Vodka, perception, laws & loopholes.

[LB Miles]

Hey all!

First off, I wasn't sure where to post this, but I think that it's good here. I hope I'm not mistaken about this.

Second, a decently long read ahead for some of y'all, so strap down now and get ready for takeoff.

The following quoted text is from John Stone's book "making gin and vokda" which I hoped to get something from but it didn't offer me anything new other than that one surprising piece of knowledge found thereafter :

"
Vodka

To make vodka, fractional distillation equipment along the lines of that discussed in a later chapter must be used. The strong (190 proof), pure alcohol so produced is diluted with water to 40% to give vodka.
In sharp contrast to all other spirits, most vodka, particularly the vodka made in N. America, is made from pure alcohol, i.e. alcohol from which all the heads and tails have been removed. The US Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco & Firearms (BATF) defines vodka as “A neutral spirit so distilled as to be without distinctive character, aroma, taste or color”.
If the BATF definition is taken literally, it would mean that there should be no difference between vodkas made from potatoes, grains, wine, milk or any other fermentable sugar. Why then is there so much advertising hype about the unique qualities of a vodka from, say, Sweden, or Poland, or Russia, etc., etc.? If there’s no difference, why then all the talk about triple
distilling, carbon filtering, and so on? Or the difference between vodkas made from potatoes and grain? The following quotation from the London Daily Telegraph of June 14, 1997 is interesting in this connection,
“Aleksander Orekhov, the Russian-born owner of Red, a Soho bar that offers some 40 different vodkas, makes no apology for saying that the best vodka is one that has no real flavour at all”. In line with this thinking it may be
noted that some manufacturers choose to use the lactose in milk to make vodka, not just because it is available locally but also because it gives no flavour to the vodka.
𝙏𝙝𝙚 𝙛𝙖𝙘𝙩 𝙨𝙚𝙚𝙢𝙨 𝙩𝙤 𝙗𝙚 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙩 𝙢𝙤𝙨𝙩 𝙫𝙤𝙙𝙠𝙖𝙨, 𝙖𝙩 𝙡𝙚𝙖𝙨𝙩 𝙤𝙪𝙩𝙨𝙞𝙙𝙚 𝙉. 𝘼𝙢𝙚𝙧𝙞𝙘𝙖, 𝙙𝙤 𝙝𝙖𝙫𝙚 𝙖 𝙨𝙡𝙞𝙜𝙝𝙩 𝙛𝙡𝙖𝙫𝙤𝙪𝙧. 𝙏𝙝𝙚𝙮 𝙖𝙧𝙚 𝙡𝙞𝙜𝙝𝙩𝙡𝙮 𝙛𝙡𝙖𝙫𝙤𝙪𝙧𝙚𝙙 𝙗𝙮 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙢𝙖𝙣𝙪𝙛𝙖𝙘𝙩𝙪𝙧𝙚𝙧 𝙪𝙨𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙘𝙚𝙧𝙩𝙖𝙞𝙣 𝙜𝙧𝙖𝙨𝙨𝙚𝙨 𝙤𝙧 𝙝𝙚𝙧𝙗𝙨, 𝙨𝙤 𝙙𝙚𝙡𝙞𝙘𝙖𝙩𝙚𝙡𝙮 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙩 𝙞𝙩 𝙘𝙖𝙣 𝙗𝙖𝙧𝙚𝙡𝙮 𝙗𝙚 𝙙𝙚𝙩𝙚𝙘𝙩𝙚𝙙, 𝙞𝙣 𝙬𝙝𝙞𝙘𝙝 𝙘𝙖𝙨𝙚 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙨𝙤𝙪𝙧𝙘𝙚 𝙤𝙛 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙛𝙡𝙖𝙫𝙤𝙪𝙧𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙞𝙨 𝙣𝙤𝙩 𝙢𝙚𝙣𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣𝙚𝙙.
Or glycerine is added to give the vodka smoothness and body. The use of such additives is allowed to remain a subtle mystery in order to tempt the palates of vodka afi-
cionados around the world. Recently, however, more strongly flavoured vodkas have been introduced into the market, with flavours which include raspberry, strawberry, peach, vanilla, lemon, vanilla, coffee, cinnamon, pepper, and so on. No mystery here — they are advertised as lemon vodka, etc. Such practice makes eminent sense — use pure alcohol, add a natural flavouring (of which there are hundreds, if not thousands) and you have a unique and pleasant drink with no congeners, no methanol, no fusel oils, nor (as will be discussed in the next chapter) any headaches or hangovers. Another, more traditional way to make a delicately flavoured vodka, is to carry out a slightly “imperfect” fractional distillation so that very small amounts of the natural flavours in the original source of carbohydrate — potatoes, grain, etc. — are retained. This is much more tricky than making a pure, unflavoured alcohol because it involves a subjective judgement on the part of the distiller on what constitutes a pleasant taste when traces of the heads and tails are retained. The acquisition of such judgement requires
many years of experience combined with constant feedback from satisfied or dissatisfied customers.

"
I quoted this entire part to give more context to the text highlighted in bold italic which is my main concern here. The rest is to assure you that I completely understand what vodka really is, by general definition and by rules of law. I am a Newby here but I do know my booze as a bartender.

So, what's killing me here is the inevitable question of "what ARE the herbs or other products used to give vokda that slight, almost undetectable flavor ?"

If I were to get me good quality NGS (because that's all I can do until I can start to distill my own stuff) and dilute it to 40% for vodka, it would meet the general and legal requirements that allow it to be defined as vodka.

But can I, say, boil corn or potatoes or wheat or whatever such ingredient, then take the water from it and put it my (previously mentioned in my first post) small hydrosol still which can't be used for alcohol because it's neither copper or ss, to make a concentrated flavor of that ingredient that I can then add in tiny amounts to the NGS that I've diluted to obtain a very subtly flavored and aromatic vodka ?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, so thank you all!


Miles.

[seamusm53]

I have long wondered the same. But I suspect that one doesn't have to add anything to add subtle flavors or distinguish one brand or source of sugar from another. Distillation by itself cannot create pure ethanol - around 95% or 190 proof is the best that one can produce which as pointed out is then diluted down to a drinkable proof. So I suspect that there will always be very small amounts of heads/tails in the distillate even at Everclear concentrations. But another source of potential 'subtle' flavor is of course the water used.

[still_stirrin]

Hey all … If I were to get me good quality NGS (because that's all I can do until I can start to distill my own stuff) and dilute it to 40% for vodka, it would meet the general and legal requirements that allow it to be defined as vodka …

OK, so why do you believe you need to meet the “legal requirements” for vodka? This is a hobby distiller’s website, not a commercial distilling forum. We just distill for our own personal consumption and beyond that it’s not discussed (much). We request commercial distillers to post their license so our “hobby” site doesn’t attract scrutiny from federal agencies.

But can I, say, boil corn or potatoes or wheat or whatever such ingredient, then take the water from it and put it my (previously mentioned in my first post) small hydrosol still which can't be used for alcohol because it's neither copper or ss, to make a concentrated flavor of that ingredient that I can then add in tiny amounts to the NGS that I've diluted to obtain a very subtly flavored and aromatic vodka ?

Can you do it....sure, knock yourself out. Let us know what you learn in the process. My bet, it’ll taste (and look) like crap! But, you should go down that path so you actually learn something, ie - what to do or what NOT to do.

If I wanted to add a “hint” of flavor to a true neutral spirit (which NGS is not), I would vapor infuse it. Look at Odin’s EZ Gin recipe for discussions of macerated and vapor infused botanical spirits to understand how we “hobby distillers” would accomplish what you’re asking about.

Good luck with your education, Miles.
ss

[LB Miles]

Hey all … If I were to get me good quality NGS (because that's all I can do until I can start to distill my own stuff) and dilute it to 40% for vodka, it would meet the general and legal requirements that allow it to be defined as vodka …

OK, so why do you believe you need to meet the “legal requirements” for vodka? This is a hobby distiller’s website, not a commercial distilling forum. We just distill for our own personal consumption and beyond that it’s not discussed (much). We request commercial distillers to post their license so our “hobby” site doesn’t attract scrutiny from federal agencies.

But can I, say, boil corn or potatoes or wheat or whatever such ingredient, then take the water from it and put it my (previously mentioned in my first post) small hydrosol still which can't be used for alcohol because it's neither copper or ss, to make a concentrated flavor of that ingredient that I can then add in tiny amounts to the NGS that I've diluted to obtain a very subtly flavored and aromatic vodka ?

Can you do it....sure, knock yourself out. Let us know what you learn in the process. My bet, it’ll taste (and look) like crap! But, you should go down that path so you actually learn something, ie - what to do or what NOT to do.

If I wanted to add a “hint” of flavor to a true neutral spirit (which NGS is not), I would vapor infuse it. Look at Odin’s EZ Gin recipe for discussions of macerated and vapor infused botanical spirits to understand how we “hobby distillers” would accomplish what you’re asking about.

Good luck with your education, Miles.
ss

Still_Stirrin, thank you for taking the time to read and reply, It seems like my best bet is to try. As for how subtle I would make it, well if the distillation of "flavor", which I'm thinking of making out of wheat perhaps, does end up working, then I wouldn't need more than 5 ml / L (0.5%) to get the result I want, theoretically.

Once I end up doing it I will report back, tho it might take a while for me to get there.


Miles.

[Deplorable]

I suspect that if you made a very weak wheat berry tea from wheat berries steeped in hot water then filtered, you could dilute your high strength NGS to drinking strength, but your results will likely be a cloudy spirit.

[LB Miles]

I suspect that if you made a very weak wheat berry tea from wheat berries steeped in hot water then filtered, you could dilute your high strength NGS to drinking strength, but your results will likely be a cloudy spirit.

Thanks deplorable,

That's why I plan on distilling that wheat tea (with a small still unfit for alcohol) to have a clear concentrated flavor to add in small quantities.


Miles.

[zapata]

Just an update, but that legal definition of vodka is archaic and has been widely ignored for years, finally with official support.

Notice 176 from April 1st 2020 (no, not april fools!)
Modernization of the Labeling and Advertising Regulations for Wine,
Distilled Spirits, and Malt Beverages
https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspect ... -05939.pdf

Revised Standard of Identity for Vodka
TTB received twelve comments in response to the proposed changes to the standard of identity for vodka. TTB did not receive any comments relating to the proposal to incorporate several past rulings related to treatment of vodka with sugar, citric acid, and charcoal. TTB requested comments on whether the requirement that vodka be without distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color should be retained and, if this requirement is no longer appropriate, what the standards should be for distinguishing vodka from other neutral spirits.

TTB Response

Based on its review of the comments, TTB agrees that the requirement that vodka be without distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color no longer reflects consumer expectations and should be eliminated. Vodka will continue to be distinguished by its specific production standards: vodka may not be labeled as aged, and unlike other neutral spirits, it may contain limited amounts of sugar and citric acid.

Accordingly, TTB is amending the existing regulations at § 5.22(a)(1) to remove the requirement that vodka be without distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color, and to incorporate in the regulations the standards set forth in the rulings discussed above, obviating the need for those rulings which will be canceled. TTB will also make a conforming change to existing § 5.23(a)(3)(iii), which discusses the addition of harmless coloring, flavoring, or blending materials to neutral spirits, to reflect the allowed additions to vodka in amended § 5.22(a)(1)

I think the allowed limits for vodka for "harmless flavoring" without disclosure are 2 g/L sugar and 1 g/L citric acid. Everything else is disclosed, or makes it a flavored spirit rather than plain vodka.

The revised identity standards now read

(a) Class 1; neutral spirits or alcohol. “Neutral spirits” or “alcohol” are distilled spirits produced from any material at or above 190° proof, and, if bottled, bottled at not less than 80° proof.

(1) “Vodka” is neutral spirits which may be treated with up to two grams per liter of sugar and up to one gram per liter of citric acid. Products to be labeled as vodka may not be aged or stored in wood barrels at any time except when stored in paraffin-lined wood barrels and labeled as bottled in bond pursuant to § 5.42(b)(3). Vodka treated and filtered with not less than one ounce of activated carbon or activated charcoal per 100 wine gallons of spirits may be labeled as “charcoal filtered.”

But to answer what I see as the heart of your question

So, what's killing me here is the inevitable question of "what ARE the herbs or other products used to give vokda that slight, almost undetectable flavor ?"

Usually not herbs. Simple congeners suffice. You can buy GNS from a factory with five 50 foot tall columns, and when you do it will come with a spec sheet showing non-zero concentrations of dozens of congeners.

But overwhelmingly, the finest flavors in vodka aren't made in distilleries, they're made in marketing departments.

[LB Miles]

Just an update, but that legal definition of vodka is archaic and has been widely ignored for years, finally with official support.

Notice 176 from April 1st 2020 (no, not april fools!)
Modernization of the Labeling and Advertising Regulations for Wine,
Distilled Spirits, and Malt Beverages
https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspect ... -05939.pdf

Revised Standard of Identity for Vodka
TTB received twelve comments in response to the proposed changes to the standard of identity for vodka. TTB did not receive any comments relating to the proposal to incorporate several past rulings related to treatment of vodka with sugar, citric acid, and charcoal. TTB requested comments on whether the requirement that vodka be without distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color should be retained and, if this requirement is no longer appropriate, what the standards should be for distinguishing vodka from other neutral spirits.

TTB Response

Based on its review of the comments, TTB agrees that the requirement that vodka be without distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color no longer reflects consumer expectations and should be eliminated. Vodka will continue to be distinguished by its specific production standards: vodka may not be labeled as aged, and unlike other neutral spirits, it may contain limited amounts of sugar and citric acid.

Accordingly, TTB is amending the existing regulations at § 5.22(a)(1) to remove the requirement that vodka be without distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color, and to incorporate in the regulations the standards set forth in the rulings discussed above, obviating the need for those rulings which will be canceled. TTB will also make a conforming change to existing § 5.23(a)(3)(iii), which discusses the addition of harmless coloring, flavoring, or blending materials to neutral spirits, to reflect the allowed additions to vodka in amended § 5.22(a)(1)

I think the allowed limits for vodka for "harmless flavoring" without disclosure are 2 g/L sugar and 1 g/L citric acid. Everything else is disclosed, or makes it a flavored spirit rather than plain vodka.

The revised identity standards now read

(a) Class 1; neutral spirits or alcohol. “Neutral spirits” or “alcohol” are distilled spirits produced from any material at or above 190° proof, and, if bottled, bottled at not less than 80° proof.

(1) “Vodka” is neutral spirits which may be treated with up to two grams per liter of sugar and up to one gram per liter of citric acid. Products to be labeled as vodka may not be aged or stored in wood barrels at any time except when stored in paraffin-lined wood barrels and labeled as bottled in bond pursuant to § 5.42(b)(3). Vodka treated and filtered with not less than one ounce of activated carbon or activated charcoal per 100 wine gallons of spirits may be labeled as “charcoal filtered.”

But to answer what I see as the heart of your question

So, what's killing me here is the inevitable question of "what ARE the herbs or other products used to give vokda that slight, almost undetectable flavor ?"

Usually not herbs. Simple congeners suffice. You can buy GNS from a factory with five 50 foot tall columns, and when you do it will come with a spec sheet showing non-zero concentrations of dozens of congeners.

But overwhelmingly, the finest flavors in vodka aren't made in distilleries, they're made in marketing departments.

Hey there zapata, thanks for taking the time and stopping by.

Well if that ain't good news for me, when it comes to standards of making Vodka. Now I understand what sugar has to do in the mix, but why citric acid though ? I do use it in syrups and low alcohol liqueurs to help the shelf life of the 'product' and occasionally use a 6% citric acid solution to mimic the sourness of lemon juice when the stuff ain't at hand. But why add it to a 40% spirit ?

Also, I loved this : " 𝘽𝙪𝙩 𝙤𝙫𝙚𝙧𝙬𝙝𝙚𝙡𝙢𝙞𝙣𝙜𝙡𝙮, 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙛𝙞𝙣𝙚𝙨𝙩 𝙛𝙡𝙖𝙫𝙤𝙧𝙨 𝙞𝙣 𝙫𝙤𝙙𝙠𝙖 𝙖𝙧𝙚𝙣'𝙩 𝙢𝙖𝙙𝙚 𝙞𝙣 𝙙𝙞𝙨𝙩𝙞𝙡𝙡𝙚𝙧𝙞𝙚𝙨, 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙮'𝙧𝙚 𝙢𝙖𝙙𝙚 𝙞𝙣 𝙢𝙖𝙧𝙠𝙚𝙩𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙙𝙚𝙥𝙖𝙧𝙩𝙢𝙚𝙣𝙩𝙨. "

And that's exactly why I'm studying PR in university (ya probably call it college over in the 'murrica) and funny enough, not to go too far off topic, on my first day of my first year I was skimming through my major course's book and encountered a quick case study of belvedere's marketing brilliance. And I told myself that it was no coincidence.

Now when I do realize the dream, I'm not aiming to screw people over with words, but I do intend to get a large chunk of the local market eventually.


P.S: I haven't yet figured out how to quote indidual phrases and paragraphs and reply to each on its own, so I'd appreciate some insight, and thanks again.


Miles.

[zapata]

P.S: I haven't yet figured out how to quote indidual phrases and paragraphs and reply to each on its own, so I'd appreciate some insight, and thanks again.

I often do it manually, especially like when quoting the TTB I just wanted the formatting, I wasn't quoting a member. Replace these parenthesis with brackets.
(quote) Like this (/quote)
and you get

like this

Or, beside each post is a "button, that will cite the author and quote the entire post. If you just want to respond to a section then just edit it on the preview page. Whatever you leave between (quote...) and (/quote) will be formatted. Doing it this way looks like, again brackets replaced with parenthesis (quote="LB Miles" post_id=7639797 time=1605997838 user_id=81986) and notifies the author you quoted them. You can do this either from the page you are reading now, or from the "full editor and preview" page, scrolling down will show the whole thread. Here I'm quoting you from the preview page by clicking on the "button, but I'm editing the text because otherwise it quotes everything, including where you quoted me.

See, don't need to quote you quoting me, but if I delete this section then it doesn't illustrate the point. Now I'm gonna hit "preview" instead of post and make sure that my (quote) and (/quote) tags are all in the right place.

Now I understand what sugar has to do in the mix, but why citric acid though ? I do use it in syrups and low alcohol liqueurs to help the shelf life of the 'product' and occasionally use a 6% citric acid solution to mimic the sourness of lemon juice when the stuff ain't at hand. But why add it to a 40% spirit ?

I don't think it's because citric acid is particularly good, but more because it's harmless and so allowed. I wouldn't ever use it in an unflavored neutral or vodka, but it does compliment many liqueurs.

BTW, if you aren't in the US and are considering commercial production, look up your own laws. US TTB regulations won't apply to your local market. EU regulations are referenced here:


https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farming- ... spirits_en
But any country can make whatever laws they want.

[LB Miles]

I don't think it's because citric acid is particularly good, but more because it's harmless and so allowed. I wouldn't ever use it in an unflavored neutral or vodka, but it does compliment many liqueurs.

So it's sort of pointless in vodka

BTW, if you aren't in the US and are considering commercial production, look up your own laws. US TTB regulations won't apply to your local market. EU regulations are referenced here:


https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farming- ... spirits_en
But any country can make whatever laws they want.

The lack of regulations here in Lebanon is a recipe for chaos, but I'm quite interested in the regulations by TTB in the USA because one day I might get to a point where I would export to there or open a distillery there too or anything else. Also looking at the EU regulations is pretty important for these same purposes. What I'm trying to achieve in the very long run isn't just to have a brand of booze, but a community. It's all for bringing people together.

Until then though, I will focus on small scale personal use to get good at it and bring my own tribe (friends who are as close as family) together. Hospitality has an important role in my life.


Thanks again Zapata.


Miles.

[Saltbush Bill]

But overwhelmingly, the finest flavors in vodka aren't made in distilleries, they're made in marketing departments.

A lot of truth right there I think.

[bluefish_dist]

Interesting, after selling I had not kept up on ttb changes to class and type. I had always read the old standard as requiring charcoal filtering if it wasn’t quite neutral. I know our vodka always had a slight hint of barley which made it somewhat unique. Reyka vodka was close to what we made. Most vodka does have telltale hints of its base sugar source even under the old definition.

[LB Miles]

Interesting, after selling I had not kept up on ttb changes to class and type. I had always read the old standard as requiring charcoal filtering if it wasn’t quite neutral. I know our vodka always had a slight hint of barley which made it somewhat unique. Reyka vodka was close to what we made. Most vodka does have telltale hints of its base sugar source even under the old definition.

Bluefish_dist, that's interesting. What about sugar wash based neutral ? Does it have a distinct flavor that defines it too ?

Based on Jessie's video on Still It on YT he could tell apart vodka made form potatoes and one made from sugar wash. Now the potato vodka was made from 90% abv. But I don't know from what abv the sugar wash based one came from to tell how much residual flavor that had to make it so obviously distinguishable from the other. I dunno if I'm making sense here.

Thanks for stopping by.


Miles.

[still_stirrin]

… he could tell apart vodka made form potatoes and one made from sugar wash … But I don't know … how much residual flavor … to make it … distinguishable from the other.

I dunno if I'm making sense here.

Well, you certainly are displaying your inexperience.

A sugar wash will have a distinguishable taste, even if distilled to a very high purity. Likewise, a corn mash has a unique taste, even at high purity. Ditto barley, wheat, rye, oats, rice, and all of the cereal grains. It is your trained palette that will distinguish the subtle differences. But, an inexperienced taster likely won’t know what the differences are, although he may be able to sense differences.

So, experience with making the base spirits will teach you the process differences. And experience with different recipes will help you hone your senses as well. Until then, you’re trusting what you read and watch on Youtube to formulate your knowledge base. Your bartending experience and marketing education may help you with paradigm definition, but it won’t help much with spirits production. Time to “roll up your sleeves” and get busy. Time for some practical experience instead of “daydreaming”.
ss

[Saltbush Bill]

Based on Jessie's video on Still It on YT he could tell apart vodka made form potatoes and one made from sugar wash

I'm not sure that really says a lot, most folk that know their way around the more popular sugar wash recipes on the different forums could probably tell the difference between Birdwatchers Sugar Wash, Goo's Kale Wash and Shadys Sugar Shine to. They are all sugar washes .....but to me they all have tell tale signs / tastes / differences that set them apart.

[LB Miles]

So here we are folks, I cooked 2 kg (4.4 lb) of wheat and threw the remaining 7L (almost 8 qt?) into my "still" and it started producing really quickly since I had eliminated the heat up time by quickly straining the liquid and immediately popped it into the still.

The result is encouraging. It does taste quite obviously of wheat so no alterations in taste.

Will report back on the results once done.

This is my quick shitty setup

[LB Miles]

Okay, the results are in.

I took 1L of product, the aroma is quite weak for a concentrated hydrosol. The taste is good. When diluted to 5% the smell is weak as well. starchy, reminiscent of pasta and obviously enough, wheat. The taste is far too weak for something that was made from hydrosol so all in all it is subtle enough to use in 'vodka' at 3% it would add a little hint of something without being too in-your-face kinda thing.

So where does that leave us ? Experiment got an A- in terms of expectations vs results.

I hope that all of this goofing around of mine sparks an idea in anyone's mind in one way or another after reading this. Or at least, that someone finds it interesting rather than a waste of time.

Thank you all for your time and energy in reading and responding to my unusual experiments.

See y'all around.


Miles.

[greggn]

This is my quick shitty setup

Unless that photo was from a cleaning run you shouldn't be using a plastic funnel ... and an un-supported bottle of high-proof alcohol, that close to an open flame, makes me awfully nervous.

[Rrmuf]

So here we are folks, I cooked 2 kg (4.4 lb) of wheat and threw the remaining 7L (almost 8 qt?) into my "still" and it started producing really quickly since I had eliminated the heat up time by quickly straining the liquid and immediately popped it into the still.

The result is encouraging. It does taste quite obviously of wheat so no alterations in taste.

Will report back on the results once done.

This is my quick shitty setup

IMG_20201123_161550.jpg

Woah! What could possibly go wrong here? I tink you will get comment on the plastic funnel, and on the proximity of the distillate to open flame mate!

[Birrofilo]

You might be interested in this thread also: https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =4&t=68929

I remain of the opinion which I expressed in the first page of that thread: Vodka, for the world (letting aside the US) is a distillate of a cereal wash, very cleanly cut. It's not neutral, and the flavour it has is always denoting cereals. Some very neutral vodka is supposed to exist (the Stolichnaya, or "Stoli", is of the kind) and to be ideal for cocktails, but in general vodka has a flavour, which is not "flavouring", is the usual result of congeners and water aroma (some wash water always ends up in your distillate, even if in tiny quantities).

I don't like the use of the term "vodka" as "neutral spirit", which really is an "americanism". In the modern world, the vodkas you find in stores is always produced with cereals and always tastes like cereals in a subtle way. All vodkas which I tasted (Smirnoff, Moskowskaya, Wyborowa, two different kinds of Absolut, and a ton of no-name discount vodkas, often excellent products) do taste "like cereals", be they Italian, French, Russian, Polish or Scandinavian. Also, they are clearly different from each other.

Personally I think that an expensive vodka is just a nonsense as an expensive Gin. There is nothing in the productive process of Vodkas, or Gin, which requires an added expense, an added cost in the process (such as accurate selection of the raw matter, or aging, or a complicated blending, or barrel maintenance, smoking, or "infection", or an extreme control of the productive process to achieve flavour constance among batches). A €9 gin can be "better", in subjective terms, than a €40, and so is with Vodka. Try some cheap bottle in discount stores and you'll be surprised. That usually doesn't happen with whisky, or grappa, or rum, or tequila, because for these even if you find a good cheap bottle (which can easily happen) you can rest assured that a bottle from the next batch will taste different. My € 0,02.

[LB Miles]

So here we are folks, I cooked 2 kg (4.4 lb) of wheat and threw the remaining 7L (almost 8 qt?) into my "still" and it started producing really quickly since I had eliminated the heat up time by quickly straining the liquid and immediately popped it into the still.

The result is encouraging. It does taste quite obviously of wheat so no alterations in taste.

Will report back on the results once done.

This is my quick shitty setup

IMG_20201123_161550.jpg

Woah! What could possibly go wrong here? I tink you will get comment on the plastic funnel, and on the proximity of the distillate to open flame mate!

Well I have received some criticism for the plastic funnel but that's what's available at the moment.

As for the distillate being close to the flame, well it's non-flammable so it's no hazard.

But thank you for your concern.


Miles

[LB Miles]

You might be interested in this thread also: https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =4&t=68929

𝗧𝗵𝗮𝗻𝗸 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁, 𝗜 𝘄𝗶𝗹𝗹 𝗰𝗵𝗲𝗰𝗸 𝗶𝘁 𝗼𝘂𝘁

I remain of the opinion which I expressed in the first page of that thread: Vodka, for the world (letting aside the US) is a distillate of a cereal wash, very cleanly cut. It's not neutral, and the flavour it has is always denoting cereals. Some very neutral vodka is supposed to exist (the Stolichnaya, or "Stoli", is of the kind) and to be ideal for cocktails, but in general vodka has a flavour, which is not "flavouring", is the usual result of congeners and water aroma (some wash water always ends up in your distillate, even if in tiny quantities).

I don't like the use of the term "vodka" as "neutral spirit", which really is an "americanism". In the modern world, the vodkas you find in stores is always produced with cereals and always tastes like cereals in a subtle way. All vodkas which I tasted (Smirnoff, Moskowskaya, Wyborowa, two different kinds of Absolut, and a ton of no-name discount vodkas, often excellent products) do taste "like cereals", be they Italian, French, Russian, Polish or Scandinavian. Also, they are clearly different from each other.

𝗪𝗲 𝗱𝗼 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝘀𝗼𝗿𝘁𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝗯𝗿𝗮𝗻𝗱𝘀 𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲, 𝗳𝗿𝗼𝗺 𝗱𝗶𝗿𝘁 𝗰𝗵𝗲𝗮𝗽 𝘁𝗼 𝗼𝘂𝘁𝗿𝗮𝗴𝗲𝗼𝘂𝘀𝗹𝘆 𝗲𝘅𝗽𝗲𝗻𝘀𝗶𝘃𝗲. 𝗔𝗻𝗱 𝗜'𝘃𝗲 𝘁𝗿𝗶𝗲𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗺 𝗮𝗹𝗹. 𝗜 𝘄𝗼𝘂𝗹𝗱 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝗴𝗼 𝗹𝗼𝘄𝗲𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝗻 𝗦𝘁𝗼𝗹𝗶, 𝗮𝗯𝘀𝗼𝗹𝘂𝘁 𝗶𝘀 𝗶𝗱𝗲𝗮𝗹. 𝗕𝘂𝘁 𝗮𝗻𝘆𝘁𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗰𝗵𝗲𝗮𝗽𝗲𝗿 𝗹𝗶𝗸𝗲 𝗺𝗼𝘀𝗹𝗼𝘃𝘀𝗮𝗸𝗮𝘆𝗮 𝗶𝘀 𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗿𝗶𝗯𝗹𝗲 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗮𝗻𝘆𝘁𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗺𝗼𝗿𝗲 𝗲𝘅𝗽𝗲𝗻𝘀𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝗻 𝗮𝗯𝘀𝗼𝗹𝘂𝘁𝗲 𝗼𝘀 𝗷𝘂𝘀𝘁 𝘄𝗮𝘀𝘁𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗺𝗼𝗻𝗲𝘆. 𝗜 𝗰𝗮𝗻'𝘁 𝗾𝘂𝗼𝘁𝗲 𝗹𝗼𝗰𝗮𝗹 𝗽𝗿𝗶𝗰𝗲𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝘆𝗺𝗼𝗿𝗲 𝘀𝗶𝗻𝗰𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘃𝗼𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗰𝘂𝗿𝗿𝗲𝗻𝗰𝘆 𝗸𝗲𝗲𝗽𝘀 𝗯𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗰𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘂𝗽 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗱𝗼𝘄𝗻.

Personally I think that an expensive vodka is just a nonsense as an expensive Gin. There is nothing in the productive process of Vodkas, or Gin, which requires an added expense, an added cost in the process (such as accurate selection of the raw matter, or aging, or a complicated blending, or barrel maintenance, smoking, or "infection", or an extreme control of the productive process to achieve flavour constance among batches). A €9 gin can be "better", in subjective terms, than a €40, and so is with Vodka. Try some cheap bottle in discount stores and you'll be surprised. That usually doesn't happen with whisky, or grappa, or rum, or tequila, because for these even if you find a good cheap bottle (which can easily happen) you can rest assured that a bottle from the next batch will taste different. My € 0,02.

𝗔𝘀 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗴𝗶𝗻, 𝘄𝗲𝗹𝗹, 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘀𝗶𝘁𝘂𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗶𝘀 𝘀𝗶𝗺𝗶𝗹𝗮𝗿 𝘁𝗼 𝘃𝗼𝗱𝗸𝗮.


𝗠𝗶𝗹𝗲𝘀.

[The Baker]

'As for the distillate being close to the flame, well it's non-flammable so it's no hazard.'

Distillate.

Non-flammable????

Geoff

[bluefish_dist]

There are definitely differences in the quality of vodka. IMHO it’s mostly due to cuts. Cheap stuff has almost no cuts. Good vodka has tighter cuts and that does add cost as more gets thrown away. With that said, price does not always reflect quality. There are plenty of expensive, bad vodkas.

[Expat]

'As for the distillate being close to the flame, well it's non-flammable so it's no hazard.'

Distillate.

Non-flammable????

Perhaps OP does not reside in an oxygen atmosphere environment....

[stillanoob]

That's why I plan on distilling that wheat tea (with a small still unfit for alcohol) to have a clear concentrated flavor to add in small quantities.

Miles.

He said he wasn't distilling alcohol, just wheat tea to make a flavoring agent.

[greggn]

As for the distillate being close to the flame, well it's non-flammable so it's no hazard.

Ok, I get it ... that is your "hydrosol still" in which case you're operating safely enough. Carry on.

[The Baker]

That's why I plan on distilling that wheat tea (with a small still unfit for alcohol) to have a clear concentrated flavor to add in small quantities.

Miles.

He said he wasn't distilling alcohol, just wheat tea to make a flavoring agent.

Oh.
Maybe what a chef would call 'reducing'?

Geoff

[Yonder]

Can’t speak for the US production techniques but while teaching in Izhevsk, i had the great pleasure of touring one of the republics premiere vodka distilleries. The tasting room afterward had a wall, floor to ceiling of various vodkas they had produced. Every one flavored with a distinctive element be it leaves, bark, or whatever. All the best I had ever tasted. During the tour i watched them do analysis of the product, identifying each element in the drink. The graph was always a straight line with the exception of a spike at the chemical compound(s) being added for flavor during distillation. fascinating stuff...just alcohol and a touch of flavor.
I also learned that all production workers were women. They found long ago men would just end up drunk and F* things up.

[LB Miles]

Oh.
Maybe what a chef would call 'reducing'?

Geoff

Reducing would require to evaporate most of the liquid, which contains a lot of the flavor. And the resulting liquid would not be clear. That's why I used distillation.


[edit*] : I had screwed up the quotation

Miles.