Ice vs Cold Water

[Grain Brain]

Absolutely new to distilling. I have searched but haven't really seen anything to speak of about this. I bought a 20 gallon pot still with a thumper and condenser. The condenser has a hose inlet and outlet. My question is this ... the design is obviously for a hose to run water. Something about 56 degrees when it comes out. Can I use ice in the condenser so I dont run a ton of water on the ground? I have city water and pay for what I use lol. I understand I will have to replenish the ice as it runs but I feel like there won't be as much waste. Opinions?

[Jr-dist]

Normal procedure is to hook a small submersible pump from a reservoir that holds ice water to your inlet, with a hose. Then run a seperate hose from your outlet to the reservoir so you recycle the water, restock ice as needed.

[6 Row Joe]

You could try it. Many use a small electric pump to circulate the condenser water from a tub or a large cooler. We were just having a discussion about condenser water temp on another thread. It needs to be cooler than the vapor but how much cooler we haven't got to yet. I am ordering a flow meter so I can do some testing to see how much water is used per gallon of still charge. I trickle from your faucet may be less water than a 30 gallon barrel full. I won't know until I test. That water can be saved and reused next run though.

[8Ball]

It costs me less than $5 for a thousand gallons of city water, I let my small rig drain out on the lawn.

[cayars]

It costs me less than $5 for a thousand gallons of city water, I let my small rig drain out on the lawn.

Or collect the hot water in a 5 gallon plastic carboy and dump it in the washing machine and do a load of whites. Use the water to wash dishes by hand, etc. Both assuming you have the washing machine and sink near your still to keep an eye on it.

Here's a good one for distillers. You can use the clean hot water coming from the condenser to melt your sugar and/or molasses for another ferment you make! Slow the water flow so it comes out HOT. You only need as much water flow to compress the vapor. The slower the rate the hotter the exit water will be.

[Grain Brain]

Thank you all for the input. I'm going to explore the submersible pump option.

[Bushman]

I currently run a CM but with my VM I used a pond pump that recirculated the water. I bought the pump at Fred Meyer but you need to make sure it is strong enough for the job. I looked for one that was rated for 12 foot vertical lift. I filled a large garbage can with water. I also had 3 gallon jugs filled with water that I kept frozen. I used the gallon jugs one at a time in the reservoir as the water started to warm up just to get it to last a little longer. With my VM still and it’s 2” column most of my runs were 12 + hours thus during the run I still had to drain part of the water out during the run and add more cooling water to finish. I siphoned the water that had warmed up and used it to water the garden. Hope this helps.

[BrewNewbie]

Ok guys I notice a huge difference in the “bite” in the back of my throat from a shot when I use a recirculating pump with water from the hose vs using bags of ice in my condenser (ice has much less bite). My grand dad always used a constant feed from the well and the outlet out on the lawn to irrigate it. I can’t do that it would cost a small fortune in sewer charges. What is the reason the much colder water yields so much less bite?

[cayars]

Fresh off the still, or after a day of rest?
Was this toward the start of the run or mid way through?
What type of still and what type of condenser?

[shadylane]

Or collect the hot water in a 5 gallon plastic carboy and dump it in the washing machine and do a load of whites. Use the water to wash dishes by hand, etc. Both assuming you have the washing machine and sink near your still to keep an eye on it.

One of the members here was dropping their pump in the washing machine.

Here's a good one for distillers. You can use the clean hot water coming from the condenser to melt your sugar and/or molasses for another ferment you make! Slow the water flow so it comes out HOT. You only need as much water flow to compress the vapor. The slower the rate the hotter the exit water will be.

My dephleg waste waster is around 150'f.
Works good for mashing water

[cayars]

Yea, I think I know who you are talking about shadylane, username starts with "c" correct?

Yea, a bit of outside the box thinking like using the water for mashing not only saves water but fuel costs to heat it as well. Tons of uses to recycle the water if you think about it. Even better when you can use it warm/hot!

I recirculate my water. What I started doing before Christmas is hook a wort chiller inline and drop it in a 10 gallon cooler holding part of my next batch to run. This helps to cool my cooling water and start to heat the next batch. Double win as I keep my cooling water temp lower, longer plus save on energy costs to heat the next batch in the boiler. This is one of the best changes I've made recently to my setup. I may add another 25' to the wort chiller.

[BrewNewbie]

@cayars fresh off the still within the first hour. Throughout the run and Alembic with a small copper condenser. I do my initial run in my 8 galllon steel pot and then my finishing run in the Alembic because it’s capable of a smaller run with more control and better overall flavor profile.

[cayars]

Let it rest a day uncovered. Mix a sample down to 40% and try it then at room temp.

[8Ball]

It costs me less than $5 for a thousand gallons of city water, I let my small rig drain out on the lawn.

Or collect the hot water in a 5 gallon plastic carboy and dump it in the washing machine and do a load of whites. Use the water to wash dishes by hand, etc. Both assuming you have the washing machine and sink near your still to keep an eye on it.

Here's a good one for distillers. You can use the clean hot water coming from the condenser to melt your sugar and/or molasses for another ferment you make! Slow the water flow so it comes out HOT. You only need as much water flow to compress the vapor. The slower the rate the hotter the exit water will be.

Or I just sit there and let it run out on the lawn.

[Swbrewers]

I have two 300 gallon containers. I fill one with water, and a pump and it goes to the condenser. The warm water flows into the empty container. Since I'm recycling, I run the water through the condenser a little faster, about 2.5 gallons a minute. I can usually get a 10 gallon run finished without having to move the pump into the other tote. Never have to waste a drop of water.

[BrewNewbie]

I have two 300 gallon containers. I fill one with water, and a pump and it goes to the condenser. The warm water flows into the empty container. Since I'm recycling, I run the water through the condenser a little faster, about 2.5 gallons a minute. I can usually get a 10 gallon run finished without having to move the pump into the other tote. Never have to waste a drop of water.

I'm not sure I'd need 300 gallons but the full and empty container idea is interesting especially if I can start the cold tank off in a colder state.

[stillanoob]

How much difference does output temperature make? As long as it is well below say 100 deg/F and you have no vapor coming out of the condenser? If it does make a difference, what is the mechanism/reaction that causes it?

With my two runs (I have a LOT of experience) I found that if I added a few gallons to my flake stand (15 gallon keg with the worm in it) I kept the output temp cool to the touch during a 10 gallon wash run.

[BrewNewbie]

How much difference does output temperature make? As long as it is well below say 100 deg/F and you have no vapor coming out of the condenser? If it does make a difference, what is the mechanism/reaction that causes it?

With my two runs (I have a LOT of experience) I found that if I added a few gallons to my flake stand (15 gallon keg with the worm in it) I kept the output temp cool to the touch during a 10 gallon wash run.

In my recent experience it makes zero difference in the amount or proof of the output but a huge difference in the flavor and bite of the output.

[Twisted Brick]

Grain Brain,

There is a well-known Scottish distillery that pre-heats it’s giant flake stand/worm coolant water to induce an intended flavor profile. I would guess that the ‘bite’ that you perceive is the result of something else, maybe yeast, maybe ferment temps, (quite likely from cuts), but not the absence of ice cold coolant.

I recirculate a 30gal barrel of ambient temp water through a copper shotgun and find it quite economical over the course of say, a dozen runs or so before replacing. At the end of a 3hr spirit run in the heat of summer my coolant water can reach 130F, but there is no loss of condenser performance in knocking down vapor.

[cayars]

Yea, they do this because they don't want to condense the vapor at the start of the tube but slowly the whole way through the condenser which they say changes the profile of the spirit. More "meaty" flavors with the warmer water that they say ages into a more complex tasting product.

What I wondered about as well is the temperature of the spirit being tasted as well as ABV. Without ice you could easily be producing spirit that is 120F+ degrees and while using ice 60F or so. That's quite a difference and the colder spirit will have less bite. Same reason people put alcohol in the fridge or freezer. The other extreme is spirit way hotter than room temp which will have much more apparent flavor/bite while warm/hot.

Dilute both samples to 35-40%. Let both rest a day and sample at room temp to compare apples to apples.

There very well could be a difference but you want to eliminate ABV and temp differences in your samples and likely give it a day rest.

[BrewNewbie]

Yea, they do this because they don't want to condense the vapor at the start of the tube but slowly the whole way through the condenser which they say changes the profile of the spirit. More "meaty" flavors with the warmer water that they say ages into a more complex tasting product.

What I wondered about as well is the temperature of the spirit being tasted as well as ABV. Without ice you could easily be producing spirit that is 120F+ degrees and while using ice 60F or so. That's quite a difference and the colder spirit will have less bite. Same reason people put alcohol in the fridge or freezer. The other extreme is spirit way hotter than room temp which will have much more apparent flavor/bite while warm/hot.

Dilute both samples to 35-40%. Let both rest a day and sample at room temp to compare apples to apples.

There very well could be a difference but you want to eliminate ABV and temp differences in your samples and likely give it a day rest.

thank you ill give this a shot. BTW.... What when you say rest I'm assuming that is with the lid off?

[cayars]

In this case for fresh off the still spirit yes. Many people leave the spirit exposed to the air for the first day or two as it helps to let out the most volatile alcohols and start the oxidation process. But generally when people talk about letting spirit rest it's sealed.

"Flavors are forming, chemical chains are bonding, then breaking apart, making new complex forumations and oxygen is breathing maturity into your booze. Ethanol molecules grab onto and break off of one another, creating long chain fatty acids that create mouthfeel, concentration of flavor and complexity. This all happens as the spirit sits in a neutral container post distillation." A short but good read https://issuu.com/artisanspiritmag/docs ... 008_web/31

[BrewNewbie]

In this case for fresh off the still spirit yes. Many people leave the spirit exposed to the air for the first day or two as it helps to let out the most volatile alcohols and start the oxidation process. But generally when people talk about letting spirit rest it's sealed.

"Flavors are forming, chemical chains are bonding, then breaking apart, making new complex forumations and oxygen is breathing maturity into your booze. Ethanol molecules grab onto and break off of one another, creating long chain fatty acids that create mouthfeel, concentration of flavor and complexity. This all happens as the spirit sits in a neutral container post distillation." A short but good read https://issuu.com/artisanspiritmag/docs ... 008_web/31

Excellent read and not anything I have ever given any thought to. I have two identical bottles and Ill take one out and let it breathe while keeping the other sealed and see what the differences turn out to be.

[Twisted Brick]

If you fill your bottles to ~66% with spirit, the oxygen inside will work its magic nicely. Periodically (once a week?) remove the caps long enough for the 'volatiles' to escape and recap. This will provide a marked improvement over a filled bottle that gets opened periodically.

[Twisted Brick]

Yea, they do this because they don't want to condense the vapor at the start of the tube but slowly the whole way through the condenser which they say changes the profile of the spirit. More "meaty" flavors with the warmer water that they say ages into a more complex tasting product.

Hmmmm. Makes a case for lengthening the lyne arm between still head and shotgun, yes?

[cayars]

Yep, It's not unusual to see the lyne arm length as long or longer then the height of the still itself.


Look how long they are at the Midleton Distillery. Lots of copper contact and a chance for the vapor to start to cool on it's own before getting to the condenser. I'm working on something similar for one of my setups where the still is on one side of the room and the condenser on the other side of the room.

How about the coil lyne arms as used by Balcones.

[vagabondmountainman]

Fascinating conversation. I never would have thought the water temperature or rate of condensation through the condenser would have made a difference. I would have thought the chemical composition of the vapor would be unchanged once it was already in the condenser, but I guess it makes sense the rate of changing from gas to liquid and the temperature it occurs at would factor in. I learn more from these forums every day. Great tip about only filling the aging jars to 66% instead of to the top too.

Have any of you gentlemen come up with an ideal temperature for cooling water to produce the smoothest/best flavor on a spirit run for bourbon or scotch? Or does the speed at which you run the cooling water through the condenser--allowing the water to warm up more during the process have a greater effect? I usually recirculate around 20 gallons of 50-60 degree water at a speed of a few gallons a minute.
Next run I will recirculate both fast and slow from 2 different vessels, one with cold water and one with hot water in the middle of the hearts run and take samples to compare for flavor after airing a couple days.

I'm also going to play with adding in a longer section of copper pipe to the lyne arm for the same purpose and take samples with and without it to see if it makes a difference. How long do you think the lyne arm would need to be lengthened for a big flavor improvement? 2 feet, 4 feet? or much more?

Edit--Doing more online research I found this article which seems indicate that at least for scotch, some distilleries recommend that if you want a heavier, fuller flavored whiskey condense as fast as possible with cold water and if you want a lighter fruitier spirit condense slowly over more distance with warmer water. So I guess emulating your favorite distillery (for me Laphroig and Talisker as far as scotch goes) might make sense. Have any of you read this article? I'm wondering if the speed of condensing might also have an effect on peat flavors carrying over?

https://scotchwhisky.com/magazine/ask-t ... t-flavour/

[Roki]

https://issuu.com/artisanspiritmag/docs ... 008_web/31

1) Does anybody happen to know if these steel vessels used for resting spirits are left open at the top? Looked up online and couldn't find an answer. (Y/N)

2) If left the vessel open at the top I would assume it's because you want the volatiles to escape and make more room for oxygen to enter the vessel? (Y/N)

3) This might be the silliest question in the forum for a while; if the vessel/container is closed, would the oxygen inside be consumed as the spirit "interacts" with it? Or is it more of a reversible interaction kind of thing? The reasoning for this one is that maybe a vessel would need to be left open for a few days until the most volatile vapors find their way out and then its OK to close, that's in case oxygen is NOT consumed.

[The Baker]

Look up badmo 'barrels'.

Geoff

[Roki]

Look up badmo 'barrels'.

Geoff

That's a great read, thanks for the heads up on that, I've spent the last 3 hours delving on that topic.

But do they apply to this question in particular? Aren't the vessels used for aging wine and brandy made of pure steel stainless steel?