Question on mash & setteling

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MidgetFarms
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Question on mash & setteling

Post by MidgetFarms »

Hi all,

Trying to figure something out.

I have my still built & basically figured out. Now it's time to learn how to make a mash.

This is my third try & i'm jumping off my high horse of becoming the greatest all grain distiller that ever lived to something more humble like can i actually ferment anything.

My first two attempts failed.

So this time i'm slowing down and doing it step by step.

8lbs cracked corn. 4G water. Cooked & simmered for an hour.

I let it cool slowly- wrapped in a blanket. When it cooled to 160 degrees i added 2 teaspoons of amylase & wrapped it back up for the night.

This morning I took it off the grain - after rinsing the corn i had about 6 gallons of cloudy mash.

I then boiled 2G of water & 5lb of cane sugar.

Split between 2 5g carboys - 4G in each.

So my question is this. The mash almost immediately settled into layers. Thick yellow at the bottom- cloudy yellow at the top.

Do i agitate this? Will my SG be off?

Beginning sg is 1.035
Ph is 4.5
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still_stirrin
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by still_stirrin »

MidgetFarms wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:57 am —> 8lbs cracked corn.
—> 4G water.
Cooked & simmered for an hour… When it cooled to 160 degrees i added 2 teaspoons of amylase & wrapped it back up for the night.
note - your amylase enzymes were denatured completely at that temperature.

This morning I took it off the grain - after rinsing the corn i had about 6 gallons of cloudy mash.
note - the “cloudiness” was likely a bacterial infection starting to work in the corn mash.

I then boiled 2G of water & 5lb of cane sugar. Split between 2 (two) 5g carboys - 4G in each.
note - this is really the only fermentable material you’ve got. The corn is mostly just flavor and acid, due to the bacterial souring overnight.

So my question is this. The mash almost immediately settled into layers. Thick yellow at the bottom- cloudy yellow at the top. Do i agitate this? Will my SG be off?
note - go ahead and stir it, it can’t “hurt”. Stirring will help “homogenize” the temperatures instead of keeping it stratified.

Beginning sg is 1.035
Ph is 4.5
So, you’ve not really “mashed” a grain mash. You’ve spent extra effort at making a corn-flavored sugar wash. Your OG proves my point that you haven’t extracted much fermentable material from the corn.

Next time, mill the corn to a fine grist, or semi-course cornmeal consistency. And when you gelatinize it by boiling, or simmering for an hour, you’ll notice that it becomes thick like a “pudding”.

Then, add 5 gallons of 150*F water to 3 lb. of crushed barley malt (from the homebrew store) and stir in your corn pudding. Keep stirring the mixture until the temperature is stabilized around 148* to 152*F and let it convert the starches to sugars. It will take 2 to 3 hours, at least for this to complete.

You can check for starch conversion with a drop of iodine on a small spoonful of the mash liquid. Do this on a clean saucer, not in the mash itself.

Once the iodine check is good: it won’t change color from amber to purple-black anymore, you can proceed to the mash tun. If you want to supplement with sugar, then go ahead, but check the specific gravity first. Don’t overshoot the 1.064 to 1.070 target, as it will cause stress for the yeast.
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by contrahead »

MidgetFarms wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:57 am This is my third try & i'm jumping off my high horse of becoming the greatest all grain distiller that ever lived to something more humble like can i actually ferment anything.
Like SS said; you probabbly killed your amylase enzymes.

Otherwise, be patient.
It may take a few days for a ferment to start working.
This is wintertime. The temperature influences the activity of the yeast.
Agitate a mash well for the first couple of days, with the aim to whip oxygen into the mixture; this helps the yeast reproduce. Once the yeasts start making gas then you install an airlock, which deprives them of oxygen and persuades them to start making ethanol.
Be patient.

(Beginning distillers should be encouraged to start with fermenting a wine at first. It's much easier to succede with a wine or a sugar wash than a grain mash. All that is needed is to buy a few gallons of cheap fruit juice (without preservatives), then pitch the yeast and sit back and wait. Then they can put their new still to work. With a couple of simple runs under their belt, novice distillers would then be better prepared to tackle a grain fermentation).
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MidgetFarms
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by MidgetFarms »

Excellent advice guys!

Sincere thank you.

Is it possible to reheat the mash & re-pitch the amylase?

Im not apposed to just boiling the whole batch again & trying to convert it again. This time off the grain.

I did get a good thick gravy & though it was thinner in the morning i suspect some of the layers are just thick starch. I stretched a brew bag across a clean bucket, plopped the grain on it & then rinsed with clean water. What filtered through the bag is my mash off the grain.

You guys know better than me - but wouldn't boiling it & keeping it covered sterilize it?
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by still_stirrin »

At this point, I’d just let it go as it is. It isn’t worth the mess and hassle to try to squeeze a little more sugar from the corn grist. You’ve pitched yeast already and it’s working. Keep it warm and let the yeast work it off.

But NEXT TIME, change your methods. And, I strongly urge you to add some malted barley to the mash (at 150*F tho). It will provide more “live” enzymes, although enzymes are not living organisms, just chemicals that feed the organic processes.

I also urge you to go to a homebrew website (there are many) and follow their forums to learn beer brewing processes and techniques. It will help you here.
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by Ben »

Another good option if you are going to be doing all corn is to get one of the high temp enzymes (sebstar htl for instance) and chuck it in at 180 then let cool further, do a starch test. This should get most of what you want done. You can throw in another amalyse at 150 (sebamyl GL, powder etc) then cool. The liquid or powdered amalyse enzymes will work at lower temperatures and you could add some in now... just takes a lot longer.
:)
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by squigglefunk »

I don't like the powder amalaze, it never worked great for me (dunno if that's because the shtuff I got was only 4% enzyme and the rest dextrose, shoulda read the label first!)
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Uncle B
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by Uncle B »

You'll see this linked elsewhere on here (so apologies if it's redundant), but John Palmer's book, How to Brew, was a terrific resource for me when I jumped into grains. It has just about everything you need to know about mashing and enzymes, and is an easy read.

A free, online version is here: http://www.howtobrew.com/
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by TwoSheds »

MidgetFarms wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:09 am Is it possible to reheat the mash & re-pitch the amylase?
If you just want to pull a little more abv out of this to make it more worth the run you could just add some sugar. There are calculators for how much, but don't push it past the 10% potential alcohol between this AND your original sugar reading so you don't stress your yeast.
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by MidgetFarms »

TwoSheds wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:53 am
MidgetFarms wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:09 am Is it possible to reheat the mash & re-pitch the amylase?
If you just want to pull a little more abv out of this to make it more worth the run you could just add some sugar. There are calculators for how much, but don't push it past the 10% potential alcohol between this AND your original sugar reading so you don't stress your yeast.
Ok. I'm going to start this part over.

I knew that I needed to add the malt or amylase @ a certain temp & i tried to retain as much as i could with the blanket.

But there is no way it was 140 to 150 degrees for 2 hours.

I will re-heat to sterilize & then hold at 150 for 2 hours with fresh amalase
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by MidgetFarms »

I'll get the book!

I've read a lot. But i learn best by doing.

As i tell my wife....if i've ever learned anything i've learned it the hard way.

I'm just trying to transfer what i've read into what i do.

I also have the 4% amylase powder but i've followed the dosing guidelines. I think i just need to keep it warm longer.

All great advice guys i truly appreciate it!

I have to go to the store for iodine.

Thanks!
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by NormandieStill »

squigglefunk wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:43 am I don't like the powder amalaze, it never worked great for me (dunno if that's because the shtuff I got was only 4% enzyme and the rest dextrose, shoulda read the label first!)
That's completely normal. If it was 100% enzyme you wouldn't have the measuring equipment required to dose it correctly. (e.g. 1 teaspoon of 4% enzyme would be 4% of a teaspoon at 100% enzyme!) Follow the instructions and it'll do what it's supposed to do.
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by squigglefunk »

NormandieStill wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:26 pm
squigglefunk wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:43 am I don't like the powder amalaze, it never worked great for me (dunno if that's because the shtuff I got was only 4% enzyme and the rest dextrose, shoulda read the label first!)
That's completely normal. If it was 100% enzyme you wouldn't have the measuring equipment required to dose it correctly. (e.g. 1 teaspoon of 4% enzyme would be 4% of a teaspoon at 100% enzyme!) Follow the instructions and it'll do what it's supposed to do.
I did follow the directions and compared to the Sebstar high temp stuff it just didn't seem to work nearly as good. Maybe it was old/expired or something?
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by NormandieStill »

I think the high temp stuff just works faster because high temperatures mean more chemical reactions. I know my high temp enzymes seem to start working near instantly where as the powder stuff normally specifies days in the instructions.
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by Ben »

The powdered stuff is often used in brewing during the ferment to dry the final product out. There doesn't seem to be that much info available on it. The liquid stuff has been working good for me too.
:)
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by subbrew »

MidgetFarms wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:16 pm I'll get the book!

I've read a lot. But i learn best by doing.

As i tell my wife....if i've ever learned anything i've learned it the hard way.

I'm just trying to transfer what i've read into what i do.

I also have the 4% amylase powder but i've followed the dosing guidelines. I think i just need to keep it warm longer.

All great advice guys i truly appreciate it!

I have to go to the store for iodine.

Thanks!
You need to grind the corn. If you are using cracked corn the amylase cant get to the starch. once the corn is ground (gives lots of surface area) and has been boiled for at least an hour (so the starches gelatinize) then the enzymes can attach the starches and break them down into sugar.
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by shadylane »

MidgetFarms wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:09 am
Is it possible to reheat the mash & re-pitch the amylase?
Figure it's a small batch and a small mistake.
Remember what you learned from it and start another mash. :wink:
Next time don't use the powdered amylase.
Get a couple small bottles of high temp alpha and gluco.
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squigglefunk
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by squigglefunk »

:thumbup: throw a bag of sugar in there and call it good :lol:
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Re: Question on mash & setteling

Post by MidgetFarms »

shadylane wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:45 am
MidgetFarms wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:09 am
Is it possible to reheat the mash & re-pitch the amylase?
Figure it's a small batch and a small mistake.
Remember what you learned from it and start another mash. :wink:
Next time don't use the powdered amylase.
Get a couple small bottles of high temp alpha and gluco.
THIS!

it took me way too long to get here but i figured it out.

Since i was using amylase powder & not malted barley i didn't realize i have no Alpha amylase at all.

Ordered a bottle- should last me a while.

I have another question- but im going to search for the answer b4 i repeat something that's been asked a zillion times.

Thanks team! You guys got me over the hump!
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