Souring (Infecting) Ferments for distilling

Research sources, reviews and links to information relating to distillation.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
Single Malt Yinzer
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 855
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:20 pm

Souring (Infecting) Ferments for distilling

Post by Single Malt Yinzer » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:50 pm

Up to this point we've been playing with allowing naturally occurring bacteria and yeast to infect our wash. I want to start exploring using specific bacteria/yeasts and understanding it effect. I have ordered some books on the subject. I also am going to start talking to people that know what they are doing with sour beers both as homebrewers and pro.

This is the start of a long journey. It will likely take a few years to really develop good processes. Anyone that wants to join in feel free.

User avatar
Single Malt Yinzer
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 855
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Souring (Infecting) Ferments for distilling

Post by Single Malt Yinzer » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:59 pm

This is the goal: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Mixed_Fermentation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Starting with a list of commonly available bacteria/yeast:

Brettanomyces - http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Brettanomyces" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Pediococcus - http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Pediococcus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Lactobacillus - http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

User avatar
diktater
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:46 pm
Location: illium, ny

Re: Souring (Infecting) Ferments for distilling

Post by diktater » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:39 pm

love the experiments! im using wyeast lambic blend to inoculate my backset with pretty good results(replacing what i draw off with fresh cooled backset) and using around 20% in my mash. i have a couple gallons on oak for a few more months yet but it has a pretty complex flavor fresh off the still compared to the same recipe(equal parts corn,oats,red wheat) with out the backset. keep us posted

User avatar
Single Malt Yinzer
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 855
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Souring (Infecting) Ferments for distilling

Post by Single Malt Yinzer » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:32 am

The one I worry most about for appropriateness is Brett. It also takes a long time for it to take off - months per what I have read. With your dunder have you noticed any Brett character? Phynolic horse/earthy/bandaid? How long do you ferment with it?

User avatar
diktater
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:46 pm
Location: illium, ny

Re: Souring (Infecting) Ferments for distilling

Post by diktater » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:44 am

i haven’t noticed any brett yet as its still pretty young at a little over a month. ive been fermenting as usual at around 7 days and letting it settle after squeezing the grains for another week. i do want to experiment with putting some dunder into some mash for a secondary souring ferment and let it go for a few months.

MtRainier
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 616
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Souring (Infecting) Ferments for distilling

Post by MtRainier » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:18 pm

I have a 5 gallon rum dunder about 6 months old which I infected with:

Pediococcus WLP661 https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wl ... s-damnosus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

and

Brett blend WLP648 https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wl ... trois-vrai" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

It has a pronounced banana scent and a dark brown pellicle on it. I don't notice much Brett in it. I recently used a gallon of it and replaced it with a gallon more dunder. It probably doesn't get too many fermentables from the dunder.

User avatar
Single Malt Yinzer
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 855
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Souring (Infecting) Ferments for distilling

Post by Single Malt Yinzer » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:44 am

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

There's a ton on there that is important, but the one aspect I feel is really huge is homofermentation vs heterofermentation.
Categories of Lactobacillus
There are three categories of Lactobacillus based on the type of fermentation they are capable of (homolactic, heterolactic, or both).

Obligatory homofermentative: Lactobacillus only perform homolactic fermentation, and thus only produce lactic acid.
Obligatory heterofermentative: Lactobacillus only perform heterolactic fermentation, and thus produce lactic acid, CO2, and ethanol (or sometimes acetic acid instead of ethanol).
Facultatively heterofermentative: Lactobacillus generally are homolactic when there is an abundance of carbohydrates, but can also perform heterolactic fermentation when carbohydrates are not abundant.
Other factors can determine if a facultative heterofermentative species uses homolactic or heterolactic fermentation. For example, L. plantarum, which is a facultatively heterofermentative species, is homolactic without the presence of oxygen. In the presence of oxygen, however, it performs heterolactic fermentation, and produces acetic acid
I spoke to Jace Marti of BlackFrost distillery and he explained it as this - homofermentive produces a single flavor profile, where heterofementive produces many flavors.

And thanks to Fizzix for finding this: http://whiskyscience.blogspot.com/2011/ ... rties.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
As brewer's yeast attenuates or even dies earlier than distiller's strain, the use of secondary strain increases the growth of lactic acid bacteria (LAB) towards the end of fermentation, which in turn lowers the pH of the wash altering the distillation process and produces specific flavours depending on the bacteria strain. One LAB strain might produce for example vinyl-guaiacol (smoky-spicy), as another produces damascenone (floral). Practically all the LAB growth results in more esters into the new-make, especially hexanoate and octanoate and decreased ethanol yield.
Here we see a reference to damascenone. Damascenone is what some very well researched people believe is "Rum Oil".
https://www.bostonapothecary.com/rum-oil-rose-ketones/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
https://scentandmolecules.wordpress.com ... e-ketones/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I'll keep updating this thread the more I find. I plan on starting to start doing more with LAB later this summer/fall.

User avatar
fizzix
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3696
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:08 pm

Re: Souring (Infecting) Ferments for distilling

Post by fizzix » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:18 pm

Will be watching, Yinz, to see where you go with this.
I just have an unreasonable aversion to nursing an infection for myself. :shock:

Post Reply