Reflux column questions

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TRK41
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Reflux column questions

Post by TRK41 »

Whats good everyone, I have a couple questions about reflux columns that ive looked for but havent found any answer for so please bare with me.

1) Ive seen people that have 4 bubble plates and people with more and a lot more. What does having more than 4 accomplish? It seems like 4 is the standard from all my reading and images ive seen. Just trying to figure out the advantages and disadvantages of having more. ( I know that putting them thru more sections produces a higher proof distillate) but where is the point of diminishing returns?

2) I know that the 4 inch columns can run about a gallon an hour and the 6 inch columns can run i think 1.8 per hour if ran optimally, but does the 6 inch column need to be heated more? Like do I need some very strong heating elements? 3k vs 4k vs 5.5k? the boiler im getting is comes with 2 element inlets. Thanks guys and gals for all the help, these questions have been really stumping me.
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Re: Reflux column questions

Post by Hambone »

4 ish plates is nice for whiskey or rum. For neutrals I’d go with a relatively high packed column…
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Re: Reflux column questions

Post by Stonecutter »

What you’re describing is just one type of reflux system… the plated column. Reflux apparatus come in a variety of shapes, sizes and controls and for most the people here it comes down to personal preference. The plated columns developed by the HD community were originally intended for making a one and done Whiskey and/or Brandy with a high abv. I think Hambone hit it on the head. The general consensus for making neutrals is to use a packed column with some sort of reflux design incorporated. The bigger the column the bigger the boiler needs to be to be able to adequately provide enough vapor product to fill such a rig. 4” is about the limit for us home distillers.
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Re: Reflux column questions

Post by bluefish_dist »

Each plate is roughly equal to a single pass through a pot still if you run a decent amount of reflux. It can be less if you run less reflux. From my experience I didn’t like 4 plates, made too clean of a product, but I probably ran more reflux and I used a vm vs the standard cm style 4 plate. You can run a cm the same way, but imho a vm is easier to run high reflux rates than a cm. I ran 2 or 3 plates for everything that wasn’t vodka. 2 for barrel aged, 3 for whites.
To hit azeo you need around 15 plates or more, up to 40. Packing acts as a plate but is cheaper to get many plates and can take up less space than most of the plate T’s available for purchase. I know people claim they hit azeo with less than 15 plates or equivalent packing, but I suspect they do not have any way to truly measure the abv accurately and are close, say 189.5+, but not truly azeo. Having used calibrated high accuracy Hydrometers, it’s quite hard to make 190+.
Power requirements change with column diameter. There is optimal vapor speeds in a column, 15-20fps is where most people run. This is a function of column diameter and power input. 2” is around 1800w, 4” 5500w, 6” 12000w. Output changes with power input. This just happens to also correspond to larger columns being able to handle more vapor at the same speed. If you run a 4” at the same power as a 2” the output will be similar. The 4” may be cleaner as the vapor speed is lower which drags less tails up the column. Once you match vapor speeds, then the larger column runs much faster.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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That was awesome guys. I have a better understanding of this now, Its a lot to grasp with hobby, way more than making beer. The scariest part of this is the cuts for me. I see people making 10s of cuts and some making just 3 or 4, that is my next thing to study, appreciate all the help guys. Thank you again.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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TRK41 wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:04 pm… The scariest part of this is the cuts for me. I see people making 10s of cuts and some making just 3 or 4, that is my next thing to study, appreciate all the help guys.
Making cuts gets easier with experience. So, start your spirit collection into at least 12 jars, preferably 18 to 20 jars. And size them accordingly. Here’s how.

You know the volume of your low wines, and it’s %ABV (measured).

For example, you’ve collected 3-1/2 gallons of low wines at an average of 30%ABV. Then, your “collected alcohol” is 3-1/2 x 0.30 = 1.05 gallons of (theoretically pure) alcohol.

But, you won’t get that out of a still. What you can expect is an average of 60 to 70%ABV out of the spirit run using a potstill. So, that would be approximately 1.05 / 0.60 = 1.75 gallons to 1.05 / 0.70 = 1.50 gallons. So, you can expect 1.75 gallons from the still, or nearly that.

Then, for 20 jars you’d need to collect approximately 1.75 / 20 = 0.0875 gallons in each jar, or roughly 20 x 332ml jars for your spirit run collection. The pint (mason) canning jars are around 380ml, so a couple dozen of those would work great.

With the collection, sample a 1/2 teaspoon with equal portion of water and record your perceptions. The solventy samples will be in the heads and the earthy or husky tasting samples will be the tails. And between is your hearts. If you start with a large group of jars, the difference between them will be small, so it may be difficult to decipher the transition. But experience will make this easier. And you’ll learn quickly. See Kiwistiller’s Guide to Making Cuts for information about how to decide good from bad.

As you gain experience, you’ll need fewer jars (sure, they’ll be bigger jars) to select your keep vs feints.
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Re: Reflux column questions

Post by bluefish_dist »

Ss is right on for how to make cuts. Personally I always did 1 tsp water to 3/4 tsp spirit. I could get people to make cuts quite quickly. Just start 40% in and taste back to the front. Stop when you don’t like the taste. On my column still I could start 3 jars from the end and stop when it tasted bad. If your tongue gets tired, stop and come back to it. Also try blending a little of what you like, then if you are questionable, add some of the next one going away from the hearts. It will either be ok or be bad. If it’s bad, don’t add the last one you mixed in. I was never good at cuts and my wife did all of them for our production. That also helped as I went nose blind to alcohol. Couldn’t smell the subtle differences after being in it all day.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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As an example of collection jars, this photo shows the different “cut points” I’ve made. The boiler charge was approximately 2-1/2 gallons of 38%ABV low wines which included some feints from a previous bourbon run and some excess rum I had on hand. This was intended to be a “salvage spirit” run for the most part.
cut jar collection
cut jar collection
Notice the jar size variation. I can estimate when to change sizes of jars because I’ve run this potsitll (my countertop gin still outlined in my signature) many, many times and I know how it produces. Also, I know (from experience) about what proportions the heads, late heads, hearts, and tails will be. So I can collect in appropriately sized jars for successful cuts.

Then, I can blend in late heads jars or early tails jars to give me the final blend flavor that I like. And it’s not “all or nothing” from the separate jars. This is where experience is necessary. It is the time when you “create” the spirit flavor you prefer. And don’t get caught up with the notion that “higher proof is better”….it isn’t. You’re crafting a spirit for your liquor cabinet, not a “distiller’s prize” for Everclear.

So, when I made my “keeper selection” from these jars, the spirit was 115 proof. I put it into 2 liter mason jars with oak chunks cut from bourbon barrel staves. And it is coloring very nicely and has a great “blended whiskey” flavor already. It is reminiscent of a Canadian whiskey with a slightly sweet flavor and the rich vanilla and subtle caramel flavors predominating. And this after only a month on wood.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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Bluefish_D thanks for that. The pat about tongue getting tired really opened my eyes because I love cooking and I can get like that fro salt sometimes, one day its great, the next day its salt af cuz i keep tasting, thanks for that top an the alcohol mixture recommendations.

S_S I That math brought a lot into perspective, i know about the abv of low wines to total content but after that i was in the dark, that really opened my eyes to what you will really collect in a run. The jar math blew my freakin mind! I will steal that from you without hesitation until i get beter at making cuts cuz this is a daunting trip for me. Really appreciate that nugget of education.

The one question I would love to ask you guys since I don want to start another useless thread is:

Low wines, I know how it works and the process of stripping the water out to get a higher abv(>40%) to start with when you collect enough for a spirit run, but wont this be a mixture of all the runs be kinda a blend of all you collected? I was really thinking of just doing a one and done method like stonecutter described, just get to the 8% to 11% beerish and make the entire run off that to make a single run whisky. Am I thinking wrong or if someone could educate me further on this maybe ill gain some perspective. Or do I open another thread on this lol
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Re: Reflux column questions

Post by Hambone »

For me, the best part of multiple strips and one spirit run is making cuts once instead of 3-4 times. That said, when learning how to make cuts the more times you do it the more experience you get…
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Re: Reflux column questions

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Just a bit of correction on stripping runs. You are stripping the alcohol out leaving water behind. If you strip low, down to say 10% the low wines mixture will be <40% (less than) which is what you want for the spirit run. The stripping run will start at someplace around 60% abv and the abv will decrease as the alcohol is removed from the boiler liquid. You can continue stripping until the product coming out is only 10 to 20% abv. Plus stripping that low will bring over more flavor if you are making a flavorful spirit like rum or whiskey.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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Thanks Hambone, ill start with the the one run to learn how to make cuts, that makes more sense.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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subbrew wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:19 am Just a bit of correction on stripping runs. You are stripping the alcohol out leaving water behind. If you strip low, down to say 10% the low wines mixture will be <40% (less than) which is what you want for the spirit run. The stripping run will start at someplace around 60% abv and the abv will decrease as the alcohol is removed from the boiler liquid. You can continue stripping until the product coming out is only 10 to 20% abv. Plus stripping that low will bring over more flavor if you are making a flavorful spirit like rum or whiskey.
Subbrew I didnt think of that at all.I just saw how people were doing stripping runs to collect more low wines to do a spirit run at the end. I know people do really hard stripping runs and some do more soft, for lack of better words, is there a better way or is it only to bring in more flavors from the low wines?
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Re: Reflux column questions

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As fast as your condenser can handle…
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Re: Reflux column questions

Post by bluefish_dist »

Don’t make a high abv wort to try and avoid a second run. You will get far better results staying around 6% abv in the wort and doing two runs or maybe more. Do several strip runs then mix them together and do a finish run. When you do a strip run you remove a lot of the water and the resulting volume may not fill the still. So do 2 or 3 strip runs until you have enough to fill the boiler for your finish run. Just do cuts on the finish run. You can toss some fores from the strip run if you like, but it’s not necessary.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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TRK41 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:44 am

Subbrew I didnt think of that at all.I just saw how people were doing stripping runs to collect more low wines to do a spirit run at the end. I know people do really hard stripping runs and some do more soft, for lack of better words, is there a better way or is it only to bring in more flavors from the low wines?
The faster you can strip (sounds kinky) the more other flavors will be brought over to the low wines. And that is dependent on how much power you can put in and how much your condenser can knock down. I have a very undersized condenser so I have to strip slow. it would actually be perfect if I wanted to make neutral as my stripping run start out about 75% abv. If I only wanted neutral I would probably stop my run when the distillate discharge reached about 30% abv. In this case my low wines might test about 50% abv. Then when I did my spirit run I would dilute the low wines to just below 40% before the run. (40% is about as high was you want a boiler fill for safety since you don't want to heat flammable liquid). This would be great for a neutral as it would leave flavor in the still and more of the stripping run charge would be flavorless water used for dilution.

But because I make rum and whiskey I strip until the output is about 15% (I would go lower but due to slow rate it is usually pushing midnight or one by then so I call it good and shut down), That way I am getting more flavor compounds in the low wines.

If I had more power and a better condenser I could push harder and my stripping run would start with more of a 60% abv output and then drop off over a shorter amount of time.

So it depends what you want. For neutral spirits you can strip a bit slower and stop a but sooner to have less flavor. For flavor strip fast and/or go deeper into the tails to bring over more flavor to the low wines.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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bluefish_dist wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:41 am Don’t make a high abv wort to try and avoid a second run. You will get far better results staying around 6% abv in the wort and doing two runs or maybe more. Do several strip runs then mix them together and do a finish run. When you do a strip run you remove a lot of the water and the resulting volume may not fill the still. So do 2 or 3 strip runs until you have enough to fill the boiler for your finish run. Just do cuts on the finish run. You can toss some fores from the strip run if you like, but it’s not necessary.
I thought you didn't have to make cuts on stripping runs? Do you still cut for foreshots? Man im super grateful everyone here is extremely helpful.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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some do cuts on foreshots and some don't. I do since my still is slow. If you don't, just do a larger cut on the stripping run. Once again, because my still is slow I was doing cuts on the stripping run just to practice but then I dumped everything into the low wines carboy except for one 200 ml sample from the hearts which I kept to be able to compare generations. As soon as I get my new still built and have power and knockdown ability I doubt I will do cuts anymore on stripping runs.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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subbrew wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:59 am
TRK41 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:44 am

Subbrew I didnt think of that at all.I just saw how people were doing stripping runs to collect more low wines to do a spirit run at the end. I know people do really hard stripping runs and some do more soft, for lack of better words, is there a better way or is it only to bring in more flavors from the low wines?
The faster you can strip (sounds kinky) the more other flavors will be brought over to the low wines. And that is dependent on how much power you can put in and how much your condenser can knock down. I have a very undersized condenser so I have to strip slow. it would actually be perfect if I wanted to make neutral as my stripping run start out about 75% abv. If I only wanted neutral I would probably stop my run when the distillate discharge reached about 30% abv. In this case my low wines might test about 50% abv. Then when I did my spirit run I would dilute the low wines to just below 40% before the run. (40% is about as high was you want a boiler fill for safety since you don't want to heat flammable liquid). This would be great for a neutral as it would leave flavor in the still and more of the stripping run charge would be flavorless water used for dilution.

But because I make rum and whiskey I strip until the output is about 15% (I would go lower but due to slow rate it is usually pushing midnight or one by then so I call it good and shut down), That way I am getting more flavor compounds in the low wines.

If I had more power and a better condenser I could push harder and my stripping run would start with more of a 60% abv output and then drop off over a shorter amount of time.

So it depends what you want. For neutral spirits you can strip a bit slower and stop a but sooner to have less flavor. For flavor strip fast and/or go deeper into the tails to bring over more flavor to the low wines.
Thanks Subbrew, Ive read about that >40% distillation. That is one thing i will need to keep in mind, i was all against stripping runs, now i think ive switched sides lol.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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bluefish_dist wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:41 am Don’t make a high abv wort to try and avoid a second run. You will get far better results staying around 6% abv in the wort and doing two runs or maybe more. Do several strip runs then mix them together and do a finish run. When you do a strip run you remove a lot of the water and the resulting volume may not fill the still. So do 2 or 3 strip runs until you have enough to fill the boiler for your finish run. Just do cuts on the finish run. You can toss some fores from the strip run if you like, but it’s not necessary.
I have a question on this as well. Is it the same as making a beer? Just without the boiling process? Basically a mash and gravity reading after to determine the ABV% ?
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Re: Reflux column questions

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TRK41 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:44 pm
bluefish_dist wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:41 am Don’t make a high abv wort to try and avoid a second run. You will get far better results staying around 6% abv in the wort and doing two runs or maybe more. Do several strip runs then mix them together and do a finish run. When you do a strip run you remove a lot of the water and the resulting volume may not fill the still. So do 2 or 3 strip runs until you have enough to fill the boiler for your finish run. Just do cuts on the finish run. You can toss some fores from the strip run if you like, but it’s not necessary.
I have a question on this as well. Is it the same as making a beer? Just without the boiling process? Basically a mash and gravity reading after to determine the ABV% ?
Yes it’s the same. I have run beers more than once to make whiskey. The best was an unhopped chocolate coffee Porter. Had a brewer make his Porter without hopps and without boiling. I took his wort, fermented it, distilled it, and aged it. Made good whiskey.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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yes, just like making beer without the hops and the boil to isomerize the hop oils. Take your OG gravity reading, pitch yeast, ferment, take your final gravity reading and determine the abv from the difference. One small difference is determining an estimated abv. With beer you will undoubtedly have some remaining sugar, i.e. your final gravity will be 1.013 more or less depending on ale, stout or other. For many of our masses, especially sugar or fruit you can expect it to ferment dry so the final gravity will be 1.000 or below.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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bluefish_dist wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:51 pm
TRK41 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:44 pm
bluefish_dist wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:41 am Don’t make a high abv wort to try and avoid a second run. You will get far better results staying around 6% abv in the wort and doing two runs or maybe more. Do several strip runs then mix them together and do a finish run. When you do a strip run you remove a lot of the water and the resulting volume may not fill the still. So do 2 or 3 strip runs until you have enough to fill the boiler for your finish run. Just do cuts on the finish run. You can toss some fores from the strip run if you like, but it’s not necessary.
I have a question on this as well. Is it the same as making a beer? Just without the boiling process? Basically a mash and gravity reading after to determine the ABV% ?
Yes it’s the same. I have run beers more than once to make whiskey. The best was an unhopped chocolate coffee Porter. Had a brewer make his Porter without hopps and without boiling. I took his wort, fermented it, distilled it, and aged it. Made good whiskey.
This is some interesting stuff here!!!!!!!!!! That just opened up a big list of "what if I" lol, thanks!!!
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Re: Reflux column questions

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subbrew wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:58 pm yes, just like making beer without the hops and the boil to isomerize the hop oils. Take your OG gravity reading, pitch yeast, ferment, take your final gravity reading and determine the abv from the difference. One small difference is determining an estimated abv. With beer you will undoubtedly have some remaining sugar, i.e. your final gravity will be 1.013 more or less depending on ale, stout or other. For many of our masses, especially sugar or fruit you can expect it to ferment dry so the final gravity will be 1.000 or below.
Subbrew, I was planning on using DADY yeast for it, not actual beer yeast to try and ferment the "beer" as dry as possible, even mashing in low to get all the sugars released from the grain to have them fermented out as low as possible. I know the corn/amylase conversion thing has caught my attention and im still trying to wrap my head around that as i found a good supply of corn for not such a bad price but thinking of mashing it with grains to get it to convert sounds like a big mess waiting to happen.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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5 runs of corn and 6 row and one with corn and amylase is what I've got under my belt so far, one wasn't any more difficult/easier than the other.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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bluefish_dist wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:20 pm 2” is around 1800w, 4” 5500w, 6” 12000w.
bluefish_dist wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:20 pm The 4” may be cleaner as the vapor speed is lower which drags less tails up the column.
Bluefish I have always thought that your power settings for a 4 inch plated column where excessive, I still do.
I normally run gas under my stills, but occasionally run some of them on an electric boiler.
I've run my four inch x 4 plate column a few times on an electric boiler with controller and each time noted the power used. I have never used more than 2500W, All other 4 inch column owners that I have met or talked to in person say that they use between 2400w and 3200 maximum.
I'm not surprised that you have problems with dragging tails up the column using that much power.
Plated columns are a juggling act between power and reflux, but excessive power input is not the answer to a good result IMO.
Ive bought this up because I don't want newbs with plated columns thinking that 5500W under a 4 plater 4 inch is going to be a magical solution to any problems they might be having.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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Corn Cracker wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:10 pm 5 runs of corn and 6 row and one with corn and amylase is what I've got under my belt so far, one wasn't any more difficult/easier than the other.
CC, when you do your corn runs, do you use a mesh bag to mash in? I was thinking of using my eBIAB vessel but i think the corn would probably give me a stuck mash.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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Yes, they were all mashed in in a mesh bag, i learned ya have to get the corn up to at least 180 to gelatinous state and cool back down to 150 before adding malts or enzymes. I only had 1batch not get to 0, my first got stuck but i had an 1100ish sg and 1020ish final. Not a big deal i guess, still plenty of abv.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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TRK41 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:43 pm
Corn Cracker wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:10 pm 5 runs of corn and 6 row and one with corn and amylase is what I've got under my belt so far, one wasn't any more difficult/easier than the other.
CC, when you do your corn runs, do you use a mesh bag to mash in? I was thinking of using my eBIAB vessel but i think the corn would probably give me a stuck mash.
if you can get high temp enzymes look up Booners casual corn in tried and true section.
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Re: Reflux column questions

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:26 pm
bluefish_dist wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:20 pm 2” is around 1800w, 4” 5500w, 6” 12000w.
bluefish_dist wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:20 pm The 4” may be cleaner as the vapor speed is lower which drags less tails up the column.
Bluefish I have always thought that your power settings for a 4 inch plated column where excessive, I still do.
I normally run gas under my stills, but occasionally run some of them on an electric boiler.
I've run my four inch x 4 plate column a few times on an electric boiler with controller and each time noted the power used. I have never used more than 2500W, All other 4 inch column owners that I have met or talked to in person say that they use between 2400w and 3200 maximum.
I'm not surprised that you have problems with dragging tails up the column using that much power.
Plated columns are a juggling act between power and reflux, but excessive power input is not the answer to a good result IMO.
Ive bought this up because I don't want newbs with plated columns thinking that 5500W under a 4 plater 4 inch is going to be a magical solution to any problems they might be having.
I know my numbers are higher than most on here, but I was looking for the fastest I could run. I worked hard to get it to run that fast. You can always slow it down, but those are good max rates based on vapor speed limit. Also your setup might not be able to handle that much vapor. I found normal caps from still dragon would flood at less than 4kw. The pro caps were better and could go higher, But they are really expensive. Seive plates easily ran circles around them in speed and cost . I have run over 6kw, but prefer to stay under 20fps, which is about 5.5kw. Running 110 gal through a 4” is a long day. Even a 6” at 12kw was a long day.

Another thing may be how I handled reflux. I adjusted it to hold a desired abv/temp. Whites 165 ish, aged 135-145. I would go higher than that at the start of a run, but never lower. That may be why I could run high vapor speeds and not pull tails through. The plates could certainly do it without flooding.
Formerly
Dsp-CO-20051
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