History from the other side

[thecroweater]

Yeah a little over simplified, this area after reformation was heavily protestant so church lands ceased to be a factor. My family left there before confederation, before Bismark and before the Prussian king became the German emperor (Kaiser). Paternally they mostly came from Posen and maternally from Silliesia around Leignitz, Breslau and along the Oder. Many thousands immigrated from those districts between the 1830s to the 1850s, many of those families had descended from or married into Germanic family's that settled those districts in the 1500s. Being that these ppl were left before the unification they identified as being Sileisian or Prussian from my understanding, no doubt two wars have helped solidify that distinction

[thecroweater]

Who to blame for war can be a tricky question, who to blame from a nation's crimes. It is the the head makes a snake dangerous not the body steared by the head. Ethnicity is not the driving force, for example the names of three of my Great uncles that fought the Germans and Italians in North Africa and then the Japanese in the Islands were Johannes H,Felix C and Franz Erhardt. Mightn't sound as Aussie as Mick Dundee but proud Aussie heros they were

[HDNB]

Btw..there was no such thing as horns on their helmets..

you have absolutely ruined my concept of this history.

[der wo]

Btw..there was no such thing as horns on their helmets..

you have absolutely ruined my concept of this history.

Yes. And as always a German is to blame for that. Richard Wagner and his operas. Here a picture of the first performance of The Ring of the Nibelung, 1876:

[cuginosgrizzo]

Richard Wagner and his operas.

love them!!!

[Danespirit]

Btw..there was no such thing as horns on their helmets..

you have absolutely ruined my concept of this history.

Awww...sorry friend..

[stillvodka]

Not wanting to get into politics but I believe my first eye opener was traveling. My first trip to Europe I tried to keep up on the world news and how differently other parts of the world see things as opposed to the US side we get. That is one reason I very seldom watch Fox News or MSNBC as both news stations are slanted heavily toward their party affiliations.

So Pfshine are you telling me Columbus didn't discover America first????

vikings settled newfoundland hundreds of years before columbus tried to sail off the edge.

That's right ...HDNB...
Erik den røde (Erik the red..because of his red beard)
He and his folks were there almost 500 years before Colombus was ever heard about.
Their incredible skills to fabricate streamlined ships (langbåde) and their knowledge of navigation, enabled them to such a journey.
They were feared for their combat skills and strength. They would rather die in combat than surrender to the enemy (it was an honor to die in battle and enter "Valhalla" the place of their goods).
They had superior blacksmithing skills and made all kind of weapons. Notable are their swords..the social status of a viking, could be seen by the way his sword was decorated.
A high ranked viking warrior had one of the best swords "Ulfberth".
Btw..there was no such thing as horns on their helmets..
Besides sailing around killing and plundering nations, they also found time to be merchants...wich explains weird archeological findings of items that shouldn't be there.
1260 a king of the vikings, united their possesions in the north atlantic, but he didn't care for north America anymore.
Greenland is still part of Denmark today, even if they technically have some kind of independence and use their own flag.
The USA was granted a base on Greenland ...(Thule airbase) as a result of our membership in NATO.

Not to derail this topic...just a little history..

Yes Hitler was by no means a boy scout, but Stalin killed a lot more people than Hitler.
I also wonder if Mao Zedong did top both on that cruel statistic..?
BTW...one should bear in mind that WW2 wasn't all Hitlers idea.
Several very generous proposals were made in order to solve the little problem with a way to Danzig (wich was declared as a free town after WW1) and the passage to Memelland (wich was cut off from the Deutsches Reich).
Churchill would rather see Germany crushed once and for all, so it was in his interest the negotiations between Germany and Poland would fail.
Yes..Hitler was the aggressor that did "first blood", by invading Poland..but that only happened after long time negotiations in wich England and Sweden acted as the third part.
I am by no means defending Hitler, but a wise man once said: "It is irrelevant who shoot the first shot...what counts is how it could get to that far."
If WW2 was any good at all...it may have been an eye opener for mankind, to never again let something that terrible happen.
No one will win a war...there are just two losing parts and one of them lost less...

recon this post is Spot-on!

but Also, don't forget another evil nutty bastard - that was ''bomber Harris'' no need to do what he done

[goinbroke2]

Bomber Harris? I won't defend him but what Croweater alluded to, it's the leader of the country who decides what to do and how.
In the media it was common to see headlines like "army goes into XX country" or "the airforce bombs XXX" but in reality, the military is just a tool among many that the government uses. If a country does something wrong to another, they might decide to;
1) stop officially trading with them
2) embargo and not allow any citizen to trade with them
3) Blockade so nobody can trade with them
4) support local resistance
5) openly threaten bombing or actually bomb them
6) naval barrage/attack fleets etc
7) "boots on the ground" actual invasion
There's a hundred more (letter to UN etc) but you get my point.

At no point does someone working for the government decide on their own to continue selling products to the country. just the same, no one working for the government (the military) decide on their own to attack or be provocative in any way, it's not their place.

In this instance, Churchill decided a new strategy, he employed the person in charge of bombing to carry out his new strategy. Others may have liked it or have hated it, that's a moot point as nobody but churchill decided what the strategy to follow would be. At any time, Churchill could of said "stop carpet bombing, I want to just hit factories" or anything else. At that point Harris would have had ZERO CHOICE but to switch to bombing factories or dockyards or icecream parlours or whatever else Churchill said, as he was in ultimate charge. Soldiers (or in this case airmen) follow orders, period.

A good leader is one who knows how to pick the best person for the job and then knows how to get out of the way and let them do it without micromanaging or interfering. He picked Harris and Harris did the job to the best of his ability.

[WooTeck]

knowledge of the past should be shared and burned into our memories so that atrocities of the past will not become our future.

its in human nature to do unspeakable things to each other. knowledge of the pasts not going to change that. genocide has been going on for unknowing amounts of time and is still happening to day. tortureing of the Innocent is nothing new. guantanamo bay is a recent notable event.

[quote+"historynewsnetwork - Were American Indians the Victims of Genocide?"]according to Ward Churchill, a professor of ethnic studies at the University of Colorado, the reduction of the North American Indian population from an estimated 12 million in 1500 to barely 237,000 in 1900 represents a"vast genocide . . . , the most sustained on record."[/quote]
had to use a little googlefoo. looks like the early setlers through to the us government had a fairly damaging genocide of their own.

[pfshine]

Most people and teachers themselves will tell you that the native Americans were an advanced peaceful people that used every part of the Buffalo. This is just not the case. They were warring tribal people. They did not even have a concept of the wheel. And when hunting some would herd thousands of Buffalo off a cliff just to consume a few. Tribes eradicated other tribes, some would capture woman slaves from other tribes and cut their toes off so they could not escape. With this said I am not saying one side is better than the other or that anything was justified. Not everything is as teacher says.

[Wooday]

Most people and teachers themselves will tell you that the native Americans were an advanced peaceful people that used every part of the Buffalo. This is just not the case. They were warring tribal people. They did not even have a concept of the wheel. And when hunting some would herd thousands of Buffalo off a cliff just to consume a few. Tribes eradicated other tribes, some would capture woman slaves from other tribes and cut their toes off so they could not escape. With this said I am not saying one side is better than the other or that anything was justified. Not everything is as teacher says.

Using "They" when referring to a thousand separate and distinct cultures is lumping too many peoples together. Yes, "they" were all on the same continent, but that was the only thing "they" had in common. Some were "warring tribal people", many others were agrarian, farming thousands of acres and raising domesticated turkeys.
Each of the thousand "they" had periods of war and peace. Some of "them" never saw a bison in their life. Some of "them" abducted women "slaves" whose children were born into freedom, and who themselves married into freedom.

Did you know that "Indo-europeans" murdered 6 million jews?
"Asians" make sushi and sake?

All sorts of contradictions arise when you paint with too broad a brush.

[stillvodka]

Bomber Harris? I won't defend him but what Croweater alluded to, it's the leader of the country who decides what to do and how.
In the media it was common to see headlines like "army goes into XX country" or "the airforce bombs XXX" but in reality, the military is just a tool among many that the government uses. If a country does something wrong to another, they might decide to;
1) stop officially trading with them
2) embargo and not allow any citizen to trade with them
3) Blockade so nobody can trade with them
4) support local resistance
5) openly threaten bombing or actually bomb them
6) naval barrage/attack fleets etc
7) "boots on the ground" actual invasion
There's a hundred more (letter to UN etc) but you get my point.

At no point does someone working for the government decide on their own to continue selling products to the country. just the same, no one working for the government (the military) decide on their own to attack or be provocative in any way, it's not their place.

In this instance, Churchill decided a new strategy, he employed the person in charge of bombing to carry out his new strategy. Others may have liked it or have hated it, that's a moot point as nobody but churchill decided what the strategy to follow would be. At any time, Churchill could of said "stop carpet bombing, I want to just hit factories" or anything else. At that point Harris would have had ZERO CHOICE but to switch to bombing factories or dockyards or icecream parlours or whatever else Churchill said, as he was in ultimate charge. Soldiers (or in this case airmen) follow orders, period.

A good leader is one who knows how to pick the best person for the job and then knows how to get out of the way and let them do it without micromanaging or interfering. He picked Harris and Harris did the job to the best of his ability.

Nuremberg defence / Bomber Harris

[pfshine]

True statements. I did say they twice which is true on both counts. I did not say"they" all hearded Buffalo off cliffs or "they" all took sex slaves and cut their toes off. I said some. If I were to use a single hair instead of a brush we would be here for days. Just putting it out there that the broad stroke native American that most of us were told about is just not true. "They" were put on a pedestal of all that is harmony with nature. You have good and bad where ever you go north and south America is no different. Trying to hide the bad of one and shout from the roof tops the bad of the other isn't honest. I apologize if you took it as I was saying all were terrible uncivilized brutes.

[pfshine]

The winter of 1609-1610 in Jamestown Virginia was so harsh that only 60 out of 500 settlers survived. They were so desperately hungry that they turned to cannibalism and eating excrement. Not only did they eat their own they also ate deceased natives that died from plague or other diseases the settlers brought. One journal entry states a man killed and devoured his own wife leaving just her head. This is one thing I was never taught, might be the extreme taboo of cannibalism tied to the upheld settlers.

[Wooday]

True statements. I did say they twice which is true on both counts. I did not say"they" all hearded Buffalo off cliffs or "they" all took sex slaves and cut their toes off. I said some. If I were to use a single hair instead of a brush we would be here for days. Just putting it out there that the broad stroke native American that most of us were told about is just not true. "They" were put on a pedestal of all that is harmony with nature. You have good and bad where ever you go north and south America is no different. Trying to hide the bad of one and shout from the roof tops the bad of the other isn't honest. I apologize if you took it as I was saying all were terrible uncivilized brutes.

My response had a little too much heat, and I apologize
I'm just trying to hammer home the danger of the pan-indian paradigm. Nothing gets me angrier than the whole "one with nature" mantra.
We must, must teach both the good and the bad together.

[pfshine]

When talking about things of this nature it is very easy to say something one way and it's taken in another. My first one was a bit dry and I should have worded what I was trying to say better. It did come off a bit..... awful, sorry for that. I see things a bit scewed from normal perception and like facts without the feelings. You can talk to two countries at war and listen to their stories. Both sides tell the truth but they would be completely different. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[Hank Reardon]

pfshine,

at first I read in your post "Stalin - millions and Hitler - hundred of thousands victims". After asking yourself "What part of history do you want to correct".

And then I read "Mao Zedong killed millions more than the Nazis ever did..." in the "If you could have a super power" -Thread.

So what part do you want to correct? It sounds, you want, that Russia and China had been accused more than the Nazis. And for that you are dealing with false numbers (Hitler - hundred of thousands). Why? I see only two possible reasons. Either, because you have sympathy for the Nazis, or because your hate against Russia and China is so big, that you even defend the Nazis against them.

Ok. Now I have seen, that you have edited the number of victims of Hitler. Now your post sounds different. And because of that, also your post about Mao doesn't sound the same for me.
So I accept it, because nothing of your posts is false anymore. But perhaps you understand my first reaction.

I tried to stay out of this thread... I walked away many days since it started.

No thanks to pfshine for harvesting the trot line. My jaw hurts, but the bait was too edible, albeit difficult to swallow.

In reality, this is why I do not like to be a member of a forum. I get a sense of what I should do, and cant seem to find a way around it.

Der Wo, I call into question the very logic of your post. I have read many that relate to distilling, and it is clear to me you are more knowledgable in that regard. However, your application of history seems to apply some form of flawed logic...

What difference does it make that statistics you have read are spuriously related to the topic? Are you going to say that Mao was a great guy, or Hitler was slightly less of a great guy based on body count? Somehow boiling down (sorry for the pun) who was more evil based on who killed more people seems like we are missing the forest through the trees. Is it possible, based on your premise, that a person who was found to be evil after only killing 1 million people is somehow less evil than someone who killed 1,000,001? Could it be they were caught and stopped prior to the next victim? Of course not, based on your logic. It is called relativism, and is one of countless flaws in the application of logic. Is it possible you were pointing out bias in pfshine's post based simply on whether the body count related to Hitler's atrocities was correct? Did you draw some conclusions, because your posts seemed to indicate so without overtly stating that we were amongst anti-semites.

I have edited this post 30+ times, and, oddly enough, it isn't to get my thoughts together. Rather, it is to not bore the balance of the readers of this thread with minutia. The idea behind your posts, and the subsequent "everyone blames Germany" posts are errant at best.

Der Wo, I am happy to debate with you the idea of western exceptionalism. That being said, I'm sad to point out to you the inconvenient fact that your preferred communication technology has been made available to you by the enemies of communism. Whether it be your keyboard, your phone that has a form of keyboard, your wireless connection, VPN connection,tablet, PC, laptop or other unnamed device you use to connect, or the service connection you leverage that is reliable; you can thank western civilization for all those tools.

The aforementioned facts acts are incontrovertible, and as such, are the basis for the rest of our conversation. We can take it to PM from here if you like. If pfshine and the mods are OK with it, we can keep the point-counterpoint going in this thread as long as the Der Wo would like.

Moderators: I apologize for being outspoken, your censure will be respected.

[Danespirit]

When talking about things of this nature it is very easy to say something one way and it's taken in another. My first one was a bit dry and I should have worded what I was trying to say better. It did come off a bit..... awful, sorry for that. I see things a bit scewed from normal perception and like facts without the feelings. You can talk to two countries at war and listen to their stories. Both sides tell the truth but they would be completely different. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

+1 Pfshine
History is always written by the winners.
When two cultures clash, the loser is obliterated, and the winner writes the history books-books which glorify their own cause and disparage the conquered foe.
To Quote Napoleon Bonaparte: "What is history, but a fable agreed upon?”
So yes, the truth is somewhere in the middle....
Just like in distilling, when one only keeps the middle part called hearts.
Now every individual just has to decide where the heck that "middle part" lies....(that's the challenge in history/politics as well as distilling).

[der wo]

Hank,
I did not understand every word of your post. Your English is too good for me. So I am not sure, if I answer good:

What difference does it make that statistics you have read are spuriously related to the topic? Are you going to say that Mao was a great guy, or Hitler was slightly less of a great guy based on body count? Somehow boiling down (sorry for the pun) who was more evil based on who killed more people seems like we are missing the forest through the trees. Is it possible, based on your premise, that a person who was found to be evil after only killing 1 million people is somehow less evil than someone who killed 1,000,001?

I agree. But it was Pfshine using body counts to relativate the crimes of the Nazis. He was using the numbers of Stalin and Mao and did not consider other factors. And -most important- he was using false numbers first. Without that, I would not have posted.

Rather, it is to not bore the balance of the readers of this thread with minutia. The idea behind your posts, and the subsequent "everyone blames Germany" posts are errant at best.

I have more the feeling, I blame Germany more than the other members. Did I say something moderate about the Nazis crimes? Or do I understand you wrong here?

That being said, I'm sad to point out to you the inconvenient fact that your preferred communication technology has been made available to you by the enemies of communism. Whether it be your keyboard, your phone that has a form of keyboard, your wireless connection, VPN connection,tablet, PC, laptop or other unnamed device you use to connect, or the service connection you leverage that is reliable; you can thank western civilization for all those tools.

Ah, now I understand you. Again someone with this idea of the unbeatable eternal power of capitalism. How witty in an US-American forum.
Common... That's stupid. So the Americans are not allowed to drive cars, because the German and English invented it. And we all are not allowed to write, because the Arabs invented your scripture. And without broadcasting, we would have no internet today, Italian or English invented it I think. Oh, and the USA would not be allowed to have Guantanamo, because Germany, Russia and China had such camps first.
But in a way you are right. But "There is no correct life in the wrong".

Btw, I don't follow any idea like communism or socialism. I have opinions about pros and cons, that's all.

And I definetely don't want to pm about such things.

[HDNB]

Is it possible, based on your premise, that a person who was found to be evil after only killing 1 million people is somehow less evil than someone who killed 1,000,001?

interesting post Hank. I think I just got to know you a bit.

This has been about the history of the world so far, how about thinking of this concept of "history" a little closer to home? When you think about your wife (well not your wife, just the concept of wife) is she a slut? did she have sex with one guy before you, or was the entire football team on a friday night to satisfy her that she considered fair game? was she chaste and pure as the driven snow when you found her? Does her "number" matter to you?

now then...what kind of viril stud would you be (had been) if you serviced the entire cheerleading squad every friday night? is your number 1 or 301? would you be a robust, he- man, an exemplary specimen and the envy of all your mates?

now write the history of your relationship... do you suffer from this same flawed logic?

The thought of your wife being as much of a horn dog as you is pretty unsettling for most. Point being, when you quit thinking of your SOH as female/wife- your property... and start treating her as human/person- her own sentient being...she's less likely to actually be doing jimmy next door, you're likely gonna get a bit more.
remember, she comes first!

it's this very thing that starts and ends wars.

[pfshine]

Good points Hank. I don't see one as more evil than another, I just wonder why one is more relevant than the other. Everybody knows the name of one but the name and actions of another who has done essentially the same thing is lost to the annals of forgotten history. Or how one man is greater than another, Thomas Edison is touted as a crazy great inventor who invented the lightbulb, while he was an inventor he did not invent the lightbulb. Humphrey Davy and Joseph Swan both had better working models before him. Lawsuits ensued and in the end Edison who declared to the world he invented the bulb a year before the problems were solved took the fame. While Edison does have thousands of patents in his name, he did not invent them all, in fact it would be impossible for him to have. He had teams of inventors working for him, he was known to steal ideas from competition. While he did help make my country and our world better, he is not as you have been told.

[HDNB]

Der, the student interns that visited from Duetche Telekom... they were the best and the brighest (thats how they "won" a free trip all paid to Canada for 3 months)
I had this converstation with the brighest of them...he told me that German society as a whole suffers a guilt from WWII.

I think this is misguided, you cannot possibly have done anything to change what went on then. unless you are in your late 80's you wern't there.
In Canada the general populace and certainly the governement have guilt over the mis-treatment of indigenous people over the history of the country. They throw my money at this problem like i was personally responsible for small pox, residential schools and then general mis-treatment of everyone who is not a WASP.
simple fact of the matter is i came into the world broke, bare-ass naked and crying...likely the same way i'll leave...just the same as everyone else.
how taking money from me, that i earned and giving it to somone who sits on their ass and moans "special interest" is going to better me, or society, is completely beyond me...but it sure gives the politicians a reason to wake up in the morning.

i feel no guilt about the history of the past...again, i enjoy the dreams of the future.

[pfshine]

Damnit der wo stop saying I was giving out false numbers. I made one numerical error which is still there and I added in the correct approximation. You keep acting like I was intentionally trying to deceive people. Your attitude towards me and inferments are really starting to piss me off. Go back and look, see what I did. I accidentally posted an ridiculously low number then added (edit millions, drunk posting) that's it I didn't change a damn thing. So I would appreciate if you quit with the liable remarks lest I do the same to you.

[der wo]

Damnit der wo stop saying I was giving out false numbers. I made one numerical error which is still there and I added in the correct approximation. You keep acting like I was intentionally trying to deceive people. Your attitude towards me and inferments are really starting to piss me off. Go back and look, see what I did. I accidentally posted an ridiculously low number then added (edit millions, drunk posting) that's it I didn't change a damn thing. So I would appreciate if you quit with the liable remarks lest I do the same to you.

And I wrote you:
"Ok. Now I have seen, that you have edited the number of victims of Hitler. Now your post sounds different. And because of that, also your post about Mao doesn't sound the same for me.
So I accept it, because nothing of your posts is false anymore. But perhaps you understand my first reaction."
But Hank claims, I am the one, who is counting bodies. That's my answer to him, not an attack against you.

[der wo]

he told me that German society as a whole suffers a guilt from WWII.

I think this is misguided, you cannot possibly have done anything to change what went on then. unless you are in your late 80's you wern't there.

That the today Germans are obsessed by the idea beeing guilty for everything, because of the ww2, is the nr.1 argument of the German right parties, which want to have a new right nationalism in Germany. Btw this argument is not new. Also Hitler wrote the same in his book, of course not argueing with the holocaust. But he claimed, the Germans are the only people, which would be able to supress the natural egoism because of feeling always guilty.

Of course I know, I am not guilty, what happend this time...
But it's always a difference, WHO says what:
If a German nationalist says, we are not guilty for the crimes, he says between the lines, Germany should have a more agressive foreign policy today and should be more restrictive against other cultures living in our nation. If a German left party politician says we are not guilty, he only says something, what is logically for everyone today.
It's not paranoid, it's very current now here: Every party in Germany says "The muslim immigrants have to follow our rules". But of course it's very different, what each party means...

I am not able to hear, what's between the lines here. So this is no attack against anyone here. Only writing, what's in my head.

[raketemensch]

Stalin killed millions yet Adolf Hitler gets acknowledged for killing hundreds if thousands(edit millions, drunk posting) . I'm not trying to take away from what transpired but history has forgotten the billions lost.

The Road of Bones is one of the most horrific things in modern history, but people don't know much about it.

[HDNB]

ok all the brutal history is a drag. how about some entertaining history?

didja know the hippie movement started in the '20's not the '60's? californicators played prominently, a brit is your culprit in this tale:

One of Canada's most notorious cult stories had a marriage-like arc—starting with visions of love and promises of mutual betterment and ending in acrimony over money and sex. Edward Arthur Wilson was a British-born mystic and sea captain who began having visions in 1924 and came to believe that an Egyptian spiritual master was guiding him.

Renaming himself Brother XII, Wilson decided he needed a colony—what he called the "Ark of Refuge"—to prepare people for the coming Age of Aquarius, but first he needed the cash to pay for it. Enter gullible Californians who ate up his lectures during a speaking tour and bankrolled both his Ark of Refuge (in Cedar, British Columbia) and the Aquarian Foundation backing it.

By 1927, the Foundation was raking in serious money. But tensions began to mount when it was discovered that Brother's actions in the "House of Mystery"—a building meant for spiritual contemplation—were not so mysterious if you were familiar with the sounds of frenzied lovemaking.

Other sex scandals followed, but the biggest complaints were over Brother's dictatorial handling of Foundation resources. Brother XII won court cases brought against him, but damning press saying his was a cult centred on free love and bilking investors (pretty accurate, it would seem) led to the Foundation being dissolved in November 1929. That didn't hit Brother's wallet, though, as he had converted much of the donated funds into gold coins, socking them away in jars.

His partnership with a bullwhip-wielding sadist named "Madame Z" resulted in conditions for colonists turning from creepy and unpleasant to backbreaking and unbearable. They eventually rebelled, drafting what has to be the saddest "declaration of independence" of them all. Brother XII and Madame Z fled with their gold in 1932, destination never confirmed.

[thecroweater]

Anyway moving away from Geo -politics and modern first nation issues Hemingway from sustained discriminatiory policies has anyone ever wondered why nearly all our inventors and innovators we wealthy we connected ppl often inventing things well out of their chosen field. The world of inventions and patents is where some of the biggest and most common lies in history are repeated. Just one of many hundreds of examples is the Wright brothers kittyhawk flight in December 1903 , the first truly powered flight was on the 31 of March 1903 by Richard Pearce of New Zealand who had made at least 4 witnessed flights before the Wright bros got off the ground
Edit : written while the above was posted

[cranky]

I've been trying to stay out of this conversation but it seems I just can't.

The premise behind this whole argument about Hitler and Stalin and why this and that was actually summed up pretty well by Eddie Izzard here.


I personally have seen lots of new revisionist history going on and scrubbing of the internet. Not long ago there was lots of documentation for the fact that Japan actually tested their first nuclear bomb on the day they surrendered. This drives home just how necessary the need for America to use that bomb when they did. Today thanks to revisionist history it is now claimed that it never happened but what the revisers haven't been able to change or deny yet is that they were indeed working on a nuclear bomb and were most certainly willing to use it when they got it. There is much out there we weren't taught and unfortunately because it is unpleasant to somebody it is still being changed.

Note: Posting same time as others and wish I hadn't posted at all.

[HDNB]

great minds think...ahh.. never mind.

great post croweater, had no idea that Kiwis could fly.