CCVM Questions

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Saltbush Bill
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by Saltbush Bill »

+1 on the above posts.
Double run neutral wins hands down every time.
20 x pipe diameter on 3 inch = 60 inches ....any less your doing a half arse job.
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by bluc »

Sbb the 60" is that when running wash or lw? Or both?
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by Sporacle »

cmac62 wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:23 pm I thought it could be less tall if I used the 3".
I think as everyone I saying 20x diameter seems to be the standard for packing height in the column:D
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Either if you want quality .Single run if your happy with mediocre.
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by bluefish_dist »

cmac62 wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:23 pm I thought it could be less tall if I used the 3".
It should be taller as diameter increases.

For the best product make the column as tall as possible. On my last vodka still I built a new boiler that was shorter so I could make the column taller as well as a Thor’s hammer condenser as my ceiling was only 12ft. Still squeezed a 8 ft column in. Would run a solid 190.2-190.5 proof off low wines. I ran both 4” and 6”. 4” actually made higher proof, but was slower as expected. Could fill a half gallon jar in about 20 min at the start of a run on 6”.
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by jward »

shadylane wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:25 pm For one run and done neutral spirits.
A rough guesstimate is to have a column 20 times taller than it's diameter.
Taller than that is beginning to get into diminishing returns.
Personally, I think two runs, is better than one run in taller column.
Long story short, I'd strip first, dilute and run it again. :wink:
If you are running low wines does the 20x diameter still apply?
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by still_stirrin »

jward wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:21 pm…If you are running low wines does the 20x diameter still apply?
The 20:1 length to diameter (L:D) ratio is a “rule of thumb” for a tall enough column to reach azeotropic purity. Of course, the type of packing can make a difference because efficient packing will provide better reflux ratios due to the interaction of falling condensate and rising vapors. Efficient packing will be more effective for the “heat exchange”, improving the reboiling and condensing and reboiling, etc. cycles That is what boosts the purity.

Running low wines will simply reach vapor production with less heat input. So, if the heat input is high, it will produce vapors quickly. Then, if you have adequate HETP (column height and packing), it will be capable of higher reflux…assuming you have the knockdown power in your reflux condenser. Remember, the heat input (to produce vapors) must be removed to generate condensation.

It is the falling condensate that interacts with the hot rising vapors that causes the higher volatile constituents (alcohol) to reboil and rise again.

So, all this … to give you the mechanism … to answer your question: YES, the L:D ratio still applies even when running low wines.
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by Saltbush Bill »

jward wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:21 pm If you are running low wines does the 20x diameter still apply?
Any reflux still will produce a better product running low wines....regardless of length.
A reflux still of the right height will make good booze on a single run from wash, if your happy with that then fine do it that way.
If you don't want to settle for second best and want excellent Neutral then Low Wines through a reflux still of the right height is the way to go.
If you like taking short cuts and want to settle for quite average or worse, then make a reflux still shorter than it should be, and run wash once ...for slightly better run low wines.
That has been my experience from running every thing from a T500 reflux, which have a too short column.
I ran that still with straight wash before I knew better...the single biggest improvement I ever made as a Newb with that still was to run Low Wines.
From there I moved to a 3 inch Boka.....again it runs and makes the best neutral running on low wines. It is the exact right length , I'll put the neutral that comes from it next to any body's when its running low wines from Shadys S.S.
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by shadylane »

jward wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:21 pm
shadylane wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:25 pm For one run and done neutral spirits.
A rough guesstimate is to have a column 20 times taller than it's diameter.
Taller than that is beginning to get into diminishing returns.
Personally, I think two runs, is better than one run in taller column.
Long story short, I'd strip first, dilute and run it again. :wink:
If you are running low wines does the 20x diameter still apply?
Just my drunken opinion. :lol:

Neutral doesn't necessary mean high proof. The 20x is only a rule of thumb. Especially for one run and done.
No matter the column height. Re-distilling diluted low-wines will make a cleaner neutral.
Having a tall column is about compressing and getting rid of heads and tails.
That way more of the fermented alcohol makes the hearts cut and get's into your jug. :wink:
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by jward »

Thanks for the replies. At this point it's just learning, but I might as well learn right.
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by shadylane »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:33 pm +1 on the above posts.
Double run neutral wins hands down every time.
The first distillation keeps the majority of the tails in the pot to be disposed of.
The water used to dilute the low-wines, holds onto the rest the tails during the second run.

Or something like that. :lol:
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by cmac62 »

Thanks for the replies. So for a rook, a 2" x 40" column would be about right. Also, this is just the packed section of the column? So when I build this thing, what is the best packing? I was thinking some copper scrubbers and perhaps some rings on top. How tight is is supposed to be? I know look it up. LOL.
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by Yummyrum »

If you are using a Copper column , tee and coil , you can use Stainless steel scrubbers . Tease them out then ram them in as hard as you can with a stick ( with your hand , not a mallet :wink: ). You can’t compress them too much as the natural “spring” of the SS will keep it just right .

If you are going to use a stainless Steel column , tee and coil , you will need to use copper mesh ( for Sulfide removal) . Personally I’d pack most of the column with Stainless Scrubbers rammed in and then carefully insert a roll of copper mesh in the top .

But , yeah 2” x 40” is a perfect size :thumbup:
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by Twisted Brick »

cmac,

You'll find a find a good number of arguments here re: the 'best' packing, but whether its raschig rings, lava rock, marbles or scrubbies, I think you're splitting hairs on the last few percentage points on which one's the most efficient. Only SPP stands out above the others.

If you install a sightglass right below your takeoff tee (recommended) you can tack on another 4" or so of packed section to add to your total.
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Re: CCVM Questions

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So, I have most of the parts. 36 inches of column to pack, a sight glass, a T & elbow, and 6 inches on top for my RC. These are all denard SS tubing with TC fittings. I have ordered a 70 inch CSST 3/8 od to make the RC. I have some lava rock for packing, the size is 1 - 1/2 inch pieces. I was thinking to put some copper mesh or scrubbies either on top or below the lava rock. I also bought a 2" x 15" ss shotgun condenser. Now I just need to figure out how to deal with the cooling water. I have a pool in my yard and I was thinking of using that as cooling water. I have a submersible pump to move it. I believe this goes to the PC first then to the RC, or do I need to split it somehow. Getting the cooling water figured is the last thing before the cleaning runs. Any help/information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by Sporacle »

cmac62 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:25 pm So, I have most of the parts. 36 inches of column to pack, a sight glass, a T & elbow, and 6 inches on top for my RC. These are all denard SS tubing with TC fittings. I have ordered a 70 inch CSST 3/8 od to make the RC. I have some lava rock for packing, the size is 1 - 1/2 inch pieces. I was thinking to put some copper mesh or scrubbies either on top or below the lava rock. I also bought a 2" x 15" ss shotgun condenser. Now I just need to figure out how to deal with the cooling water. I have a pool in my yard and I was thinking of using that as cooling water. I have a submersible pump to move it. I believe this goes to the PC first then to the RC, or do I need to split it somehow. Getting the cooling water figured is the last thing before the cleaning runs. Any help/information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,

Here's a full thread on that very subject
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =1&t=84854
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by kimbodious »

On a CCVM you don’t need fine scale control for cooling for the reflux condenser. Reflux is managed by raising or lowering the RC coil.

As long as there is enough flow through the RC to put the column in to total reflux (or equilibrium) then you can forget about adjusting the flow any further.

I too run the cooling to my CCVM from a sump pump in a pool and I have the water to the condensers connected in series.
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by cmac62 »

Thanks Kimbodious. That's what I thought.

Next question is what do you use to keep the packing in the tubes? I have a 12" and 24" sections for the packing and if I pour in my lava rock it will go straight into the boiler. Will copper scrubbies or mesh hold it? Thanks
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by kimbodious »

I use SS scrubbers (+1 copper scrubber) for packing so I can’t help with advice on lava rock.
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

cmac62 wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:33 am Thanks Kimbodious. That's what I thought.

Next question is what do you use to keep the packing in the tubes? I have a 12" and 24" sections for the packing and if I pour in my lava rock it will go straight into the boiler. Will copper scrubbies or mesh hold it? Thanks
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Re: CCVM Questions

Post by cmac62 »

Thanks SCD and sorry for the late reply. Trying to figure out why nothing is coming out the condenser when I lift up the RC. Thanks again.
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