Making cane molasses vinegar

Little or nothing to do with distillation.

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der wo
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by der wo »

Yes. But you can also use any other cheap vinegar. You will not taste a difference I think.

I checked it out by neutralizing the acid of the cane vinegar with lime. And yes, it smelled a bit like molasses or raw cane sugar then. Perhaps like if you would stir a teaspoon molasses in a liter water. When your wash is made with many liters molasses, the one teaspoon more or less will not make a difference.
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by distiller_dresden »

You're referring/meaning adding the vinegar before I distill the wash, yes? Or am I adding it at some point during fermentation? (All in seeking esters, yes?)
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

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I would use it at the stripping runs. Not because here it works best, but because if it was not enough, you can still add a bit to the spirit run.

Before, during or after fermentation? I am unsure. On the one hand the fermentation will cause esters to evaporate, so you will loose many of them. On the other hand you loose more of the less interesting low boiling point esters than of the really interesting high boiling point ones. So at least in theory when using vinegar at the beginning, you will need more (but vinegar is cheap), but you will get a more interesting spirit.
In any case I would recommend to hold the pH high during fermentation, with lime, perhaps pH 5.6-6.0. This hinders the esters to evaporate. And then before stripping lower the pH, perhaps 3.0-3.5.
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

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A little update of my two vinegar washes:

The one with the added yeast and vinegar mother fermented as expected. After a while silence a new fermentation started. I have bubbles like soap bubbles on the surface. No pellicle. But something is producing a gas, probably CO²? The smell is good.

The one with the mold pellicle: I removend the pellicle after a month and added yeast and vinegar mother. The fermentation was slow and unhealthy. Strong cardboard and perhaps chlorine odors. The mold hinders the yeast and the yeast hinders the mold I think.

It is not easy to hold the pH in the range 5.5-6. To measure and correct once a week is not enough. Both experimental vinegar washes suck much more lime than I thought to keep the pH in range. The moldy wash sucked way more, up to now somethig like 7 tsp per liter. And lime solves not very fast. You cannot stir in lime and measure. You have to wait perhaps an hour or two.
Adding lime obviously reduces the smell: The higher the pH the less the smell. It seems to work to hinder the esters and acids to evaporate by pH rising.

I will do experiments like mixing my vinegars with alcohol and adding sulphuric acid in a week or so.
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by distiller_dresden »

Hey der wo, try using potassium bicarb? It raises PH (reduces acidity) within seconds and is relatively potent (I use about 1/4c to raise 5 gallons PH from 4.5 to 5). From what I can tell I have never noticed any flavor at all, either. Unless you don't mind the time it takes for lime to work?
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

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distiller_dresden wrote:Hey der wo, try using potassium bicarb? It raises PH (reduces acidity) within seconds and is relatively potent (I use about 1/4c to raise 5 gallons PH from 4.5 to 5).
Then it was a alcoholic wash, not a vinegar wash I think, right?
An alcoholic wash and a vinegar wash are very different. Of course the vinegar wash has much more acids. Doesn't need much to rise the pH in a wash without vinegar.
Potash is stronger than lime. And yes, it's way better soluble. I have it at home, it tastes salty. I will stay with lime. And if I would like to try out something stronger or better soluble I would use caustic soda probably.
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by distiller_dresden »

Yeah it was my normal mash washes I use it for, any of them. I've never tasted it plain, not eager to? But I taste my washes and never notice a change before or after using it. I figured since it raises PH/counters acid, it would be basic, and very very bitter.
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

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der wo wrote:
distiller_dresden wrote:Hey der wo, try using potassium bicarb? It raises PH (reduces acidity) within seconds and is relatively potent (I use about 1/4c to raise 5 gallons PH from 4.5 to 5).
Then it was a alcoholic wash, not a vinegar wash I think, right?
An alcoholic wash and a vinegar wash are very different. Of course the vinegar wash has much more acids. Doesn't need much to rise the pH in a wash without vinegar.
Potash is stronger than lime. And yes, it's way better soluble. I have it at home, it tastes salty. I will stay with lime. And if I would like to try out something stronger or better soluble I would use caustic soda probably.
CaO perhaps? If you can make enough of it for your immediate needs. It doesn't keep well in open air.

When I adjusted my banana vinegar molasses wash, to ready it for the pit, I was alarmed at how much Calcium Hydroxide it took. I was able to get the pH into the 5.5 range and the pit cultured my other bacterial starters very well, but the lime came back to haunt me. I missed a rapid raise in the pH of the pit and I halted it with acid, but the buffering effect was quite significant. It requires more acid than I'm willing to use to adjust it down.

You might not have that problem if the vinegar is a standalone component that you are introducing to other acids an alcohols, but for me, everything is locked up in my muck (if the maggots haven't eaten everything).
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

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I did flavor tests today with my two vinegars. I poured from each of them 20ml in a jar, added 20ml alcohol and 2ml sulphuric acid and closed it. After a few hours I opened them and was very surprised and a bit dissapointed, that I smelled mainly the typical pineapple (butyric) ester in both jars, which I know very well. The reason for making vinegar was to move away from those esters. Seems my vinegars have become butyric ferments in the meanwhile. Because I adjusted the pH always to around 6 (locked in the acids), I thought it was ok, that it didn't smell like vinegar anymore. I am annoyed that I did this test not much earlier. Now I don't have homemade vinegar for my current Rum project, but a flavor I don't need again (if I need I have enough for blending). So probably I will have to use store bought vinegar unfortunately.

But I try it again:
I have disposed one of my diy vinegars and have started a new one. 1.7l of my current fermenting Rum wash and 200ml live vinegar. Probably the vinegar fermentation won't be finished when I need it. But it's better than nothing.
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

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I did further flavor tests. For example 20ml butyric vinegar + 10ml store bought concentrated vinegar (20% acetic acid) + 20ml ethanol (95%) + 2ml sulfuric acid gave me interesting results. Something like I am looking for. Too much esters, but balanced in a way. Immediately after mixing it, the smell was sharp, but 12h later it became sweet.
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by distiller_dresden »

lurking - verrrry interesting!
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by iwine »

Der wo

I have an old dunder pit that's about 4 years old. and I want to start moving in the same direction that you are with different esters. My Dunder pit has not much of a smell possibly slight sweet like toffee. when I tasted it ( no I didn't swallow and I rinse my mouth out after) it had a vinegar , bitter molasses caramel taste.
Before I start using this very aged Dunder, I have been having issues controlling my pH it has been dropping to 3.8 to 4. my question is I'm trying to get my pH between to 5 to 5.5. I have been using calcium carbonate to get my pH to move with mediocre success. I'm trying to find something that will not affect the flavors of the mash. What are you using to raise the pH to the levels that you want? I would like to get a better handle on controlling my pH before I start using that old Dunder bucket.I hope I'm asking the question properly. Your answer would be greatly appreciated
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by WeegieDistiller »

I would use calcium oxide or calcium hydroxide to bring the ph up. A little can go a long way as its a powder and may not dissolve all at once
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by iwine »

WeegieDistiller wrote:I would use calcium oxide or calcium hydroxide to bring the ph up. A little can go a long way as its a powder and may not dissolve all at once
myself I'm worried about the chemicals that I used because I don't want off taste.
which pH buffer would have the least amount of off tastes?
the only thing that I've ever used is calcium carbonate so far.
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by WeegieDistiller »

Both won't affect flavour in the quantities you'll use, you'll use much much less compared to calcium carbonate.
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by iwine »

WeegieDistiller thanx
How much calcium hydroxide would a person need in a 20 liter wash?
I'm not going to take it as gospel it's just I would like a starting point.
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by WeegieDistiller »

It's not that simple I'm afraid, ph is not linear so the amount to take it 1 point crom say 3.5 to 4.5 is not the same as 4.5 to 5.5.
I would start with a teaspoon (2.5g?) and check ph level when it is dissolved and go from there.
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by still_stirrin »

WeegieDistiller wrote:It's not that simple I'm afraid, ph is not linear so the amount to take it 1 point crom say 3.5 to 4.5 is not the same as 4.5 to 5.5.
I would start with a teaspoon (2.5g?) and check ph level when it is dissolved and go from there.
This is correct.

pH is the measurement of “free hydrogen” (positive) ions in the solution, or more precisely...the “activity of the hydrogen ions. The pH is the negative base-10 log of the activity of the free ions, that is the ability of the hydrogen ions to interact with negatively charged ions such as OH (hydroxide) ions.

As this is a log function, the acidity increases by the power of 10 for every point the pH is lowered. For example, the acid strength is 10 times stronger at a pH=4.0 than it is at a pH=5.0. And the acid is 100 times stronger at a pH=4.0 than it is at a pH=6.0. Continuing, it is 1000 times stronger at pH=4.0 than at pH=7.0, which is considered “pH neutral” as is plain water.

So, when trying to raise the pH, using a “strong base” is desireable. Sodium bicarbonate is NOT a strong base such that a lot would be needed for even a small adjustment. Likewise, the sodium content would become detrimental to the yeast metabolism as well. Sodium hydroxide (lye) is a strong base and can be used to raise pH. But it is also very caustic and dangerous to handle, so use cautiously. A very little bit goes a long way to raising the pH in your ferment.

Calcium, on the other hand, is a good nutrient for yeast activity, making calcium carbonates good. But calcium hydroxide (pickling lime) is even better because of the strong basic ionic bond potential. Pickling lime is used in making dill pickles, so you should be able to find it in the grocery store near the canning supplies.

Just a little “food for thought” that I hope helps you with your “advanced chemistry lesson” you call, “dunder pit”.
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by iwine »

ss and WeegieDistiller thanx

I see said the blind man. it's time to go experiment.
small batches at first. you've got to be able to crawl before you can walk.
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

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pay attention to the safety aspect. last night i got to spend 2 hours in the ER getting my eye flushed out. got some hypochlor 12 (really strong chlorine) in my eye, i was working on a peristaltic pump for my house water system and bumped the stiff 1/4" hose and it flicked a spray right up under my safety glasses.
only a few seconds to the rinse sink...spent 20 minutes flushing at home and then they ran 2 litres of saline through it at the horspital.
got lucky with only very superficial damage in the corner (non visual) part that will heal in a couple days she said.
anything more caustic or acidic would have been badfuckingnews.
feeling lucky :thumbup:
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now i drink for evil.
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by WeegieDistiller »

Its been absolutely ages since any activity on the thread but felt like posting an update if anyone is still into this.

I've had quite a bit of success in having a constant vinegar batch, having stock taken for distillations and replenished with a weak molasses or muscavado wash.

Originally started with a SG of around 1.030 mixed fermentation of yeast and a vinegar mother from a raw cider vinegar and yeast nutrients. I think having the mixed culture works best rather than ferment with yeast and then pitch the mother.

I usually use about 10-20% of the vinegar in a distillation and gives a slight funk with sweetness, acetone and "glue-ish" notes you'd expect from a funky rum but definitely missing the wider range of bacteria you'd find in a proper muck pit.

I hope some folk are still playing about with this as it adds another level to making a decent rum :)

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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by Evil Wizard »

Yeah Weegie, this thread deserves to stay alive. I would toss in a suggestion of using kombucha mothers (scobys) to make the vinegar as they are a symbiosis of yeast and acetobactor, and are now easily obtained in stores. Years ago to get started on kombucha you had to email some guy and he'd drop a chunk in your mailbox.
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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by Oldvine Zin »

Evil Wizard wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:03 pm Yeah Weegie, this thread deserves to stay alive. I would toss in a suggestion of using kombucha mothers (scobys) to make the vinegar as they are a symbiosis of yeast and acetobactor, and are now easily obtained in stores. Years ago to get started on kombucha you had to email some guy and he'd drop a chunk in your mailbox.
Ha Ha years ago we didn't have email... you just had to know somebody.

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Re: Making cane molasses vinegar

Post by zapata »

I think emailing a guy on yahoo is still the best way to get the real ginger beer plant culture.

Anywho, I made vinegar from molasses, and then used that to make a shrub. Or a switchel. Or whatever you call vinegar drinks wherever you come from. Then I left the jar of the vinegar out and it dried up and I see it whenever I open that cabinet and think about starting it back up.
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