fittings in the same nominal size as your pipe. If you are using 1" nominal pipe, use 1" fittings, etc. If you are using compression fittings, you'll want to match the outside diameter of your pipe/tube. If you don't have O.D., just remember to buy the compression fittings 1/8" larger than the pipe size you are using. eg: 1/2" nominal pipe, use 5/8" compression fitting.

Types K, L, M are designated by ASTM standard (nominal) sizes, with the actual outside diameter always 1/8-inch larger than the standard size designation. Each type represents a series of sizes with different wall thicknesses. All inside diameters depend on tube size and wall thickness. As a result, when mixing pipe sizes/types together, it's usually a better fit, tighter joint, to use a reducer between them, rather than trying to fit one inside the other — although that can sometimes work as well depending on your needs.

Copper tube for air-conditioning and refrigeration field service (ACR) is normally designated by actual outside diameter (O.D.) but may also have nominal size or internal wall thickness listed as well. 1/4" OD coil of this type is typically used to make reflux condenser coils. The more you work soft copper, the stiffer it gets. You can anneal or re-anneal any copper (pipe/tube), including those listed above, by heating it to red, then cooling it. This will soften the area and make it more pliable again. This can be done several times as needed. Any of the above copper can be used. The important thing to remember is how its sized vs whatever fittings you wish to use. (ie. whether your fitting is measured in the same OD size, or whether it's from nominal size). Just make sure you adjust for any sizing differences as needed.

Here's a size chart that may help:
image.png
Copper Fittings:
Fittings are sized nominally, and are generally designated by their type and ends. The most basic types of ends for a fitting are "C" (socket), FTG (pipe size), Mips (Male pipe threads on outside of fitting end), Fips (female pipe threads on inside of fitting). Standard C socket ends will accept the designated nominal pipe size. FTG, same as pipe size, will fit inside another C or socket fitting..handy when you want to join to different fittings but don't want to use pipe in between. There are many different types of nominal sized fittings to choose from.... couplers with stops, coupler with no stops, reducing fittings, elbows, caps, etc. These fittings will work fine with O.D. spec'd copper tube, just remember to adjust for the size difference by subtracting 1/8" from your starting O.D. size, to find the corresponding nominal sized fitting. Compression couplings/fittings are normally measured O.D. So, if you are using one of these with nominal I.D. pipe, be sure to add 1/8" to accommodate nominal sizing differences (ie., 1/2" nominal pipe is actually 5/8" O.D.).

(Hat tip to Husker and member ozone39)
coachkdm
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by coachkdm »

I started with 1/2 inch coiled tubing it didn't fit in my bucket. I was trying tighten it when I ran into trouble with kinking. I thought if I heated it some it would be easier to bend. I'll look into the shotgun condensor. I only have a 1 gallon pot and the condensor it came with is a lot smaller. The goal is to build a pot still and thumper. I figured I would start with the worm. I will research the shotgun. The worm build looked a lot easier on the videos. Thanks for the advice. I'll also try the pvc pipe to wrap around.
coachkdm
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by coachkdm »

Yummyrum wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:26 pm To anneal a length of 1/2” will require a fare amount of heat . It needs to be heated to cherry red hot . You’ll need an oxy torch or at least several MAPP gas canisters and about a few hours . Pre-heating on a LPG gas burner while you apply the MAPP torch will help significantly .

Or save it for making a shot gun condenser and go buy a coil of annealed stuff .

+1 on using 100mm PVC pipe .
I thought I might need the oxy torch but figured of it was annealled already, it might not take as much heat.
Butch27
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by Butch27 »

I used a conduit bender to do my worm which is in a 5 gal bucket. It is 1/2in soft tubing (3/8in ID). It worked well with no issues.
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acfixer69
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by acfixer69 »

For what it's worth, annealing copper tubing for bending is not like steel working. Heating a foot or so and bending as you pull will work if it is sand filled and properly capped. Copper is so soft when heated. Too soft to bend at cherry red and melts, blow through, has been my experience.
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cranky
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by cranky »

Is there a reason you don't want to make a liebig? It seems like you are going through a whole lot of time, trouble and effort when you could make a simple liebig and be done with it.
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contrahead
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by contrahead »

Quote: "Any suggestions would be great".

GOOGLE "copper pipe bending springs" - or-
Go to the hardware store and get some bending springs.

https://www.maxwarehouse.com/products/c ... w%20Margin
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acfixer69
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by acfixer69 »

contrahead wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:25 am Quote: "Any suggestions would be great".

GOOGLE "copper pipe bending springs" - or-
Go to the hardware store and get some bending springs.

https://www.maxwarehouse.com/products/c ... w%20Margin
Bending springs are OK for a small offset and maybe get lucky and go to 90 but no way a coil.
Butch27
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by Butch27 »

I keep wondering what the big deal is here. Maybe the OP is trying to make too tight of a coil for a 5 gallon bucket. If you make it to just fit inside the bucket I don't think you would have to make it as tight as 5 inches. It could be more like 8 or 10 inches.
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contrahead
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

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coachkdm
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by coachkdm »

cranky wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:44 pm Is there a reason you don't want to make a liebig? It seems like you are going through a whole lot of time, trouble and effort when you could make a simple liebig and be done with it.
I was trying to replicate what I already had. I'm still learning and I'm not sure how different designs impact the results. It doesn't look like a hard build minus my questionable soldering skills.
coachkdm
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by coachkdm »

Butch27 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:03 am I keep wondering what the big deal is here. Maybe the OP is trying to make too tight of a coil for a 5 gallon bucket. If you make it to just fit inside the bucket I don't think you would have to make it as tight as 5 inches. It could be more like 8 or 10 inches.
I was havinf problems coiling the cooper. I wasn't getting any leverage, the bucket was moving. The videos made ot look easy. I finally got it figured out. Thanks for all the advice. I'll be working on the liebig and shotgun condenser next. If anything,I try more soldering practice.
coachkdm
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Re: Trying to make a 5 inch diameter worm

Post by coachkdm »

Butch27 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:03 am I keep wondering what the big deal is here. Maybe the OP is trying to make too tight of a coil for a 5 gallon bucket. If you make it to just fit inside the bucket I don't think you would have to make it as tight as 5 inches. It could be more like 8 or 10 inches.
I was having problems coiling the cooper. I wasn't getting any leverage, the bucket was moving. The videos made it look easy. I finally got it figured out. Thanks for all the advice. I'll be working on the liebig and shotgun condenser next. If anything, I'll get more soldering practice.
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