New column - no actual science, just ideas

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Biff_McNielly
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New column - no actual science, just ideas

Post by Biff_McNielly »

So as I’ve stated before I’ve had a few different stills, the current one which I’ve owned the longest is a 13 gallon milk can with a 3 inch pot still arm that is over 10 years old that I got on eBay from moonshine distillers. From run 1 I’ve never liked much about it. I’ve tried to make adjustments to how I run it and no matter what, for me it just doesn’t float my boat. In the beginning it was a lot of lack of knowledge I will admit that but as I learned how to operate a still, the fact that stills do need copper and mine was 100% stainless ( hence the rotten egg smell the 1st run) and so on. So after a few years I finally just gave up and put it all on a shelf in the garage. Lately I’ve had the urge to get back to it so I’ve been looking at upgrading the column portion of my still. I’m still undecided as to exactly what I want but I do know whatever I get I want to be well made and to work without needing a PHD to use it. I’ve been off work the last few weeks on medical leave and really bored so the interwebs have got the best of me. I went out to the garage and dug out the pieces of random copper pipe and fittings I’ve been collecting for a while and then went on a Amazon shopping spree! This is what I came up with…

This was built out of absolute boredom. I know it will work but how well remains to be seen. I put no math or science into the length or anything like that. Just kinda went with what I had. My solder joints aren’t the best as I haven’t soldered pipe in years but I’ve seen worse and these will do the job lol. I’d like to hear your thoughts on this thing and how you think it will actually run?

Here are the specs:

3” x 2” reducer off the kettle
12”x 2” copper pipe that will be packed with copper mesh
2”x1” copper reducer
18”x 1” copper pipe up to a 1.5 stainless ferrule
1.5” sight glass containing a dephlegamator made of 9 feet of coiled 1/8” copper tubing.
There are a few 1” copper fittings to get water lines to the dephlegamator, the lyne arm, and put a thermometer in the top. There is a total of 10” of 1” pipe above the sight glass leading to the arm.
Lyne arm is 3/4” copper
3/4” x 1/2” elbow
Down to a 42” long X 1/2” Liebig condenser.

Couple of side notes. I went with a 1.5” sight glass because I didn’t want to have to go much bigger than the 1” pipe I already had. I used 1/8” tubing for the dephlegamator because anything bigger wouldn’t really fit in the sight glass. I made the condenser so long because I’ve had issues with my current condenser which is very short not being very efficient so I wanted overkill!
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Salt Must Flow
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Re: New column - no actual science, just ideas

Post by Salt Must Flow »

What kind of product do you intend to make?
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Stonecutter
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Re: New column - no actual science, just ideas

Post by Stonecutter »

So what’s the length of your 1/8” coil? What’s the length of pipe above your top tee? I’m wondering why you didn’t add that coil to the top like a CCVM? If that’s more of the coil sticking out above your sight glass your would have had plenty to make a long enough coil for reflux on top and you could have saved yourself a tee. Like SMF asked, I suppose it all depends on what you want to make. Either way there’s quite a bit of…extra happening. That Liebig is huge and it looks like you’re running electric if that’s the cord I see wrapped around the milk can. I’m a green horn but if you’re looking to avoid a PHD to run the thing you sure used some kind of Dr. Frankenstein PHD to build it.
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Biff_McNielly
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Re: New column - no actual science, just ideas

Post by Biff_McNielly »

Stonecutter wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 4:37 pm So what’s the length of your 1/8” coil? What’s the length of pipe above your top tee? I’m wondering why you didn’t add that coil to the top like a CCVM? If that’s more of the coil sticking out above your sight glass your would have had plenty to make a long enough coil for reflux on top and you could have saved yourself a tee. Like SMF asked, I suppose it all depends on what you want to make. Either way there’s quite a bit of…extra happening. That Liebig is huge and it looks like you’re running electric if that’s the cord I see wrapped around the milk can. I’m a green horn but if you’re looking to avoid a PHD to run the thing you sure used some kind of Dr. Frankenstein PHD to build it.

I mainly plan to use this to make neutral spirits…

The total length of the coil is 9 feet and the entire coil is in the sight glass. There is just the 2 lines ran into the column and out the T. I actually put alot of thought into this when I built it. The reason I ran the lines out of the T fitting rather than out the top was I wanted to be able to accurately measure the temperature of the distillate as it enters the arm. My thought is if the cooling lines were ran through there then they would obviously have some kind of effect on the temperature. As far as the arm, well I was just trying to get the condenser away from the kettle. It is electric but I have been known to throw it on a burner for cleaning runs.

And the kettle has been electric since I bought it lol. That part I’m used to. I knew it wasn’t simple in that aspect when I originally bought that still but I liked eliminating the potential risk of explosion.


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Biff_McNielly
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Re: New column - no actual science, just ideas

Post by Biff_McNielly »

I did forget to mention that I built this thing with various ideas in mind. Like the placement of my dephlegamator and the diameter of the tube it’s made out of for instance. I don’t have a whole lot of money into it so I figured I would try it and see what works, if I find a problem I may change things around and try again. I’m more of a learn through doing kinda person. I know I will never reinvent the wheel but hopefully I can find a happy medium. That’s why I posted it here, hoping to get some actual constructive criticism and to share my experiences with this wacky thing.
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Salt Must Flow
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Re: New column - no actual science, just ideas

Post by Salt Must Flow »

If you plan on making neutral spirits, your column really should be full of an efficient packing and a whole lot taller. I'd honestly suggest studying modern reflux columns because they work a whole lot better these days. I'm not shitting on what you've made though I know it sounds like I am. It will work, but will likely produce lower ABV than it could and it would likely run a whole lot slower than it could too.
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Re: New column - no actual science, just ideas

Post by Biff_McNielly »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:00 pm If you plan on making neutral spirits, your column really should be full of an efficient packing and a whole lot taller. I'd honestly suggest studying modern reflux columns because they work a whole lot better these days. I'm not shitting on what you've made though I know it sounds like I am. It will work, but will likely produce lower ABV than it could and it would likely run a whole lot slower than it could too.
I plan to pack the 2” section of pipe with copper mesh. I have a bunch of rolls of it left. My thoughts are to fill the entire 12 inch section with it.
It’s taller than it looks in the picture I think. It’s just at 50 inches from the bottom of the copper to the arm. I thought I read along time ago that reflux stills should be 20x longer than their diameter. I don’t know what exactly this is but I have that formula beat by a long shot lol.
I appreciate hearing what others think and know. I’m really curious how this thing is actually going to work even on a cleaning run.
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Re: New column - no actual science, just ideas

Post by Setsumi »

The 20x diameter is gor the packed section where redistilations happens. So your pack section should be about 40" long.
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Re: New column - no actual science, just ideas

Post by Tummydoc »

40 inches of packed 2inch pipe is the rule of thumb, you've got 12. I think the smaller diameter above is going to have pretty rapid vapor speed and not provide great separation. Don't think you'll ever produce a neutral product with this, but it may make a decent single run whiskey/rum still since your only going to have a few theoretical plates. I think its going to be awfully finicky, and then you add coolant management which i believe is more temperamental than liquid or vapor management. Since you've made it, may as well try it. I'd start with an all grain whiskey. May be painfully slow to get decent ABV.
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Re: New column - no actual science, just ideas

Post by Biff_McNielly »

I just realized that I have a few lbs of ceramic raschig rings that came with my original pot still that I never used. I am wondering if there would be any benefit at all to putting them in the 1” section of column between the copper mesh in the 2” section and the sight glass?
My thoughts are, yes it will but I’ve never seen it attempted with that small of pipe. I’m wondering how much it would slow things down? Mind you I’m just spitballing and have no actually experience to base this off of lol…
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Yummyrum
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Re: New column - no actual science, just ideas

Post by Yummyrum »

Yes , its extra packing and below the deflagmator coil . So it will help raise your ABV if that is what you are wanting .

If you put it above the deflagmator coil , it would be to no advantage .

Only potential disadvantage I see is that it may become a choke point . By this I mean , the vapour speed will be a lot higher though it than the 2” section . The condensed reflux may get held up and it starts to flood .
The solution is to turn down the power , but then you waste the potential of all the packing in the 2” section .

So give it a go , but if you need ti reduce the power from using just the 2” section packed to stop it flooding , it may be a hindrance rather than a help .

If on the other hand , it doesn’t flood at the same power you use on the 2” packed only section , then you are going to be ahead .
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Re: New column - no actual science, just ideas

Post by bunny »

Biff_McNielly wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:52 pm I’d like to hear your thoughts on this thing and how you think it will actually run?
Hi Biff!
I have just spent two years experimenting with 1" copper.
I'm pretty much finished with that experiment and research.
I fear you will be so disappointed that shortly you will put this thing back on the shelf again.
If you seriously want to make some neutral I advise you to stop right now and rethink this whole project.

You appear to have a very nice boiler.
I would attach your linn arm and liebig right to the top of the empty 2" riser to make a stripping pot still.
Next I would construct a 3" X 48" (or 60") Boka or similar filled with proper sized lava/scoria.
You would now have excellent tools to make a fair amount of neutral.


Can you post a pic of the other stuff you had on the shelf?
You may have something else that might be useful.
Good Luck, bunny
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Re: New column - no actual science, just ideas

Post by Biff_McNielly »

Update,
After finally finishing, building a controller, cleaning, making the decision to go to a smaller boiler and using a 5 gallon keg I had and all that, re cleaning, and vinegar run… if I finally ran 5 gallons of just basic turbo wash through this thing as a sacrificial cleaning run. This was the recipe on the package left for just over 48 hours. Didn’t bother measuring the alcohol content because I was just using it for cleaning. I ran it with no packing in the column and no water running through the coil at the top of the column. I ran it slow and didn’t push it at all. Even without water running through the coil I could visibly see reflux in the sight glass. After coming up to temp and tossing the heads out of habit I got 2 full quarts that were 170 proof (corrected temp) then because I was purely curious I kept measuring the proof with a hydrometer, I got 1 more quart that dropped from 170 down to 160. Then started running into the tails very slowly. I didn’t bother collecting anything less then 120 proof because I knew everything was throughly cleaned out and I was tired!

Overall I would say that this thing ran considerably better then I thought it would and I was impressed with what I saw. I can’t wait to put something decent through it and see what I get.
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Re: New column - no actual science, just ideas

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Would have been a good idea to put the packing in the column....it might need a good clean too, depending on what it is.
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Re: New column - no actual science, just ideas

Post by Biff_McNielly »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:47 am Would have been a good idea to put the packing in the column....it might need a good clean too, depending on what it is.
Was a total brain fart on my end. The plan is copper mesh, which I have but I honestly don’t know what I was thinking.
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