Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

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nzl.james
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Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by nzl.james » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:23 pm

Hi,

Im about to shift to australia to live in urban melbourne (Camberwell area) and im going to have to build a new still as i cant take mine with me. Im aware of most of the pro's and con's of gas, electricity, steam and glycol, but im looking to design an efficient still and wanting to know the cheapest energy sources in australia, (or melbourne area). from what i understand LPG is cheap but ive heard electricity is cheap too, what about street supply gas?

looking for any specific price per quantity or cost of run comparisons so i can design my energy source.

thanks in advance,
James

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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by retlaw » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:31 pm

with all that sun in auz and if you want cheap paint the pot black and hit it with a big ass magnifying glass, :econfused:

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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by maheel » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:54 pm

not sure on Melbourne but in Brisbane power is +-23 cents per KWH and electricity IMO is the cheaper way to power a still.
it might be a bit harder to set up at the start using electricity but it's easier in the long run i reckon.

i cant provide costs on LPG as it's dependent on the cost and use.

Nat Gas (street gas) may also be an option in MLB and reasonably cheap to use if you have access to it.

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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by thecroweater » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:36 am

G'day James I'm about 100 kms from camberwell . I'd say if ya can find a burner that will burn hot enough on natural gas this would be the go , been thinking of this myself but I know squat about NG burners . I'm using swap and go bottles as all these pricks here have the gas bottle thing stiched up , total rip off $18 of gas for $38. but I have just found out about a servo 15 or so min away that still fills bottles . I love the control that ya have with gas myself so if ya go the natural gas way let us know how would miles cheaper than even getting them filled (was even thinking of making ultarations to my car :shh: but thought might be risky) Ya want a pretty f#*ken good magnifying glass for the frozen hell hole of Melbourne (for 6 months anyway)
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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by whiskeytripping » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:28 pm

+1 on the electricity. I will recommend this for safety reasons alone (this is the internal mk5500 phase angle I'm referring to) not the burner plate designs
You would have to really sit down and put a pencil to it but electrical all the way for me, no propane bottles to fill or go out in the middle of the run, lugging around propane bottles

Now propane will heat up quicker but will scorch your wash easy, these are all things to consider in to your overall cost question. Propane can be done in the middle of nowhere, which can be handy. For these reasons alone I think it overweighs the cost of propane being slightly cheaper (if it is)

And did I mention safer way of running :D
Just my 2 cents worth

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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by nzl.james » Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:47 pm

thanks for the replies all.
Im currently using electricity just because it was convenient for me, but when i redesign my still in Melbourne im planning to scale up to approx 400l boiler, and therefore energy costs will start to become significant, and electricity may not handle my requirements from household sockets. thecroweater, I also know bugger all about gas but i think im going to research natural gas or lpg. I have seen alot recently on glycol as a heating medium and im considering finding a steam kettle or steam jacket boiler and using glycol instead of steam. this should address any scorching concerns associated with gas.

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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by thecroweater » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:09 pm

yes well as i said LPG isn't so cheap except for car fuel but they don't let ya fill bottles there claiming its a different gas , crap of cause and no one believes that either but what can ya do . anyway I'll be keeping an eye out for this thread as I need to find a cheaper way and also wish to expand my boiler size . If I dream up an idea that looks like it has legs I'll chime in
Cheers Crow
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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by maheel » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:32 pm

nzl.james wrote:thanks for the replies all.
but when i redesign my still in Melbourne im planning to scale up to approx 400l boiler,
400L is going to take some heating and to make it economical your going to need to think about your boiler design and heat retention

also sounds like your hitting commercial sizes... stay safe...

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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by emptyglass » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:09 pm

Hi James.
In Camberwell you will have the option of natural gas, but plumbing the supply might require the services of a gas plumber.
If your house has 3 phase electricity connected, you will have more than enough juice to do the job, but the cost can get quite high. Some houses have 3 phase 415 volt connected for central heating or pool heating. You could get it connected but you will be lookin at 5 figures to have that done.
Bottled gas will give you the heat you want, added portability if you want to move the rig around the property (natural gas and 3 phase will limit you) and it will give you discresion.

I reckon the discresion bottled gas will give you will be a good thing with such a size boiler. It might not be the cheapest to run, but the cost would be outweighed by benifits.
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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by nzl.james » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:48 pm

yes well
maheel wrote:
nzl.james wrote:thanks for the replies all.
but when i redesign my still in Melbourne im planning to scale up to approx 400l boiler,
400L is going to take some heating and to make it economical your going to need to think about your boiler design and heat retention

also sounds like your hitting commercial sizes... stay safe...
yes well in NZ i was getting to the point where i was running my still constantly and couldnt really keep up with demand, and i do plan to look into licenses etc but in the mean time i want a larger still to get comsistency and make life easier.
yes well as i said LPG isn't so cheap except for car fuel but they don't let ya fill bottles there claiming its a different gas , crap of cause and no one believes that either but what can ya do
helpful information, cheers. ive also heard gas grades MAY be SLIGHTLY different but insugnificant for us, in fact i think vehicle grade is meant to be higher, not too sure though. Anyway, if theres a will theres a way, and im sure there is a way to decant or transfer, a quick web search revealed people making 'adapters' fitted discreetly inside their vehicle, so it looks like they are filling their car but its filling an lpg bottle. anyways, lots to learn

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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by thecroweater » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:19 pm

yes was thinking how to do that even thought about putting a 2 way valve in the gas intake line in my car and have a screw on gas bottle line in the boot but though nar better not :ebiggrin:
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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by maheel » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:59 pm

i think the big issue is 9kg bbq bottles need to vent when filling them up and then you have gas venting near the pumps etc...

imagine some fool panics while filling there own tank and BOOOOOMMMMMM !!

do LPG car tanks have a tricky way of filling without the need to vent ? never owned one but often think i might get one as the gas is cheaper..

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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by thecroweater » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:08 pm

Dont know but I can always smell gas when i'm filling them , used lpg as fuel for many yrs got a duel fuel V8 running that on petrol would bust me and the old Landcruizer would be not much better :ebiggrin:
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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by emptyglass » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:44 am

maheel wrote:i think the big issue is 9kg bbq bottles need to vent when filling them up and then you have gas venting near the pumps etc...

imagine some fool panics while filling there own tank and BOOOOOMMMMMM !!

do LPG car tanks have a tricky way of filling without the need to vent ? never owned one but often think i might get one as the gas is cheaper..
You only need to vent them when filling by de-canting.

Car tanks are filled, or filling stops, when a pre-determined pressure is reached by the AFL in the tank(automatic fill limiter). Its pumped in.

If you empty a 9kg bottle to the point where your thumb over the outlet is enough to stop the flow out of the bottle, its is empty of gas, but has not lost ALL the pressure. If you can stop it with your thumb, its below 10 psi. That means its effecivley empty.

You can now pump gas into it from a bowser to the pre-determined pressure. Some bottles have the saftey blow off pressure lower than what a bowser can pump to. Caution.

A 9kg bottle has a W.C. (water capacity)(always stamped on the bottle collar) of a bit over 21kg. One liter of water = one kilogram. Therefore the volume of the cylinder is a bit over 21 litres.
L.P.P. and L.P.B. needs a 20% expansion factor.
If you were to pump 16-17 litres from a bowser into it, you would be safe. Not that I'm advocating that you make a hose and fill them yourselfs, as the sticker on the bowser says, you should not fill home appliance bottles from this bowser. And I'm not saying you should pick the petrol station and times that suit either.

Say, 17 litres at $0.65/litre, well you can do the math. But it can cost as little as $11 to fill one of those, in theory. Cost $28-ish for a "swap and go"

L.P.P. is liquid petrolium propane
L.P.B. is liquid petrolium butane
One is home use, as it stinks so you can smell a leak, the other is automotive, it dosnt stink as much, but you can still smell it. Similar heat energy.
Jetting for appliances would, theoreticly, have to be changed, but they work acceptably, or so I'm tole.

Then theres Natural gas, which is delivered at about 3 or 4 psi. Want to run a car on it, and it has to be compressed (CNG, or compressed natural gas). Thats why natural gas stuff has huge jets. Bus companys play with CNG, or at least they used to.

Edit; spelling, or lack of it.
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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by thecroweater » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:59 am

In theory :moresarcasm: yeah right , kinda like I got this good friend with a prob story , anyway $38 is what the thieving bastards charge , should be charged with collusion and profiteering $11 dollars hey hmmm thinking
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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by Oxbo Rene » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:01 pm

Just invent something, create a business, market it = make millions = problem solved :) :) :)
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that, and only that, is what is significant...........
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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by emptyglass » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:03 pm

thecroweater wrote:In theory :moresarcasm: yeah right , kinda like I got this good friend with a prob story , anyway $38 is what the thieving bastards charge , should be charged with collusion and profiteering $11 dollars hey hmmm thinking
Would you belive the "a bloke I know..." story?
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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by MR-E » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:33 am

My local Bunnings has swap & go for$20 (Logan area Brisbane)

Cheers :thumbup:

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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by thecroweater » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:27 am

MR-E wrote:My local Bunnings has swap & go for$20 (Logan area Brisbane)

Cheers :thumbup:
What ! 8.5s Man I've had these pricks here like I said collusion where the hell is the ACCC when there needed yeah see I thought it was only about $17 dollars back home (SA) when the girl said 38 bucks I was like :wtf: then I looked around and saw every joint was $38 . bet all these muppets got together and decided lets not under cut each other and we can double the price . ya know what ud be funny getting bunnings at logan to fax me a quote take it to bunnings ballarat and they'd have to beat it by 10% as per their policee :lol: :moresarcasm:
Last edited by thecroweater on Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by MR-E » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:54 pm

thecroweater wrote:
MR-E wrote:My local Bunnings has swap & go for$20 (Logan area Brisbane)

Cheers :thumbup:
What ! 8.5s Man I've had these pricks here like I said collusion where the hell is the APCCC when there needed yeah see I thought it was only about $17 dollars back home (SA) when the girl said 38 bucks I was like :wtf: then I looked around and saw every joint was $38 . bet all these muppets got together and decided lets not under cut each other and we can double the price . ya know what ud be funny getting bunnings at logan to fax me a quote take it to bunnings ballarat and they'd have to beat it by 10% as per their policee :lol: :moresarcasm:
Yeah standard size gas bottle, get the fuckers to ring the Browns Plains Store, they will spin ya some shit about freight costs
& other bullshit excuses.
All Bunnings should have to sell at the same price, after you do that Browns Plains will probably jack there price up.

Cheers :thumbup:

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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by thecroweater » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:49 am

All good got on the dog and bone had a sook about gas prices and would they like to try to beat there own store by 10% . Price is $21.50 pays to ask :ebiggrin:
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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by MR-E » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:42 am

thecroweater wrote:All good got on the dog and bone had a sook about gas prices and would they like to try to beat there own store by 10% . Price is $21.50 pays to ask :ebiggrin:
Glad it worked out for you, I couldn't stomach paying $38 for gas. :thumbup:

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Re: Energy costs in Australia? LPG vs Electricity etc...

Post by newts » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:21 pm

Re refilling gas bottle cost try Rays outdoor or Bcf they are both abou 2/3 rds that cost .Bottles must be in date .I use a camping & fishing store near me .These are refill your own bottle only outlets.
Allan

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