Winding a Coil Condenser

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Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby HookLine » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:40 pm

Tutorial on how I do it, with lots of pics.

If anything is not clear, let me know.

There are several formats available:

••••••••••••
.PDF format (full file)

Winding a Coil Condenser.pdf (1.37mb)
••••••••••••
.webarchive format

Winding a Coil Condenser - Part 1 of 2.webarchive.zip (1.48mb)

Winding a Coil Condenser - Part 2 of 2.webarchive.zip (1.37mb)
••••••••••••
.doc format

Winding a Coil Condenser - Part 1 of 2.doc.zip (1.49mb)

Winding a Coil Condenser - Part 2 of 2.doc.zip (1.38mb)
••••••••••••

For PC users, probably the best thing to do with the .doc version is to use Word to convert it to either 'web page', or .pdf format. It will be easier to read. (Conversion has been done).

For Mac users, I would recommend just getting the .webarchive format.


(ADMIN note)
The original 2 files were larger than max file size allowed by HD forums. Thus, Hook hosted them on an external hosting site. Those files were hijacked a few weeks back by some hacker. Thus we took this post offline, until we received clean original files from Hookline. He split the original files, into 2 smaller parts each, which these smaller parts were small enough they would fit into the size constraints we have placed on the forum setup. Also, I (Husker), converted the .doc into a .pdf file, and have placed that onto this page. If you have downloaded these files months ago, and they were valid .doc or .webarchive, then the version you have is the same version as what is hosted here. If you downloaded these files a month ago (or recently), but have not opened them up, it is recommended that you delete those downloads, and do not open them, and obtain a correct fresh copy from this post. If there are any questions at all, simply send a PM to Husker.
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby Kentucky shinner » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:58 am

Thank you so much for this Hook. You are trully and artist when it comes to copper.. Your tutorial is very good, great job on explaining each step of this process.
This was a great help for me, as I am building a new 2" bok and I will be winding a double coil.
Thanks man
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby tryingitout » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:55 am

Hook I would love to see how to wind a coil, but can't seem to be able to download it. I keep getting a different page. :(

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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby Kentucky shinner » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:29 pm

hey tryingitout, when you go the the other page click the download button and the file will downlaod to your pc.
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby cob » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:01 pm

very clear and concise. thanks.
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby HookLine » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:12 pm

Yep, you have to do it 2 steps, go to the page I linked to, then click the download button on that page.

Thanks for the comments. 8)
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby LWTCS » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:46 pm

HookLine wrote:Thanks for the comments.


Drift,,,,Look good in green boss :wink: :mrgreen:
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby HookLine » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:55 am

Look good in green boss

Damn, that sounds familiar. :wink:
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby tryingitout » Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:40 am

Ok finally was able to look at it, but was not able to open for the link. I had to copy and paste the ULR to address bar to get to it, don’t know why. Very nice tutorial, can’t wait to try it when wrist is better.
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby ct1870 » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:43 am

Thanks Hook, I have tried to build a coil twice and have failed. I bought another roll of copper about weeks ago and was about to mail it you and let you build me one. :oops: But I Think I have the confidence to try one more time. I have been looking for a post like this for 2 weeks. Thanks again! :P
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby Samohon » Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:17 am

Hook, you've created a very helpful tut. I am now home and ready to roll my coil and construct my bok. Could'nt come at a better time..
Thanks man..

S
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby Bushman » Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:36 am

I tried to look at the pictures in both doc and pdf. When it redirected me to the page I did not see anything that said download? I see upload but that did not work? I consider myself fairly computer savy but this one is not working for me!
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby HookLine » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:37 am

Fixed it. Try again.
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby Bushman » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:06 am

Thanks, worked great.
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby bencornish » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:48 pm

This is a awesome Document.

Interested in Selling one ?
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby Bushman » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:40 am

OK, it took me two tries to make my condenser coil. I figure that was a really cheap learning curve. I used a combination on 3 different posts from this forum to get it done, thanks to Hookline, dixiedrifter, and I could not find the third person to thank. My successful coil was made from a poor mans pillow block (wood with holes through it to fit the mandrel described in dixiedrifters post). My successful run was after trying to turn without salt. I ended up using salt and after finishing I cut the cardboard out between the two coils (took about 10 min.) then I rolled the coil between my hands to get as much salt out as possible. Then with a combination of rolling and using my compressor with a small needle nose handle I blew the rest of the salt out (took about 20 min not the six hours some people reported). I tried to upload a picture but not sure how to upload an image to the board.

I made the coil from 1/4" OD copper that I will put into a 2" column. I am going to build a VM system and use a keg for the boiler with propane for the heat source. Being a new person I will have lots of questions during my building stage. My next step is to build the Liebig, I think I will use 1/2" inner with 3/4". My question is when I run the cooling water, I will be using a pond pump, as it goes through the liebig and then up to the condenser coil what should I use for a fitting and a hose or line between the two?
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby HookLine » Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:06 am

Forgot to mention. For a 75 mm (3") coil, I use 25 mm (1") inner mandrels, and a 50 mm (2") outer mandrel. This size is a fair bit easier than the 50 mm version. But 75 mm is about the limit for this double coil design, above that size the gaps between the coils gets too big.

Bushman wrote:My question is when I run the cooling water, I will be using a pond pump, as it goes through the liebig and then up to the condenser coil what should I use for a fitting and a hose or line between the two?

I don't use a pump system, so don't know what others use. But for the coil condenser you could go to a refrigeration trade supplier and get two 1/4-1/2" copper reducers. Solder them onto the 1/4" condenser tails, and solder a standard 1/2" brass hose fitting (thread or barb) on the other side.

Congrats on the coil.
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby Samohon » Tue May 18, 2010 2:55 pm

Finally, after 3 try's and 2 disappointments:

Image

I made it from 3/16" (4.75mm) copper brake line, (gave my mate the mechanic a bottle of the sweet stuff :esurprised: ). The coils are a bit closer together than I would've liked, so I increased the overall length of the coil to 270mm. Was very easy to work with. There seems to be a very steep learning curve when winding one of these coils. The first time I tried it, I beat the world speed record for rolling a coil with 1/4" copper, no kinks, but all over the place with it. The second time made a very nice single 1/4" coil with 3/4 coldfinger, turned out OK, but I was determined to roll that double coil as Hook makes it look so easy.

I decided to downsize to 3/16", as stated in the tutorial, it was a breeze to roll. No salt, water or kinks. It's still important to remember that as the copper is anealed when new, once the bending starts, it hardens and it is this hardening of the worked copper that causes the kinking, IMHO, when winding it too fast. Tip:TAKE IT VERY SLOWLY. I just tried rolling a piece of 3/8 (7.75mm) and it works very well.

Once again Hook, Thanks man, if your ever in Scotland, drop by my house anytime, I'm sure I'll find something for us to drink... :mrgreen:

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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby Kentucky shinner » Tue May 18, 2010 3:00 pm

very nice looking coil there bud... is that bottles of Sweetfeed whiskey there behind them my freind? :ebiggrin:
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby Samohon » Tue May 18, 2010 3:07 pm

Sure is KS, seems I'm always rewarding myself when I do something that works out well :D . Now to solder those slant plates into position, mmmmm. :roll:

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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby HookLine » Tue May 18, 2010 6:38 pm

Nice work, Mr S.

Samohon wrote:I made it from 3/16" (4.75mm) copper brake line, (gave my mate the mechanic a bottle of the sweet stuff :esurprised: ). The coils are a bit closer together than I would've liked, so I increased the overall length of the coil to 270mm. Was very easy to work with.

3/16" is much easier than 1/4". It is also a more efficient heat exchanger, so you did not need to go to 270 mm, I would have stuck to 150 mm. Also the longer you make the coil the more back pressure there is to the coolant flow.

There seems to be a very steep learning curve when winding one of these coils.

Sure is.

The first time I tried it, I beat the world speed record for rolling a coil with 1/4" copper, no kinks, but all over the place with it. The second time made a very nice single 1/4" coil with 3/4 coldfinger, turned out OK, but I was determined to roll that double coil as Hook makes it look so easy.

Only easy after I had climbed that learning curve. And I did not have much instructions to work with, had to just buy a full roll of tube and practice. 8)

I decided to downsize to 3/16", as stated in the tutorial, it was a breeze to roll. No salt, water or kinks. It's still important to remember that as the copper is anealed when new, once the bending starts, it hardens and it is this hardening of the worked copper that causes the kinking, IMHO, when winding it too fast. Tip:TAKE IT VERY SLOWLY.

Yup. Especially when you are first trying it.

I just tried rolling a piece of 3/8 (7.75mm) and it works very well.

3/8" can be rolled, but I could never reliably make a double coil with it. The changeover from the inner to the outer coil was the big sticking point. And 3/8" is generally just a lot more difficult to wind, it work hardens much faster than 1/4".

Also, be careful describing tube in this way - "3/8 (7.75mm)". I think you are mixing inside and outside diameters. 3/8" = 9.5 mm. The tube I use is measured by outside diameter.


Once again Hook, Thanks man, if your ever in Scotland, drop by my house anytime, I'm sure I'll find something for us to drink... :mrgreen:

I hope so!

Cheers


And just a quick reminder to all you eager coil winders out there, I use thick walled tube.
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby LWTCS » Tue May 18, 2010 7:30 pm

Hook,
How tight do you recon one could get 3/4 to wind?

1/2 ?
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby HookLine » Wed May 19, 2010 12:10 am

LWTCS wrote:Hook,
How tight do you recon one could get 3/4 to wind?

1/2 ?

I would be surprised if you can reliably wind 3/4" around anything less than maybe 2.5", and for 1/2" around 1.25".

Not to mention that bigger tubing work hardens faster. Lot of annealing to do tight turns.

You gonna try it?
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby Samohon » Wed May 19, 2010 2:42 am

Thanks for the breakdown and extra info man. I had looked at dixiedrifters thread on winding the coil, but found it to have too many jigs for me to make or aquire. Nonetheless, a great tutorial on making the hardest, IMO, part of the build. Your pdf was just what I needed, no workshop, tools and diameters of pipe I already had, (for the outside diameter mandril I used the long nozzle on my wife's vacuum cleaner...shhh) :wink: . I actually enjoyed making the coil, found it to be very theraputic. There really is no rush in making it, I had a break for lunch halfway through the winding process, but only learned to take my time after my first failure. I did'nt need a propane/mapp torch either, I just used respect for the anealed copper.

Thanks Hook, without your and dixies tutorials I think I would have had many failures. I'll try this coil inside the column first. If the backpressure is too much, I'll make another at the standard 150mm.

Thanks again man, your drinks waiting for you... :D

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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby LWTCS » Wed May 19, 2010 2:49 am

OD (and Rednose too) are helping me think through the second phase of the thump tower build.

A jacketed worm would finish it up as a very complimentary look. I think 1/2 may get the job done. But 3/4 would be preferable.

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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby HookLine » Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:57 am

Samohon wrote:Thanks for the breakdown and extra info man. I had looked at dixiedrifters thread on winding the coil, but found it to have too many jigs for me to make or aquire. Nonetheless, a great tutorial on making the hardest, IMO, part of the build.

I agree. Trickiest part.

I think a jig could be built using a split outer mandrel, so it can be removed without having to bend the inner tail. Would make manufacture a lot easier, and taking the tails out the side (opposite sides) would be preferable, I think.


Your pdf was just what I needed, no workshop, tools and diameters of pipe I already had, (for the outside diameter mandril I used the long nozzle on my wife's vacuum cleaner...shhh) :wink: .

My vacuum cleaner nozzle tube was my first 32 mm mandrel. Except I ain't got a wife to answer to. :mrgreen:

I actually enjoyed making the coil, found it to be very theraputic. There really is no rush in making it, I had a break for lunch halfway through the winding process, but only learned to take my time after my first failure. I did'nt need a propane/mapp torch either, I just used respect for the anealed copper.

I enjoy making them, it gets kinda Zen like. They can be made without extra annealing if you don't work harden the tube before winding. But I find it much easier to use annealing.

Thanks Hook, without your and dixies tutorials I think I would have had many failures. I'll try this coil inside the column first. If the backpressure is too much, I'll make another at the standard 150mm.

Back pressure is also higher in smaller diameter tube, so that long 3/16 coil will have a fair bit. Probably be okay, just won't have as much spare capacity as a shorter version (somewhat paradoxically, due to lower maximum coolant flow rates).

Thanks again man, your drinks waiting for you... :D

In the UK. Half a world away. :roll: :lol: If I make the effort to get all the way there, I think I would be entitled to a free drink or two. :wink: 8)
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby HookLine » Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:31 pm

One tip I forgot in my coil winding tutorial is: Ream out the end of the final cuts on the tails. Cutting a tube, especially with tube cutters, often leaves a lip on the inside of the tube, which restricts coolant flow in a small tube.
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby HookLine » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:26 pm

Yeah them kinks near the end are a real bitch. Just when you think you have got it done... al that wasted copper. :evil:

Congrats on sticking it out and your success. Third time lucky, huh? 8)
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby arthurz » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:24 am

Hi all

I had a go first time at winding with 1/4 inch (maybe it was 3/8) and stuffed it up. The bigger coil does not fit in my 2in column.
The smaller one fits nicely but its way to flat.

Is it possible to unwind these things?
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Re: Winding a Coil Condenser

Postby HookLine » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:11 am

arthurz wrote:Hi all

I had a go first time at winding with 1/4 inch (maybe it was 3/8) and stuffed it up. The bigger coil does not fit in my 2in column.
The smaller one fits nicely but its way to flat.

Is it possible to unwind these things?

Yes, with a lot of annealing, but you don't get nice round tube back. Forget it. Start with new tube is much better.

Pretty sure that is 1/4" tube. I had great trouble winding a double coil for a 2" column out of 3/8" tube. Only managed to make one good one out of several attempts.

Tubing does flatten a fair bit when winding it that tight. This is the normal flattening I get on my winds (on the inner coil):

download/file.php?id=5023

If your coil can handle at least a litre a minute of coolant, using either tap water or a pump, then it should work okay.

It is possible to tighten up a slightly oversize coil. I've done it several times. Just find the right size mandrel, slip it in, and tighten away. This technique has its limits, of course. Watch out for kinking at the end where it crosses over to the inner coil.

Don't worry about stuffing up your first one or two. It is not an easy job if you have never done it before. Hardest part of making a still, except maybe stainless welding.
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