13kw shotgun cooler projekt

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Whotan
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13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by Whotan »

beautiful good day.
I wanted to ask how big a shotgun condenser has to be.

Or do you think a normal love is better?

How about the measurements?

For a 13000w burner and 28 gallon pot?

I used the calculator.
I was told it doesn't work


My water inlet temperature is 12 -20c
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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by The Baker »

Or do you think a normal love is better?

Sorry I missed something there, I think.

Certainly normal love is great...

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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by Whotan »

a normal liebig condenser ! :oops: U
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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by Whotan »

I want to know how long and wide the pipes have to be?
And how many for a shotgun condenser.
My English is not that good .
That's why I use the translator.
I hope you understand me and can help me.?!
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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Whotan wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:35 am beautiful good day.
I wanted to ask how big a shotgun condenser has to be.

Or do you think a normal love is better?

How about the measurements?

For a 13000w burner and 28 gallon pot?

I used the calculator.
I was told it doesn't work


My water inlet temperature is 12 -20c
A shotgun condenser will knock down 13kw as long as there is an adequate number of tubes, an adequate length and an adequate flow of water. I know this is a really vague answer, but I'll elaborate a bit. I made a 2" x 24" shotgun with seven 1/2" OD x 0.430" ID copper pipe. I run on well water and do not recycle the water. I use 1/4" OD tubing for the water. It would easily knock down 5500W, but could not handle 11000W with the amount of water flow I was using (plumbed with 1/4" OD tubing). I made another identical shotgun, connected them together and it easily knocked down 11000W, but the exiting water was nearly boiling which may exceed the max temp of the tubing. That tells me I need to use larger diameter tubing for the water so I can provide a higher water flow and the exiting water temp would be significantly lower. Now in theory it is possible for one of the shotguns to knock down 11000W if the water flow was really high, but that didn't sit well with me which is why I just made it longer instead.

You could make one relatively long 2" shotgun or link two 2" shorter shotguns and it will work. You could make a 3" shotgun with up to seven 1/2" ID copper pipes and it wouldn't need to be quite as long as a 2" shotgun. It's all about the total surface area of the copper pipes and the water flow. The more copper, the more knock down power with an adequate flow of water.

I'm not sure why someone said "it doesn't work". If you were to make a 2" shotgun, I enter 13000W in the Condenser Size Calculator and for the inner diameter I entered 13.843mm (which is the ID for 1/2" copper pipe type L), it says you need 239" of 1/2" copper pipe in your shotgun. If you use 4 pipes, your shotgun needs to be 59.75" long. If you used seven 1/2" OD x 0.430" (10.922mm) D type L pipe, it says I need 370" of pipe. Using 7 pipes, that would be a total of 53".

Now if you made a 3" shotgun using 1/2" type L copper pipe 0.545" ID (13.843mm), you would need 293". If you used 7 pipes, the shotgun would be 42" long.

A shotgun condenser is just a heat exchanger that is more efficient than a Liebig condenser because it has more knock down power per inch.
Last edited by Salt Must Flow on Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Since you're using gas, it could be wise to use a long condenser to keep the flammable product and potential vapors well away from the flame. A Liebig condenser may be excessively long if you do the calculations. A shotgun with multiple pipes would be significantly shorter, but would likely cost more to build.

A worm (a long copper coil in a body of water) would probably be the most cost effective condenser. That's probably what I would make if I were in your place, unless you have a big budget and do not mind the expense.
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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by Twisted Brick »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:25 am
I'm not sure why someone said "it doesn't work". If you were to make a 2" shotgun, I enter 13000W in the Condenser Size Calculator and for the inner diameter I entered 13.843mm (which is the ID for 1/2" copper pipe type L), it says you need 239" of 1/2" copper pipe in your shotgun. If you use 4 pipes, your shotgun needs to be 59.75" long. If you used seven 1/2" OD x 0.430" (10.922mm) D type L pipe, it says I need 370" of pipe. Using 7 pipes, that would be a total of 53".
To be honest, a 5' long shotty is grossly over-sized and not required when a much shorter one will do fine. Those few who go ~30" are left with an overbuilt condenser that they rightfully complain is heavy. A member here posted that his well-cooled 20" shotty could handle 100k btu's (30kw).

Also, plugging in SoMoFo's numbers into the Condenser Calculator indicates 14lpm or 222gph is required to get a takeoff distillate temperature of 95F.

To knock down 13kw I feel your shotgun’s dimensions can be a 2” shell and length of 21-22” with 4 x ½” (ID) vapor tubes, provided you have enough coolant flow. On a strip I put 11kw through a 3" copper pot into my shotgun and with 70gph coolant flow the shotgun doesn't blink. If I had to guess, it would knock down ~15-16kw on the same coolant rate. Internal baffles also contribute to performance, especially if using coolant from a reservoir that normally heats up over the course of a run. Your shotgun performance may be compromised should you use undersized coolant I/O tubes (less than 1/2") or try to stuff seven 1/2" vapor tubes into a 2" shell.

The link to my shotgun build is below my sig. Any questions you may have on construction just holler.

Here are some other members' thoughts on shotgun dimensions:

Still_stirrin shotgun analysis

Shotgun Design Guidelines

Will my shotgun condenser keep up?

Shotgun Proportions
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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Twisted Brick wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:11 pm
Salt Must Flow wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:25 am
I'm not sure why someone said "it doesn't work". If you were to make a 2" shotgun, I enter 13000W in the Condenser Size Calculator and for the inner diameter I entered 13.843mm (which is the ID for 1/2" copper pipe type L), it says you need 239" of 1/2" copper pipe in your shotgun. If you use 4 pipes, your shotgun needs to be 59.75" long. If you used seven 1/2" OD x 0.430" (10.922mm) D type L pipe, it says I need 370" of pipe. Using 7 pipes, that would be a total of 53".
To be honest, a 5' long shotty is grossly over-sized and not required when a much shorter one will do fine. Those few who go ~30" are left with an overbuilt condenser that they rightfully complain is heavy. A member here posted that his well-cooled 20" shotty could handle 100k btu's (30kw).

Also, plugging in SoMoFo's numbers into the Condenser Calculator indicates 14lpm or 222gph is required to get a takeoff distillate temperature of 95F.

To knock down 13kw I feel your shotgun’s dimensions can be a 2” shell and length of 21-22” with 4 x ½” (ID) vapor tubes, provided you have enough coolant flow. On a strip I put 11kw through a 3" copper pot into my shotgun and with 70gph coolant flow the shotgun doesn't blink. If I had to guess, it would knock down ~15-16kw on the same coolant rate. Internal baffles also contribute to performance, especially if using coolant from a reservoir that normally heats up over the course of a run. Your shotgun performance may be compromised should you use undersized coolant I/O tubes (less than 1/2") or try to stuff seven 1/2" vapor tubes into a 2" shell.

The link to my shotgun build is below my sig. Any questions you may have on construction just holler.

Here are some other members' thoughts on shotgun dimensions:

Still_stirrin shotgun analysis

Shotgun Design Guidelines

Will my shotgun condenser keep up?

Shotgun Proportions
When using that calculator it never occurred to me to fiddle with the water temp variables. I agree a longer shotgun could be considered overkill, but like I said before, it all depends on the water flow rate. I had 5' of 2" copper pipe, made one shotgun and figured why not just make another. I like to use a long riser so I can collect product at table height so the overall length doesn't bother me. Weight isn't a factor because my 3" Tri-Clamp column is stout and it isn't affected by it at all.

Do you feed your shotgun with recirculated water at high flow rate? The main issue I had with flow rate using well water is the exiting water temp being near boiling. Even when coming off that hot, the majority of the condenser was plenty cool. Again, I don't recirculate water so I either have to deal with extremely hot exiting water or a higher flow rate down the drain.
Also, plugging in SoMoFo's numbers into the Condenser Calculator indicates 14lpm or 222gph is required to get a takeoff distillate temperature of 95F.
Which numbers? The numbers I entered were for a longer shotgun you are talking about and left the other inputs as their default. That confuses me.
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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by Deplorable »

I'm not an engineer, and I don't pretend to be one on the interwebz but what I do know from my own experience is that a 22 inch long 2" shotgun with four 20 inch long 1/2" tubes and 5 baffles will adequately knock down anything I could throw at it if I give it enough cooling water.
I thinks it's more about vapor temperature and vapor velocity than it is about total BTU you're putting into the boiler.
I'd think if your shotty isn't knocking down all your vapors, you can do one of three things.
Lower your vapor speed, so it allows more dwell time in the condenser, increase the cooling water flow rate, or build a bigger heat exchanger.
My condenser performs well enough with 1/4" ID cooling lines to strip at full power on my 5500w boiler and 2" still.
If I was to add more power, I'd likely still find it to be sufficient by changing to a larger diameter cooling water line, but use more water. Unless, of course I built a recirculating water supply with and adequate radiator to chill the water back down before entering back into the reservoir.
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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by Twisted Brick »

I too am not an engineer (far from it). My post was to respond to the OP's request, so was formulated as such. I use a 30gal coolant reservoir. If you are not able to use a reservoir/pump to increase coolant flow/efficiency consider it an opportunity for a unique workaround which you have already done.

I entered 70F (22C) coolant temp to match actual and entered coolant exit temp of 95F (35C), the mid-point of temps I get on a typical spirit run; (I erred by stating it was distillate exit temp when I should have said coolant exit temp). I also used 83F as vapor temp since vapor temp rises over the course of run. If you fiddle with the variables, maybe you can explain why inputting a progressively lower vapor temps results in the calculator calling for increases in required condenser length.

At the risk of hijacking this thread, I will mention that as per the above example, this calculator has flaws. It was designed to address the sizing requirements for a liebig and assigns a fixed heat-transfer (htc) coefficient (850) which is acknowledged as a random 'typical' number. BTW, the 850 assumes the strong coolant flow of a commercial shell and tube condenser, while many members who focus on costs must minimize their coolant flow. Liebigs don't have a fixed htc, because if one variable is changed (length-diameter-ratio, angle, coolant temp change, temp difference, wattage, ABV etc) the htc changes. Further, a condenser has two htc's that need to be measured: a condensing htc, and a cooling htc. But where to measure where one ends and the other begins? This distinction is bypassed because of the large number of variables required to solve the puzzle. In short, the calculator is less-than-perfect, and if you read the instructions.... they even state that the calculator is based on guesses that provide only an approximation, and that if one is unsure of the condenser sizes it recommends, simply 'double them' for insurance. There are folks here who know 10x more than I do about the calculator, but hopefully this explains why its a good idea to recommend it only as a rough tool.
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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by StillerBoy »

I use a 4 tubes, 2 baffles, 2" x 6" shotgun for stripping with using 3/8" ID inlet/outlet and lines.. it will handle 5300w with just over 1.5L per min water flow at 50*F, and handled 3500w with just over 1L per min water flow at 50*F with a distillate temp around 70 -75*F, or I increase the flow at get a 60*F..

A product condenser does 2 things, one, it condenses vapors, and two, cools the distillate.. I'm no engineer either, just knowledge gain from building and using them, and if a 6" does the job stated above, then I would not go more than 24" to 30" max.. having stated that, I have very cold water, which is a major requirement, and secondly, also requires properly design baffles spaced every 2 inch, not the commonly used half moon as they create hot spots..

Just my two cents from having built a good number of them, and I'm one who don't like long PC..

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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by The Baker »

Whotan wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:08 am I want to know how long and wide the pipes have to be?
And how many for a shotgun condenser.
My English is not that good .
That's why I use the translator.
I hope you understand me and can help me.?!
Your English is quite good.
I wish I could speak more than a few words of other languages.

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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by 30xs »

I’m no engineer either, but with a burner I’d just go liebig. Keeps the output away from the flame and just because you have a large burner size, how often would you really be wide open. Couple that with the heat lost to the surrounding…. The occasional overfilling of a jar, spilling or splashing six feet from the flame instead of onto it seems the better choice.
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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by shadylane »

30xs wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:26 pm I’m no engineer either, but with a burner I’d just go liebig. .
I'd build a liebig with a 1.5 X 60 inch long jacket and a 1 inch inside.

Here's a 1.5 X 30 Inch jacket with a 1 inch tube.
It can easily condense 7kw
DSCF0018 (2) (600x800).jpg
DSCF0016 (600x800).jpg
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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by EricTheRed »

Just for reference
24" SS shotty
7 x 3/8" tubes
On 3kw gives me 17c distillate with a trickle of water. And i do mean trickle
Input water at 17c
Output is around 50c
I believe according to calc it would easily handle vastly more with increased flow
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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by Salt Must Flow »

EricTheRed is spot on and his experience matches mine perfectly. Just a trickle is needed. There's nothing wrong with a short shotgun or a longer one. It all just boils down to the water flow and just how HOT of water you want coming out the other end. You just can't expect to run at 13000kw and expect low water flow with a short one. Even a longer shotgun needs a decent amount of water flow when running at very high power just to keep boiling water from exiting, but even if it is boiling, the product/condensate will be cool if the water that enters is cool.

I just don't mind a bit of overkill if I'm going to be putting the effort in to construct something.
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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by Chauncey »

StillerBoy wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:44 pm I use a 4 tubes, 2 baffles, 2" x 6" shotgun for stripping with using 3/8" ID inlet/outlet and lines.. it will handle 5300w with just over 1.5L per min water flow at 50*F, and handled 3500w with just over 1L per min water flow at 50*F with a distillate temp around 70 -75*F, or I increase the flow at get a 60*F..

A product condenser does 2 things, one, it condenses vapors, and two, cools the distillate.. I'm no engineer either, just knowledge gain from building and using them, and if a 6" does the job stated above, then I would not go more than 24" to 30" max.. having stated that, I have very cold water, which is a major requirement, and secondly, also requires properly design baffles spaced every 2 inch, not the commonly used half moon as they create hot spots..

Just my two cents from having built a good number of them, and I'm one who don't like long PC..

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DSC021361.jpg

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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by Twisted Brick »

Chauncey wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:43 pm
That's some damn fine work mars.
+1

I'm always amazed at the aesthetic value of your work, Mars. They are a fine example of what is possible in this craft.
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Re: 13kw shotgun cooler projekt

Post by StillerBoy »

Chauncey wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:43 pm That's some damn fine work mars.
Twisted Brick wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:44 am I'm always amazed at the aesthetic value of your work, Mars. They are a fine example of what is possible in this craft.
Thanks guys.. I'm of the view that, if I'm going to babysit them, I want to enjoy the time with them and their efficiency..

TB.. you've done some fine work yourself..

Mars
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