Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

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Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Prairiepiss » Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:08 am

As part of our living off grid plan. The wife and I are wanting to learn bread making. In as many ways as we can. Eventualy starting from whole wheat berries. And milling our own flour. More then likely now growing our own. But buying whole wheat berries in bulk. And milling as needed.

I just spent the morning learning the difference between all the different flours. Bread, cake, pastry, and all purpose. Only to realize its knowledge I had already gathered from here on HD. :lol: Bread flour being a high gluten flower made from hard wheat. Cake/pastry flour being made from a high starch soft wheat. All purpose being a mix of the two. This is the same and or shows which wheat is better for mashing and higher starch content. Anyway back to bread making.

We have been experimenting with regular old white bread. We have a ace in the whole. My father in-law has been baking bread for a very long time. And has been giving us his recipes and help. My wife says when she was growing up. He baked two loaves every morning. I have only had the opportunity to try his bread. Why camping. Where he baked it before the trip. And used it to make French toast while camping. My wife kept telling me that one of her fondest memorys was having fresh hot bread in the morning. I've had fresh baked. But never hot out of the oven. And damn its good. We have finally kinda figured out the oven in the motorhome. We have been using it knowing that what we will be using on the homestead. The temps are a little high. And after 10 or so loaves. I think we have it figured out pretty good. Instead of using a thermometer. We did it the ol fashioned way. Experimenting. Lowering the temp for each batch. Finding the hot spots in the oven also. We have found that its about 35 deg f to hot by the knob. And the right side is hotter. So making two loaves per batch. We have to rotate the two two times. Bake time is 30 min. And we swap and rotate at 10 and 20 min. This is giving us a nice even Browning. And they are pretty even. Of course that's all we can fit in it at one time. Since its a small RV oven. But two loaves has been enough for a day. Anyway here are some pics of our first attempts. As you can see we had a little problem with them falling a little. We had been making the dough and letting it rise in the house. Then taking it out to the motorhome to bake. The last few were done out there. So they are much better. But I didn't get any pics of them.
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We already have some good recipes for the normal breads. But we would like to collect a few more. And some other styles. I particularly am looking for a specific bread recipe. But I don't know exactly what it is called. I only remember it from my travels. While I was in Saudi we would fly into Kuwait. And they had a sweet bread there. That was to die for. Everyone just called it sugar bread. It was a round loaf. Much like a white bread. But it had like sugar crystals inside it. Like little pockets of sweetness distributed throughout it. My memory of it has faded a bit. Since it was 20 years ago. But I do remember it was some damn fine eats. I thought maybe the vast knowledge of the forum members. Someone mite know a little more about this bread.

But if anyone has any other good bread recipes. I would love for you to share them. Especially if they involve goats milk and butter. Since that is what we will have available. Not opposed to sourdough. Just haven't gotten that far into it yet. Will get more into that later.
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Nutmegmooner » Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:25 am

Lately I have been using a recipe from a book "Flour Water Salt Yeast" by a guy named Ken Forkish. He's a little anal (well, maybe not by the standards of some I've come to know and love here) but his recipes make a nice loaf. Baked in an extremely hot preheated dutch oven. I don't always mix by hand.

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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by jedneck » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:34 pm

Home baked bread and home made butter, the ultimate comfort food.
My whole wheat bisquits
2 cups whole wheat flour
2 table spoons baking powder
1 teaspoon salt
1 stick cold butter
Milk
Mix dry ingredients
Cut butter into dry mix till small crumbs
Stir in milk to disired consistacy
I am lazy and make drop biscuits but not as much milk can make rolled biscuits. Bake in hot oven till done. I have also made them on a griddle over a camp fire. Also make good pancakes.
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by WhiteDevil504 » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:00 pm

Hey PP in regards to the sugar bread was it just sweet or was there other flavors (ground pistachio, or almond, rose water, sesame oil, etc? Also was it entirely smooth bread or did it have a course texture like it had some semolina?There were a few sweet bread dishes that I tried when I was just north of Kuwait. The few times I've been in Kuwait I didn't get a chance to eat local food so I don't know if I'm thinking along the same lines. Sounds like something worth finding the recipe for regardless, please share if you find it! I miss middle eastern food.

For general bread I know it's not sexy but I love jimmy lahey's no knead recipe, I use it for a basic loaf, baguettes and for pizza dough and I think it's fast enough for a daily loaf without the crazy effort....I am sure it's not as good as your fathers recipe but it's fun one to play with.

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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Prairiepiss » Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:21 pm

I don't remember the bread itself being overly sweet. Maybe a touch sweet. But its hard to remember. But I think the sweetness mainly came from the sugar crystals inside it. I don't think it was flavored with anything. I kinda remember the crust looking like it was glazed with something. Maybe a butter glaze. Kinda shiny. But I don't remember it being sweet. Again I could be wrong. I also don't remember the crust being hard. More of a soft easy to tear. That's how we ate it. And you could easily pull a piece off.
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Prairiepiss » Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:56 pm

rockchucker22 wrote:Egg white glaze.
Maybe?
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by WhiteDevil504 » Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:14 pm

Interesting, I have a pile of middle eastern cookbooks. I will take a look and see if anything stands out as a possibility. If I do find something i'll list it here. Have you had challah bread (http://www.klingersbread.com/Challah-Bread.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)? Just curious if it's similar. Did you have a chance do have their sahmoon sandwiches (kinda like a pita) with falafel when you were over there? I used to get those all the time with some magical spicy yellow sauce (not mustard), I have literally had dreams about eating it again, I just can't dial in the yellow sauce..... Sad sad sad

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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Prairiepiss » Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:28 pm

I fell in love with shawarmas. There were shawarma stands on every other corner. I didn't get the onions and cucumber sauce. But they were good. Closest thing I have found here are gyros. There was a place right down the street that had shawarmas. But it was frozen meat reheated in the microwave. Was not impressed with it. Little off topic. But I would like to try pita bread.

I want to build a wood fired cob oven. For pizza and breads. I haven't decided on a design yet. Once we get settled in. I will look into it. I mite build a outdoor wood fired regular oven. Metal enclosed with racks. This would all be part of a full outside kitchen.

I've never heard of challah bread.
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by WhiteDevil504 » Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:07 pm

Sorry didn't mean to derail your thread, I just get fired up over good food. I am actually working on a post on home pizza both in the oven and on a modified weber kettle grill. Hopefully I'll have time to get it up soon, while it doesn't beat a true woodfired oven I can have it at 800 degrees in an hour and ready to rock with a half a chimney of charcoal and a small bundle of oak firewood ripped into 6" logs. Anyway sorry for the detour, here is a pita recipe I have had great luck with (not mine, from a website called smitten kitchen,she does great stuff.


*************************************
Pita Bread
Adapted from The Bread Bible

3 cups plus a scant 1/4 cup unbleached all-purpose flour (16 oz./454 grams)
2 teaspoons salt (1/2 oz./13.2 grams)
2 teaspoons instant yeast (6.4 grams)
2 tablespoons olive oil (1 oz./27 grams)
1 1/4 cups water, at room temperature (10.4 oz./295 grams)

1. About 1 1/2 hours before shaping, or for best flavor development, 8 hours to 3 days ahead, mix the dough.

Mixer method: In the bowl of a stand mixer, combine all the ingredients. With the paddle attachment, mix on low speed (#2 if using a KitchenAid) just until all the flour is moistened, about 20 seconds. Change to the dough hook, raise the speed to medium (#4 KitchenAid), and knead for 10 minutes. The dough should clean the bowl and be very soft and smooth and just a little sticky to the touch. Add a little flour or water if necessary. (the dough will weigh about 27.75 oz./793 grams.)

Hand method: In a large bowl, combine all the ingredients except for a scant 1/4 cup of the flour. With a wooden spoon or your hand, mix until all the flour is moistened. Knead the dough in the bowl until it comes together.

Sprinkle a little of the reserved flour onto the counter and scrape the dough onto it. Knead the dough for 5 minutes, adding as little of the reserved flour as possible. Use a bench scraper to scrape the dough and gather it together as you knead it. At this point it will be very sticky. Cover it with the inverted bowl and allow it to rest for 5 to 20 minutes. (This rest will make the dough less sticky and easier to work with.)

Knead the dough for another 5 to 10 minutes or until it is soft and smooth and just a little sticky to the touch. Add a little flour or water if necessary. (The dough will weigh about 27.75 oz./793 grams.)

2. Let the dough rise: Using an oiled spatula or dough scraper, scrape the dough into a 2-quart or larger dough-rising container or bowl, lightly greased with cooking spray or oil. Press the dough down and lightly spray or oil the top of it. Cover the container with a lid or plastic wrap. With a piece of tape, mark the side of the container at approximately where double the height of the dough would be. Refrigerate the dough overnight (or up to 3 days), checking every hour for the first 4 hours and pressing it down if it starts to rise.

3. Preheat the oven: Preheat the oven to 475°F one hour before baking. Have an oven shelf at the lowest level and place a baking stone, cast-iron skillet, or baking sheet on it before preheating.

4. Shape the dough: Cut the dough into 8 or 12 pieces. Work with one piece at a time, keeping the rest covered with a damp cloth. On a lightly floured counter, with lightly floured hands, shape each piece into a ball and then flatten it into a disk. Cover the dough with oiled plastic and allow it to rest for 20 minutes at room temperature.

Roll each disk into a circle a little under 1/4 inch thick. Allow them to rest, uncovered, for 10 minutes before baking.

5. Bake the pita: Quickly place 1 piece of dough directly on the stone or in the skillet or on the baking sheet, and bake for 3 minutes. The pita should be completely puffed but not beginning to brown. The dough will not puff well if it is not moist enough. See how the pita puffs, then, if necessary, spray and knead each remaining piece with water until the dough is soft and moist; allow to rest again and reroll as before.* (However, those that do not puff well are still delicious to eat.)

* After my first pita didn’t puff well, and I realized I was too lazy to spritz and reroll and rise each remaining pita, I instead spritzed each rolled-out pita with water two or three minutes before baking it. It worked magically — all of the remaining pitas puffed perfectly. Try this method first if yours don’t puff, if it doesn’t work to you, revert to Beranbaum’s suggestion of kneading the extra moisture in.

Proceed with the remaining dough, baking 3 or 4 pieces at a time if using a stone or baking sheet. using a pancake turner, transfer the pita breads to a clean towel, to stay soft and warm. Allow the oven to reheat for 5 minutes between batches. The pitas can be reheated for about 30 seconds in a hot oven before serving.

To cook the pitas on the stove top: Preheat a griddle or cast-iron skillet over medium-high heat. Lightly grease the surface and cook the pitas one at a time. Cook for about 20 seconds, then turn the dough and continue cooking for 1 minute or until big bubbles appear. Turn the dough again and cook until the dough balloons. If the dough begins to brown, lower the heat. The entire cooking process for each pita should be about 3 minutes.

Whole wheat variation: For a whole wheat version, use half whole wheat and half white flour. If using regular whole wheat flour, for best results, grind it very fine or process it in a food processor for 5 minutes to break the bran into smaller particles. Finely ground 100% whole wheat flour (atta), available in Middle Eastern food markets, is the finest grind available. Or, for a milder but wheatier flavor and golden color, try 100% white whole wheat flour. You will need to add 1/4 cup more water, for a total of 1 1/2 cups (12.4 oz./354 grams).

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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Prairiepiss » Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 pm

Thanks for the pita bread recipe. Will have to give it a go.

Doing some baking tonight. First up is a whole wheat honey cinnamon bread.
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Just put a couple of plain whole wheat loaves in the oven. They will be done here in a little while. The wife is making something else inside. Not sure what it is? Had chocolate in it. I guess I will see when its ready. LOL
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by SoMo » Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:09 pm

Damn that looks and sounds good I got some butter and honey.
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by googe » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:43 am

That last loaf sounds bloody yum PP!, my missus does the bread machine stuff, nothing like your doing!, will have to get her to try some of the honey one!. One of the tastiest breads I ever had was a pumpkin bread, very moist and yummy!. You gunna grow dreadlocks to look the part? :lol:
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by NZChris » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:15 am

I've been making bread nearly as long as I've been stillin. Still learning.

This no knead bread is a really easy one that my family likes. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dinin ... d=all&_r=0

No-Knead Bread

Published: November 8, 2006

Adapted from Jim Lahey, Sullivan Street Bakery

Time: About 1½ hours plus 14 to 20 hours’ rising

The Minimalist: The Secret of Great Bread: Let Time Do the Work (November 8, 2006)

3 cups all-purpose or bread flour, more for dusting
¼ teaspoon instant yeast
1¼ teaspoons salt
Cornmeal or wheat bran as needed.

1. In a large bowl combine flour, yeast and salt. Add 1 5/8 cups water, and stir until blended; dough will be shaggy and sticky. Cover bowl with plastic wrap. Let dough rest at least 12 hours, preferably about 18, at warm room temperature, about 70 degrees.

2. Dough is ready when its surface is dotted with bubbles. Lightly flour a work surface and place dough on it; sprinkle it with a little more flour and fold it over on itself once or twice. Cover loosely with plastic wrap and let rest about 15 minutes.

3. Using just enough flour to keep dough from sticking to work surface or to your fingers, gently and quickly shape dough into a ball. Generously coat a cotton towel (not terry cloth) with flour, wheat bran or cornmeal; put dough seam side down on towel and dust with more flour, bran or cornmeal. Cover with another cotton towel and let rise for about 2 hours. When it is ready, dough will be more than double in size and will not readily spring back when poked with a finger.

4. At least a half-hour before dough is ready, heat oven to 230 C Put a 6- to 8-quart heavy covered pot (cast iron, enamel, Pyrex or ceramic) in oven as it heats. When dough is ready, carefully remove pot from oven. Slide your hand under towel and turn dough over into pot, seam side up; it may look like a mess, but that is O.K. Shake pan once or twice if dough is unevenly distributed; it will straighten out as it bakes. Cover with lid and bake 30 minutes, then remove lid and bake another 15 to 30 minutes, until loaf is beautifully browned. Cool on a rack.

Yield: One 1½-pound loaf.

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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by WhiteDevil504 » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:44 am

Those are great looking loaves pp! Mine never come out as perfectly shaped, my wife always says if Sloth from Goonies was made of bread that I'd just made him.

A trick my mom taught me for a crunchy layered crust (if your going for a baguette crust) is to keep a cookie sheet in the oven on the lowest rack when you preheat and right when you put your bread in hit it with a cup of water (watch out for the steam) and close the door, do it again in 10 minutes then let it ride the rest of the time as is. I've had good success with that or with baking the lahey recipe in a Dutch oven. Again, neither has come out as perfectly shaped as yours, super jealous!

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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Bob Loblaw » Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:14 pm

Ah bread baking. Another passion of mine. Best trick I have is to bake sourdough boules in dutch oven. Heat it up with the lid on in the oven @ 500 degrees. Once it's hot, drop the bread in, put it back in the oven @450 for twenty minutes. Then take the lid off and bake @450 for another 20-25 minutes until the loaf is nice and golden brown.

You'll end up with something like this.
2014-05-03 19.06.50 (800x600).jpg
I also have a wood-fired oven in my backyard. It can turn out impressive loaves, but you need to cook 5-6 loaves at a time to get the steam levels right. Neighbors love it when I do that! If I was going off grid, I'd have a WFO for certain. Heat it up to pizza temps one day, and it retains enough heat to cook for the next three.
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Prairiepiss » Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:42 pm

Ok I've tried to post this 4 times now. I hope it posts this time. Stupid phone.

Nice loaf Bob.

An outdoor kitchen is high on our list of plans. And being able to use wood for heat is a must in that plan. I've been researching wood fired ovens most of the weekend. Although I want a pizza style wood fired oven. I also want a more modern controllable enclosed style. And I found one that has given me some inspiration. They sell kits. Bit they are really pricey for me. Especially for something I can build. Here is a pic of one they built.
DSCN4318-300x225-picsay.jpg
DSCN4318-300x225-picsay.jpg (19.88 KiB) Viewed 2768 times
It's basically a 55 gal drum with a fire box under it. And space around it for the heat from the fire to surround it. And encased with cob. They have two baking racks in them.

Like I said its an inspiration. I'm thinking about making it a little bigger. LOL
Instead of one drum. I'm thinking three. Basically add two above the one. In like a point down triangle pattern. So the rising heat that is diverted around the bottom one. Will be split and rise to the bottom of the others on each side. I'm thinking by doing this and the use of movable baffles. I can have three different baking temp ovens. I would use field stone instead of the cob.

The same people built a wood fired canner. That will do 32 quarts at a time. Which will be another features added to the outdoor kitchen.
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by cob » Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:20 pm

Prairiepiss wrote: An outdoor kitchen is high on our list of plans. And being able to use wood for heat is a must in that plan. I've been researching wood fired ovens most of the weekend. Although I want a pizza style wood fired oven. I also want a more modern controllable enclosed style. And I found one that has given me some inspiration. They sell kits. Bit they are really pricey for me. Especially for something I can build. Here is a pic of one they built.
It's basically a 55 gal drum with a fire box under it. And space around it for the heat from the fire to surround it. And encased with cob. They have two baking racks in them.
Like I said its an inspiration. I'm thinking about making it a little bigger. LOL
Instead of one drum. I'm thinking three. Basically add two above the one. In like a point down triangle pattern. So the rising heat that is diverted around the bottom one. Will be split and rise to the bottom of the others on each side. I'm thinking by doing this and the use of movable baffles. I can have three different baking temp ovens. I would use field stone instead of the cob.

The same people built a wood fired canner. That will do 32 quarts at a time. Which will be another features added to the outdoor kitchen.
what is this cob? not feed, not me :econfused: :econfused:
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Bob Loblaw » Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:21 pm

I built mine of firebrick. Works great. The design your proposing would give you a white oven too. They're supposed to be tricky to get right, look for that term. Means that the heat comes from outside the oven
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Prairiepiss » Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:33 pm

cob wrote:
what is this cob? not feed, not me :econfused: :econfused:
Cob, cobb or clom (in Wales) is a natural building material made from sand, clay,water, some kind of fibrous or organic material (straw) and earth. Cob is fireproof, resistant to seismic activity, and inexpensive.

Thanks for the search term Bob. I will have a look.

Most all searches for wood fired oven. Brought up the pizza style ovens.
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by MDH » Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:39 pm

I can make bread while asleep. Our family almost never bought bread and always made it because store bought bread would go bad too quickly.

Several years ago I learned how to make sourdough. It was trouble at first using a sourdough starter. I learned to leave it outside. Ignore the people saying there is live yeast on the grain, there likely is but it won't get the job done.

I have worked with forno ovens a lot in the last several years. You can and will eventually learn how to make pizzas at 800 degrees, but the actual way that pizzerias make their pizza is almost as complex of a subject as distilling is. You can't throw any sourdough with a good flour blend together, bake it at a bajillion degrees and have good pizza. There's a guy, Jeff Varasanos, from New York, who has a good website about it that describes it in far more detail than I'd care to. You should all go take a look.
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Prairiepiss » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:33 pm

LOL searching for white oven just gives you. Everyone selling a oven that is white in color. Duh. Had to add wood fired to find it.
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by cob » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:49 pm

Prairiepiss wrote:
Cob, cobb or clom (in Wales) is a natural building material made from sand, clay,water, some kind of fibrous or organic material (straw) and earth. Cob is fireproof, resistant to seismic activity, and inexpensive.
chinking has the same recipe, crack filler for your log cabin. thanks.
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by cob » Sun Jul 27, 2014 8:17 pm

rockchucker22 wrote:Out west we call it adobe
all of which closely approximate my best bread making attempts
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Prairiepiss » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:17 pm

LOL.

I like Adobe in the right settings. But I don't feel the Ozarks are appropriate place for Adobe.

I want to use as much stone as I can from the land. God knows we will have plenty of it. Not to say I won't maybe use Adobe or cob in the construction of it. And just face it with stone.

As for the white oven. Man there just ain't much info out there about it. Plenty on black ovens. I will just have to keep looking. But I think I may already have a good plan. May take some tweaking and experimenting. But hey what doesn't? Not real sure when this will fit into the timeline anyway.
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Bob Loblaw » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:38 am

Check out fornobravo.com and thefreshloaf.com for designs. They're probably the best sources. You may or may not want a white oven. They're good for bread baking, but you can also just pull the coals out of a "black" oven and it will work great, as long as it's hot enought

I have looked at Jeff Varasanos web site. He has done a lot of work, but I find his approach a bit over the top. Peter Reinhart has a great site on pizza and wood-oven cooking. I made the "2-minute ribeyes" for a big crowd the other night and they came out fantastic. Medium rare with a thick seared crust on both sides.
Easiest way to avoid being on a TTB list is to not purchase a boiler, full column, or condensor from a retailer. Build your own.

MDH
Distiller
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by MDH » Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:48 am

Over the top? That's why I like it. I wish I had more time, I'd go to Manhattan and explore all of the wonderful products of neurotic, obsessive, creative new yorkers just like him.
The still is not a liar. Mash and ferment quality is 99.9% of your performance.

Jday
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Jday » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:34 pm

I made a simple dome shaped cob oven 3 years ago and we make pizza and bread in it all the time. Making it was a lot of fun and the kids loved stomping the clay, sand and straw to make the mud pies. I get that same great satisfaction eating pizza and bread from that oven as I do from the drops from my still. A couple good books I've read on baking bread are "The Bread Bible" and "Bread Matters" (the state of modern bread and a diffinitve guide to baking your own)

warp1
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by warp1 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:07 pm

Seems baking bread and distilling go hand in hand....great thread PP. Now you need a wood fired boiler at the new place :)

Prairiepiss
Master Distiller
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Prairiepiss » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:26 pm

warp1 wrote:Seems baking bread and distilling go hand in hand....great thread PP. Now you need a wood fired boiler at the new place :)
That's being designed along with the ovens. It will be a combo beer brewing rig still essential oil extractor all wood fired. But don't look to see a finished product for a while.

Nice looking loaf Rock. I may have to try and swindle some of your sourdough starter from you. LOL
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Prairiepiss
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Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:42 am
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Re: Breads wanting to learn another lost art.

Post by Prairiepiss » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:37 pm

If I had an address to send it to. LOL
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